What causes loss of control?

[Spitfire2170]

When slowing from flight speed to hover, I lose complete control of the helicopter. No input from control stick or rudder pedals can happen. If I engage autopilot it will recover level flight. Then I disengage it resumes normal control. But if it slows again from forward flight the same thing happens. What in the world is going on.

[GGTharos]

You're entering Vortex Ring state. If you're descending too fast in a hover or slow speed, you will fall right now. The only way out of it is to try and get some forward motion again.

[Spitfire2170]

I don't think it is that. I know how those form. I am in level flight at about 40 knots, decending about 200 feet per minute. Then my controls freeze. No rudder, no cyclic, no collective. Pitched up about 5 degrees.

[pyromaniac4002]

In case this isn't happening while falling 2,000 fpm, it could be the transition out of translational lift, and in that case you just have to be on top of it with your cyclic control. You don't have enough forward momentum to keep air flowing cleanly through the nose down pitch of your rotor and you need to pull back on the cyclic. It's a pretty big difference in cyclic position, so I can imagine that would be surprising and make you think something was wrong.

[Spitfire2170]

So do a steeper descent in the Huey than the KA-50. With the KA I usually did a low approach.

[pyromaniac4002]

I don't know if any difference in descent slope is needed or whatever, but just be ready when the shaking develops and you start to pitch nose down to give it a good handful of rearward cyclic. Once you get out of the weird "not sure if I'm hovering or if I'm flying forward" stage it'll smooth out again.

[hannibal]

i know for the black shark, going over 5 m/s on the vertical speed indicator during a hover will cause me to go into a vortex ring state, is it the same for the huey?

[EvilBivol-1]

As your speed drops below about 40 knots, you start losing translational lift and need to start picking up the collective to compensate, which also requires putting in corresponding left pedal to maintain heading. The more rapid the deceleration, the more aggressive you will need to be on the controls. To practice, learn how to to this with a slow deceleration rate. Once you are able to control it there, begin to slow down more aggressively.

 

You can see an example of this in the Landing training video. Note where the controls are initially during final approach and how the collective and pedals are shifted as speed drops down from 40 knots to 0.

Edited May 2, 2013 by EvilBivol-1

[cichlidfan]

What causes loss of control?

 

In my case, the 'loss of control' appears to be caused by major deficiencies in the STSI system. :helpsmilie:

 

:P

[Spitfire2170]

Alright, did more debugging. It is NOT due to any ingame physics such as Vortex Ring State. I lose all input into the simulator. Happened majority of the time when pushing the trim button. Even in level flight at 100 knots it happens now. I push the trim, and lose complete control of the heli. To fix it I have to engage then disengage the autopilot.

[159th_Falcon]

What causes loss of control?

 

In my case, the 'loss of control' appears to be caused by major deficiencies in the STSI system. :helpsmilie:

 

:P

 

Ah yes, the good old Seat To Stick Interface, cause of lots of problems and prone to all kinds of error's.

 

Usually bypassed by the use of an Auto Pilot system.:D

[EvilBivol-1]

Alright, did more debugging. It is NOT due to any ingame physics such as Vortex Ring State. I lose all input into the simulator. Happened majority of the time when pushing the trim button. Even in level flight at 100 knots it happens now. I push the trim, and lose complete control of the heli. To fix it I have to engage then disengage the autopilot.

 

Sounds like you have Centeral Position mode selected for the trimmer. This option freezes your stick and pedal input (if pedal trim is turned on) until you return the stick and pedals to neutral. This is designed for users without a force-feedback stick, who need to re-center the stick (and pedals) after trimming.

 

If you don't want to use the Central Position mode, you can turn it off in OPTIONS>SPECIAL>UH-1H. You can also turn pedal trim on/off there. With Central Position mode off, you need to very quickly (under a second) return the stick (and pedals) to neutral after trimming.

[Devrim]

I don't want to complain. But it's really difficult to control Huey in DCS World. Although in real Huey videos the pilot barely moves cyclic for hover, we have to continuously move the joystick.

 

This is a simulation, it's OK. But .. I don't know, something is weird to me. May be the flight dynamics shouldn't have been transfered exactly. May be it should have been altered for HOTAS users in DCS World... And may be I'm talking nonsense...

[Vlerkies]

maybe

[Watari]

i guess the game mechanic works well but sometimes i have the feeling my x52 pro is not precise enough. i watched a video where a guy said he make corrections in a size of a coin on the cyclic.

i tried to do that everytime but i cant feel it if i am centered or a a small step beside center. the spring inside could be stronger.

so im always hanging a short moment behind the needed input or im oversteering and getting into a oscilation.

 

if this werent enough i have no rudders so i have to twist the stick to compensate the right drift in hover :joystick:

 

yeah im not getting bored :D

[COHuey]

Agreed. I think that there is too much movement of the cyclic required by this sim in all directions. To fly a huey or (probably) any other helicopter, you rest your hand on your right thigh and move the cyclic with about 3 fingers. That is it.... I pulled up to a hover and with force feedback I had to ham-fist it even in level flight and was yo-yo ing everywhere. I wish my joystick didn't have springs pushing back against me. A helicopter isn't necessarily easy to hover, but it doesn't take a lot of physical effort due to hydraulics.

 

My 2cents...

[Lane]

i guess the game mechanic works well but sometimes i have the feeling my x52 pro is not precise enough. i watched a video where a guy said he make corrections in a size of a coin on the cyclic.

i tried to do that everytime but i cant feel it if i am centered or a a small step beside center. the spring inside could be stronger.

so im always hanging a short moment behind the needed input or im oversteering and getting into a oscilation.

 

if this werent enough i have no rudders so i have to twist the stick to compensate the right drift in hover :joystick:

 

yeah im not getting bored :D

 

I let you try imagine the pain with an x52 " not pro" .. its way more easy with a good hotas who allow you to keep the cyclic in a position and can do the correction easely around this point. i take the exemple of take off and hover, you have the cyclic back and on left for correct the rotation etc ) at this point you do only some little correction around this point, but the x52 is not enough precise for do that correctly ( damn ring on the feet of the joystick ). Well it ask a bit more of training, im ok now.. but it remember me air refueling on the A10. Ofc having rudder pedals is too a must.. ( using the joystick, you ofc loose a lot of motricity in your hand by using the rudder this way )

 

As for the OP, i have the feeling what you are experiencing is what i have got some times with TRIM.. no more control after press it and release it, i need reset the Trim for got control again.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Lane

[COHuey]

True, but hydraulically assisted controls don't require much effort to move no matter how new the aircraft is. The OP's comment about transitioning to a hover from level flight should feel more fluid and less jerky. I'm thinking about pulling the springs out of my joystick.

[WildBillKelsoe]

bleed off speed while decending. One trick I learned from old shark days, was to circle the helipad descending while bleeding speed. Then when you're slow and low enough, jimmy the stick back and lower the collective fast. You will lose a skid though. But hey, losing a skid is good if it means ending a mission after landing in the mountains and getting shot at and a nagging Benito.

[Spitfire2170]

It was the central position option. Figured it out, came here to write it and saw something already posted. +1 to you sir.

[PeroperoDokkiri]

I don't want to complain. But it's really difficult to control Huey in DCS World. Although in real Huey videos the pilot barely moves cyclic for hover, we have to continuously move the joystick.

 

This is a simulation, it's OK. But .. I don't know, something is weird to me. May be the flight dynamics shouldn't have been transfered exactly. May be it should have been altered for HOTAS users in DCS World... And may be I'm talking nonsense...

 

RW pilots are moving the stick all the time. So do we in DCS. I think physics are just great. Only adjustment we need for sim purpose is reduced sensitivity on cyclic. Now it's so realistic, that You need a proper long floor mounted cyclic to controll the helicopter unless axis curves are modified via controlls menu. Otherwise it's just a fine tuning based on RL pilots feedback needed regarding FM.

[Cake]

True, but hydraulically assisted controls don't require much effort to move no matter how new the aircraft is. The OP's comment about transitioning to a hover from level flight should feel more fluid and less jerky. I'm thinking about pulling the springs out of my joystick.

 

Do helicopter controls not have artificial feel like fixed wing? I've flown fixed wing aircraft with substantial control forces required because of artificial feel - Much heavier than the springs on a cougar or warthog.

[3instein]

i guess the game mechanic works well but sometimes i have the feeling my x52 pro is not precise enough. i watched a video where a guy said he make corrections in a size of a coin on the cyclic.

i tried to do that everytime but i cant feel it if i am centered or a a small step beside center. the spring inside could be stronger.

so im always hanging a short moment behind the needed input or im oversteering and getting into a oscilation.

 

if this werent enough i have no rudders so i have to twist the stick to compensate the right drift in hover :joystick:

 

yeah im not getting bored :D

 

I was having the same sort of issues,had to keep moving the cyclic all over the place and certainly not in the size of a coin.

It is a Saitek x-45 I use and for a quick nasty mod/fix I got a piece of thin wire and wrapped it around the spring and lifted up and tied it to the bottom of the handle.

It works now like a dream and am now able to make the smallest cyclic controls,and yes now the size of a coin.

 

The stick is now loose and free to move where ever at the slightest of touches,and easy to unwrap the small piece of wire if I want it back to normal.

Cheap and nasty yes but hey it really works like a charm and makes flying the Huey a lot,lot easier without fighting the stick wanting to centre itself all the time, :thumbup:

Mick.

[Devrim]

RW pilots are moving the stick all the time. So do we in DCS. I think physics are just great. Only adjustment we need for sim purpose is reduced sensitivity on cyclic. Now it's so realistic, that You need a proper long floor mounted cyclic to controll the helicopter unless axis curves are modified via controlls menu. Otherwise it's just a fine tuning based on RL pilots feedback needed regarding FM.

Thanks for reply. You're right, "long joystick floor mounted" is in my mind, but not possible for now. If I have it, I know, hovering will be easier.

[Watari]

I dig out my logitech 3d ffb. it was very suprising for me that i can handle the huey way better with it.

 

it was too nervous for me for the bs but the for the huey it works well.

in the first try i could hover without oscilation not because of my improved skill ^^, i simply could feel the force pushing to the right.

i only need to tip and hold against it.

the feedback from the heli to know what and when it starts to do things is really needed . more than in the bs.

the logitech is bad ffb stick i can only imagine how nice things work with a good one.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Watari