R-27ER in close

[Shein]

So with missiles being in the state they're in, most BVR fights end up WVR pretty quickly. The amraam has this nice boresight mode, that can be quite a handful in close.

Does the 27 have a means of firing ERs in close? I lose lock a lot WVR, and I am unable to find them. I've tried vertical scan mode, helmet mounted device mode, and boresight mode but they don't seem to want to lock the target. A lot of them default to the IRST as well.

 

So should I just start using ET's instead? Against humans they're great but against AI the AI magically knows as soon as you launch one and pops flares right away.

[Pilotasso]

Theres plenty to be done with missiles modeling and they are not representative of their performance yet, but having said this the R-27ER is not a dogfighting missile, you can get ckills but its far from ideal at this role. Its a BVR missile. In previous iterations of Flamming cliffs it was the best chase missile, and I expect it to be very competitive in this role when the FM gets sorted out. Its also very goot to get quick kills on targets just above 10 miles because its a fast missile and leaves little time to react. Other than that, if your looking at an agile missile with bigger range than a heat seeker, your best bet lies in the R-27R non extended version.

 

regarding lock stability, you have to play with radar frequencies, for chase you need to set radar in med, for head to head you need high, and when its turning under 40km, select MEd/high mode. Check the manual.

[pepin1234]

The R-27 is a medium range Air-Air missile. In close range work but should be against a non maneuverable target. Also the R-27ER is a heavy missile, so the best enviroment of this missile is medium/high altitud. If the target is heading you, will be hard get a lock with the vertical scanner with termic sensor. Try activate the radar to do the scan with the vertical and after a lock do a fast shoot, in this case is better use the ET with overide first, because in case the target is surprised often they will turn with afterburner, but at low Altitud maybe you will finish the job with one R-73.

[Shein]

Thanks for the info guys, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Here's some context.

Him and I both are detecting each other from far off. We both close, I'll be in range first but I always wait til he shoots first, because a 120 at max range has no chance of hitting me (with the current state of the AFM). I'll wait til I'm in kinematic range to launch. This gets him about 40% of the time. When it doesn't the fight ends up pseudo-WVR, where we're about 15-10 miles apart and I'll frequently lose the lock. Now, I'm too close to work the BVR radar to find him, and too far for the CAC modes to work, and too far for the 73 to be effective. And he's in perfect range for a boresight slammer shot that gets me 75% of the time (especially if he's below me, I can't dive fast enough to beam it) Boresight with the ET would probably work wonders here, haven't tried it because (on the receiving end) it seems to miss an awful lot.

 

So the question is, what is the best tactic at that intermediate BVR not quite WVR 15-10 miles? If I can hold out for a few seconds it goes WVR pretty quick and the 73 is very effective, but in those few seconds I have little to do to force him defensive and he usually gets a high energy slammer shot off at me.

[GGTharos]

When it doesn't the fight ends up pseudo-WVR, where we're about 15-10 miles apart and I'll frequently lose the lock.

 

This isn't pseudo-anything, it's BVR. BVR is an acronym, and it means exactly what it says. If he's too far to see, it's BVR. If you can see him (but he's not close enough to be turning in circles with you) it's WVR.

 

Now, I'm too close to work the BVR radar to find him, and too far for the CAC modes to work, and too far for the 73 to be effective. And he's in perfect range for a boresight slammer shot that gets me 75% of the time (especially if he's below me, I can't dive fast enough to beam it) Boresight with the ET would probably work wonders here, haven't tried it because (on the receiving end) it seems to miss an awful lot.

 

The ET seeker can't see that far against a head-on target usually, but it all depends. If you launch it without a lock it won't hit anything but ground, unless you get really lucky.

 

You've run into basic limitations of the sensors of the aircraft you're using ... that's about all there is to it.

 

So the question is, what is the best tactic at that intermediate BVR not quite WVR 15-10 miles? If I can hold out for a few seconds it goes WVR pretty quick and the 73 is very effective, but in those few seconds I have little to do to force him defensive and he usually gets a high energy slammer shot off at me.

 

Have your radar set up in BVR mode, short range, and hopefuly att he right elevation to pick him up.

[pepin1234]

Well I have made some test using the R-27 and unbelievable my aircraft have reach the target first than the R-27. So right now is not good time to learn. Maybe for the 1.2.4 the missiles get better

[Kenan]

^^Hey I also noticed that. Not exactly reached the target before my R27 but I was very close when I saw the missile hitting it. I don't remember this happening in FC2, perhaps new advanced missile model has something to do with it. :)

[SFAL]

In WVR fights set the radar scan zone to the lowest and ALWAYS turn your radar to the direction of your turn....

it might help if u can set the vertical scan to an axis so u can move it fast....

 

If the ragtet isnt jamming TWS mode is great...

 

Also set display range to 10km so u dont miss him

[squinkys]

Maybe for the 1.2.4 the missiles get better

 

How many times do you need to be told that the missiles are a friggin' work in progress man? I'm sure they'll be improved with each incremental patch until FC3 is actually released. It's a beta after-all...

[pepin1234]

How many times do you need to be told that the missiles are a friggin' work in progress man? I'm sure they'll be improved with each incremental patch until FC3 is actually released. It's a beta after-all...

 

If tomorrow come other guy asking about the missile what do you like I say him?? Of course I know that not work well, that why I have say him better wait a little to learn. What´s your problem?

[squinkys]

If tomorrow come other guy asking about the missile what do you like I say him?? Of course I know that not work well, that why I have say him better wait a little to learn. What´s your problem?

 

A fair point. I've read your complaints in multiple threads regarding the missile's current state and wrongly inferred that you were doing so again here. Apologies.

[159th_Viper]

If tomorrow come other guy asking about the missile what do you like I say him??

 

You say to him that the missiles are currently undergoing major changes and developments and until such time as the Devs categorically state that all work has been completed and the missiles are ready, no comments/complaints regarding missile behaviour can reasonably be made. You also say that yes, it does influence gameplay and missiles do sometimes behave strangely, but for reasons as mentioned, ie W.I.P.

 

What you do not say is.......

'unbelievable my aircraft have reach the target first than the R-27'

 

etc etc etc (.....add all other moans here....)

 

....for the reasons as mentioned above.

[pepin1234]

I really was surprised, because before the actual 1.2.3 hotfix I have found the R-27ER not so bad. The test I have mention I just do today but with the R-27 and happen to me that. So now I am confused. Thats why I say better wait to the 1.2.4. Now better? :P

[RIPTIDE]

So with missiles being in the state they're in, most BVR fights end up WVR pretty quickly. The amraam has this nice boresight mode, that can be quite a handful in close.

Does the 27 have a means of firing ERs in close? I lose lock a lot WVR, and I am unable to find them. I've tried vertical scan mode, helmet mounted device mode, and boresight mode but they don't seem to want to lock the target. A lot of them default to the IRST as well.

 

So should I just start using ET's instead? Against humans they're great but against AI the AI magically knows as soon as you launch one and pops flares right away.

You shouldn't loose lock WVR unless the target has physically moved out of sensor range. Now, if you're in a Su-27 that should not be happening with it's manoeuvrability, and if you keep the target above nose (above nose means that the OLS can see him if he's below you and notches the radar lock) they'll be a hand off.

 

IN this version of FC3/DCSW 1.2.3 you can acquire a target with IRST vertical for example. You'll get a flashing 'LA' or 'NP' when R-27ER's are selected. That means when you shoot the missile the radar comes on and locks and guides. As with a lot of BVR capable missiles, they are a bit sluggish at close range and may fail to pull their body around to chase down a target that has a very fast changing aspect and ~90degree angle off..

[Pilotasso]

Its possible to lose lock in WVR as long as the other guy knows how to notch properly. The radars represented in game are rather old.

[Shein]

you know what? now that i think about it all the times i lost lock, the target was below me... i didnt even think about being notched! i feel really stupid... it wont happen again!

[pepin1234]

you know what? now that i think about it all the times i lost lock, the target was below me... i didnt even think about being notched! i feel really stupid... it wont happen again!

 

 

But when your target be in notch then you can see with your EOS when he is hot enough or have the afterburner on. Anyway the EOS is not 100 % and the elevation is not available now. The vertical work with a target at around 10 km, very useful for mountain.

[RIPTIDE]

you know what? now that i think about it all the times i lost lock, the target was below me... i didnt even think about being notched! i feel really stupid... it wont happen again!

GO inverted ;) Like I said keep him above nose to keep the OLS in line of sight.

[Shein]

GO inverted ;) Like I said keep him above nose to keep the OLS in line of sight.

 

Going inverted thwarts the notch tactic?! Admittedly, I don't understand the science or technicalities behind notching much... explain more?

[NRG-Vampire]

Going inverted thwarts the notch tactic?! Admittedly, I don't understand the science or technicalities behind notching much... explain more?

 

[RIPTIDE]

Going inverted thwarts the notch tactic?! Admittedly, I don't understand the science or technicalities behind notching much... explain more?

No. Going inverted to keep the OLS in line of sight. So if you do loose Radar lock, the OLS picks him up. There is a hand over from Radar lock to IRST Lock. Same as when a target goes defensive/cold from ~45km+, there often is a hand over to IRST lock when the radar fails.

[EtherealN]

 

Not sure what this is supposed to show in this context?