F-18 grip, WARTHOG compatible

[Bushmanni]

I have got a chance to play with a F-18C stick and it definitely felt like a CH stick but better. CH has relatively strong center bump and little progression in the force while the Hornet stick had quite subtle but noticeable center bump but very nice progression in the force but I could still move it around single handedly with ease.

 

Flight control system is completely revamped in Super Hornet so I wouldn't be surprised if the stick also felt different. Super Hornet is pure FBW while legacy Hornet has also a mechanical backup system that the stick has to be able to latch into.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Nice pic thanks 98.

Ok I was able to get some stick time in an airbus airliner today and also contacted a friend who flies the F/A-18 Super Hornet.

 

Firstly the airliner sidestick does in fact feel like Hegykc describes (i.e feels like the CH Fighterstick) in that if you move it away from center and move it in a circle you feel the clunks at the neutral points of pitch and roll.

If you hold it in roll you can move it fore and aft and feel the pitch neutral.

I was surprised at this and expected it to feel smooth like a TM Warthog, but Hegykc is right about this one.

 

The written correspondence from my Super Hornet friend was a little different and the next time I speak to him I may get a clearer picture. He basically said he hadn't really thought about it but didn't think there were noticeable "clunks" at the axis neutrals. He said the force means you definetly know where the center is but the stick movement was very smooth.

 

It's been a couple years since I flew the Boeing sim and to be honest I was so excited I can't remember for sure if there were neutrals but I remember it took two hands to pull it fully aft in a dogfight :) . When I got my Warthog I remember thinking that it was definetly closer to the Hornet than the CH stick.

 

Hope you guys don't mind but I am finding this discussion interesting and plan on asking a few more sources.

 

On the VBK picture it doesn't look like there is a ''clunk'' in the center.

 

F-15 doesn't have a center detent but rather a center area where force is light to allow the pilot to make small corrections with ease, and i would imagine the F-18 was pretty similar.

Center detents is a phenomenon of desktop joysticks.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Firstly the airliner sidestick does in fact feel like Hegykc describes (i.e feels like the CH Fighterstick) in that if you move it away from center and move it in a circle you feel the clunks at the neutral points of pitch and roll.

If you hold it in roll you can move it fore and aft and feel the pitch neutral.

I was surprised at this and expected it to feel smooth like a TM Warthog, but Hegykc is right about this one.

 

Aircraft that have well balanced or 'harmonised' controls feel something along the lines of the following:

 

If it feels like it requires a force of '1' to move the ailerons to get a certain response, it should feel like it requires a force of '2' to move the elevators, and a force of '4' to move the rudder. In other words, the rudder is twice as heavy to move as the stick is fore/aft, which in turn is twice as heavy to move as the stick is side/side (the Spitfire, IIRC, was strange in that it's pitch response was lighter than roll).

 

When you think about it, it isn't that strange that pitch/roll forces are different rather than the same as with the warthog. A conventional aircraft (with simple mechanical connections to the control surfaces) has no mechanical connection between the ailerons and elevators; since this is the arrangement that most pilots will initially learn to fly with, it makes sense to carry this through to more advanced aircraft.

 

Center detents is a phenomenon of desktop joysticks.

 

Certainly for aircraft with simple mechanical controls, but it might not be universally true: the F14 flight manual describes a breakout force required to move the stick out of neutral. I'm not sure if it describes elsewhere what the force is though (it might be quite light). I too was surprised when I read this; I'm not sure why you'd design in such a thing.

[Svend_Dellepude]

The F-15 has a breakout force too, but only on the force sensor. In this case it is to be understood as a deadzone.

Can't say how it is in the F-14 but I can't imagine that there would be an actual detent. It would mske small corrections very difficult.

But i dont know anything about the F-14 so you might be right. :)

Anyway, this thread is about something else, sorry for derail.

[Harle]

I would really like to see a gimbal like this that would retrofit easily into the existing Warthog stick. Pull the TM one out and replace it with this one.

 

I've put my Warthog stick on this BRD mechanism. Feels awesum :thumbup:

[Peter22]

you cant submit the design to thrustmaster?

what this means? are we expecting the F18 any time soon?....:thumbup:...

[Einherjer]

I've put my Warthog stick on this BRD mechanism. Feels awesum :thumbup:

 

 

 

I love your mouse pad! ;)

[Harle]

I believe that Mamba stick is going to "thunk" at each axis Spring neutral when you move it in a circle.

 

This upcoming cam mechanism for Mamba will no longer have that "problem".

[Harle]

I love your mouse pad! ;)

 

[hegykc]

clunks

 

This might be misleading. I was thinking of a very, very soft center. No clicks or clunks of any kind.

 

Imagine a 2 inch bungee cord, now stretch it to 10 inches. Now grab the center of the stretched bungee cord and move it around. You will feel the center strongly, but absolutely no clunks at all. You can achieve that on a joystick by using cams like the Mamba stick, or by using 2 springs on each axis acting against each other. That will give you a very definitive center, but no clunks, clicks or anything that would forcefully "click" you into zero position.

 

The goal is to achieve "infinite" precision around center. And those are the only 2 ways of doing it. Any kind of a mechanical center detent will heavily hinder your precision. And no stick has a bigger center detent than the warthog unfortunately. When using only 1 axis at a time, that is. When you use both, it's smooth of course, but then you have the problem of not getting any tactile feedback on the forces.

 

Anyway, always interesting to hear real pilot's experiences. Keep them coming.

Edited December 21, 2015 by hegykc

[dburne]

You can achieve that on a joystick by using cams like the Mamba stick, or by using 2 springs on each axis acting against each other. That will give you a very definitive center, but no clunks, clicks or anything that would forcefully "click" you into zero position.

 

IJ's U2 NXT Gimbal mod for the Cougar did an excellent job with that. Without a doubt the smoothest operating stick especially around center I have ever wrapped my hand around.

[hegykc]

IJ's U2 NXT Gimbal mod for the Cougar did an excellent job with that. Without a doubt the smoothest operating stick especially around center I have ever wrapped my hand around.

 

Yes, that's a "2 springs acting against each other" system, on each axis. Exactly the same type of mechanism that I'm using in my design. But instead of plane old springs, I'm using 2 hydraulic shocks per axis, with adjustable spring pre-load, replaceable springs for different forces and adjustable oil dampers.

Edited December 21, 2015 by hegykc

[Einherjer]

Yes, that's a "2 springs acting against each other" system, on each axis. Exactly the same type of mechanism that I'm using in my design. But instead of plane old springs, I'm using 2 hydraulic shocks per axis, with adjustable spring pre-load, replaceable springs for different forces and adjustable oil dampers.

 

 

That's pretty clever! Hope you can release it soon :D

Any eta on this?

[dburne]

Yes, that's a "2 springs acting against each other" system, on each axis. Exactly the same type of mechanism that I'm using in my design. But instead of plane old springs, I'm using 2 hydraulic shocks per axis, with adjustable spring pre-load, replaceable springs for different forces and adjustable oil dampers.

 

Nice!

The only drawback in IJ's gimbal mod, is the springs. While very smooth and feels just wonderful, over time they do tend to break and one has to remove the gimbal to replace them.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

An actual hydraulic system would be nice, if it wasn't so costly. Not worth it, in my opinion.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[hegykc]

An actual hydraulic system would be nice, if it wasn't so costly. Not worth it, in my opinion.

 

Well, what do you care what it costs me to make :) All you need to know is that I will price it less than anything else on the market.

[hansangb]

Because I want you to make a buck and stay in business! :)

[spacenavy90]

I'm more worried what shipping is going to look like lol

 

Croatia to US CAN'T be cheap.

[cichlidfan]

In my limited experience in shipping overseas. It seems that the expensive part is crossing the ocean. Once you do that, where it ends up doesn't seem to matter as much, where cost is concerned. If it is different going in the other direction, I don't know.

[Beeroshima]

It was about 39 or 40 dollars for my crosswinds, i believe.

 

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

[rrohde]

I believe that Mamba stick is going to "thunk" at each axis Spring neutral when you move it in a circle.

 

I asked on the VKB forums about this presumed issue, and the VKB designer said this:

"I create 2 sets of cam, with different shape to get different feeling. Special cam for Warthog grip is created too. I hope, the combination of different cams and springs can help you to make what feeling of joystick you want."

 

And, after asking him if the different cams were included or had to be bought extra, here's another tidbit from him:

"All cams are included in gimbal. No need to buy them separately, as we try to give our clients better choice. We are not Saitek"

 

Sounds good to me! Class act. :)

Edited December 22, 2015 by rrohde
Additional info from VKB

[hegykc]

Here you can see where the last 2 weeks of my time went:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2612432#post2612432

 

Another project?? Yes, but it will only add to the affordability of the grips. This is the only way to keep the prices at the level of the big companies, have many products and spread my profit margin over them all, combined. It's also the only way to justify developing and building my own machinery.

 

This is why I won't have to put 200$ on top of my rudder pedals (if I decide to make them), or put 100$ on top of my grips. I will earn 15$ on every grip and not only survive, but grow. Because I'll earn the rest of the 100$ on the 20 other products I have ready for my machines, and the 200 others I cannot wait to get to once I put my army of henchmen to work.

 

Merry Christmas!

[spacenavy90]

This is all nice and all.. But now I'm kind of understanding what people have been saying.

 

Have you actually made any of these items or just modelled them? Because you have a lot of good ideas, but nothing really to show for it so far.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[hegykc]

Behind those renders is a parametric cad model, and G-codes that go into cnc machines, laser cutters and 3d printers. It takes 5-6 hours to make a model and render it. It then takes me 500 - 600 hours to prepare that model for manufacturing. Several times that if it's a complicated model like a grip. But I can't show you lines of g-code.

 

I never render what I don't have prepared for manufacturing.

You can notice other small manufacturers presenting their early WIP models, something you will never see from me, because that is just what you are referring to, a pretty picture, wishful thinking. And you can never be sure a pretty picture will evolve into a product. I post my renders only after the designs are fully ready for manufacturing.

 

You can see a prototype of the grip in the first post. I would have posted one for the irTrack, but the hollydays got me.I have probably more then 20 products prepared by now, most of them have renders, but you only see ones that have those 500 hours spent on making the models manufacturing ready. Prototyping costs money, and I can't spend 100k$ on prototyping 10 products, but I can sure prepare them all the way, then after I am sure that they can be made, I can also develop my own machinery and be sure they will keep it busy 24/7.

 

I only need to press a button to make an actual grip from the "picture" you see, the same goes for the irTrack model.

 

I can't manufacture first, then go look for customers. It should be the other way around, like this.The grips were developed by accident so it might seem like a very long time, but the rTrack will be a product within a month or two.

Edited December 25, 2015 by hegykc

[Red Dog]

Signing in for interest.

I salute the initiative as I went through the 90 pages with awe.

 

I have been personnally involved with the Cougar and the Warthog development and testing, not within TM but just outside as adviser and avid tester. Been fighting some TM flaws since day one but that's another story.

I have been providing the community with spare parts for Cougar for ages since then. During all that time I have been wishing third party grips to be done and I hope to see you succeed in your venture Hegykc.

I'll definitely buy extra grips whenever they become available.

 

Looking forward to it