About 2000 potential customers?

[mazex]

Some clever guys at the BoS site realized you could see how many people there are in the "Founders" group in that forum and thus have a rough estimate about how many that have pre-purchased BoS). There are probably a bunch more that have not "activated" their keys but as most have pre-purchased to join the beta the majority have probably activated by now.

 

And there are about 2000 that are in that group. Thinking that most WWII sim community folks know about the few games that are in development these days - it may be an indication of how many pledgers it may be possible to attracts to this game without reaching outside "The community"?

 

So - 900 out there that may get convinced to pledge still? And with more advertising there are naturally more. But I guess these 2000 are the regular names we see in all forums, that also are willing to take a risk by sponsoring an unknown product?

 

And I realized my thread title is wrong. Not 2000 potential customers, rather 2000 potential "easy to convince pledgers"?

Edited September 16, 2013 by mazex

[agrasyuk]

Can you rephrase your question in a more compact way perhaps ? Due to my limited brain capacity it keeps evading me.

 

If the question why there is less then expected pledges I can only offer my sentiment :

1. Due to the way rewards are spread I don't see how kicking in is more beneficial then just buying later.

2. I have doubts about team capability to produce Quality software given the past history.

 

 

What we have so far is:

Vid1.Ilya : "I want to make sims great". Oleg ".I built bunch of model planes. I will help Ilya with his questions". Well guess what , i might want to make a gewat sim too but I don't have the capability. And if Oleg is not on a team why bring him in a t all? Only tishin offered any sort of substance with a bit of insight into the project.

 

Vid2: "we went to airshow, we spoke to war hero" great. But that's explains nothing about product.

 

Vid3: "we have a quite somewhat of a hipster girl in our team ". And interview that can be summed up "ok , so tell us about new engine. Sure, its great. Can you explain in what way it is better? Oh in every possible way! Thanks, now let's play a bit of keyboard".

 

I still rwmember clifs of dover (and still almost want my money back) . All I see is alot of beating around the bush and very little substance.

Where am i mistaken? What exactly here should convince me to pledge?

[mazex]

Can you rephrase your question in a more compact way perhaps ? Due to my limited brain capacity it keeps evading me.

 

If the question why there is less then expected pledges I can only offer my sentiment :

1. Due to the way rewards are spread I don't see how kicking in is more beneficial then just buying later.

2. I have doubts about team capability to produce Quality software given the past history.

 

 

What we have so far is:

Vid1.Ilya : "I want to make sims great". Oleg ".I built bunch of model planes. I will help Ilya with his questions". Well guess what , i might want to make a gewat sim too but I don't have the capability. And if Oleg is not on a team why bring him in a t all? Only tishin offered any sort of substance with a bit of insight into the project.

 

Vid2: "we went to airshow, we spoke to war hero" great. But that's explains nothing about product.

 

Vid3: "we have a quite somewhat of a hipster girl in our team ". And interview that can be summed up "ok , so tell us about new engine. Sure, its great. Can you explain in what way it is better? Oh in every possible way! Thanks, now let's play a bit of keyboard".

 

I still rwmember clifs of dover (and still almost want my money back) . All I see is alot of beating around the bush and very little substance.

Where am i mistaken? What exactly here should convince me to pledge?

 

Well - my thought was not ask the question why there are only 1100 that have pledged - it was more thought as an encouragement that there are 2000 that have been convinced to pre-purchase another similar product without really knowing what the will get.

 

But I do agree that the BoS team (that of course have been working for a year so it's not that strange) have released a lot more information so it's not that much a "leap of faith". But still - many of us here have been flying the DCS products for years and know that they are solid. And many have also tried the P-51 in DCS and know that it's good... So for the ones that already have DCS: P-51 it's really not that hard to have a fairly good guess at what this game will be like regarding the important base engine features. If this product just becomes a new map for DCS and some opponents for the P-51 - I will be happy with that actually :)

 

But for many it is naturally important to not just have a nice sandbox with a bunch of WWII aircraft but to also have good immersive single player campaigns etc. Of that we know very little...

 

But - I just wanted to say there are at least 900 "easy" targets out there to convince to take a leap!

Edited September 16, 2013 by mazex

[ishtmail]

What exactly here should convince me to pledge?

The more pertinent question would be: What exactly here should convince you to LEAVE?

 

You've obviously made up your mind that you don't want to pledge, that the fact this is a partnership between RRG and ED means nothing to you, and that the fact the base game with 3 planes at DCS level will be free also means nothing to you.

 

So, obviously, convincing you to pledge would be futile.

[AndyJWest]

There are about 2000 (so far) who have (a) registered at the BoS forum, (b) per-purchased BoS, and © activated their keys. Given that most forums attract many people that read but don't post, I'd not be surprised if the actual BoS pre-purchases were a lot higher - there is after all no point in activating now if you don't intend to post on the forum - all you get right now is a shiny gold/silver icon.

 

As to how many of those who have pre-ordered BoS that would also be interested in the DCS:WW2 Kickstarter, I'd have to suggest that the numbers rather speak for themselves - anyone looking at the BoS forum recently will probably have seen the thread on the Kickstarter, and it has been mentioned on many other air combat sim forums. No doubt some haven't seen it yet, but I suspect that most of the 'community' will be aware of it by now. The response we've seen has to be taken as evidence that not everyone in 'the community' is as enthusiastic as might be hoped - perhaps because us flight-simmers are a cynical and grumpy old lot, and probably aren't the best bet for new-fangled ideas like Kickstarter. Which rather puts the onus on Luthier to inspire us a little more...

[NineLine]

To the OP, it does feel like there are more out there... I am not sure how you drag them in, not everyone is a fan of preorders, this is even less of a sure thing in that case, so some people will be cautious, I hope that with more updates we will see more people pledge...

 

And to the rest of the posts, be careful not to go down the path of bashing the effort here, you may not like the approach taken so far, but it is what it is, and bringing up old issues of sims that are since past is doing nobody any good. Pledge shows support, not pledging shows you dont... we dont need the commentary about it...

[theOden]

I'm all with agrasyuk on this (and andy).

I do have the P51, still not putting a cent in.

There is something like bad rep. and it can be harvested by posting banjo videos as answer to customers complaints.

This time, I'll wait until a working product is out - and has been out for some time - stable - no matter if ED or RRG is to blame.

[agrasyuk]

Mazex. There might be 900 or 99000 targets. All is left is indeed to convince them. to convince me it will take substance, let's see if any more surfaces in the two upcoming weeks.

 

 

... that the fact this is a partnership between RRG and ED means nothing to you,.

 

Oh, that actually means quite a bit - I really hope ED makes the right management desicions and none of the CLOD BS makes it into the DCS world.

[blksolo]

This should have been their kickstarter video......period!!!

Pretty sure this is EDGE

Edited September 16, 2013 by blksolo

[AndyJWest]

Has there been any official statement from DCS regarding the Corsica video? Is it a true representation of what we can expect from gaming software, or is it actually EDGE as seen running on the professional flight simulator platforms it has also been ported to?

 

Incidentally, to clarify - my earlier post wasn't intended to suggest that I wasn't going to back the Kickstarter - I'm sure I will (as soon as I decide how much of the money I can't afford I will be spending anyway...). Instead, I was suggesting that further efforts needed to be made to attract more support.

[Foul Ole Ron]

It's EDGE for commercial flight sim software. That doesn't mean the EDGE landscape will look exactly like that in DCS as there's probably a lot of extra stuff happening in DCS that doesn't happen in a commercial flight sim. But it's probably representative of where the IG is going.

[Darkwolf]

Actually, i'll be prepurchasing BoS intead of pledging RRG. OK. I don't want to start a debate - or push customer to buy "the other option". It's just a testomony of how my brain works. (and it don't always work nice).

 

On one hand, you have a game with a "pre-purchase" option with a (not that far) access to a beta. The game is already running, they is plenty of videos and screens all around the web showing the development. You end up with a complete game.

 

On the other hand, you have a "crowdfunding" option, on a already existing modern simulation, that will give you access to 3 hypothetical airplanes. You have barely nothing else than a few shots of video of a terrain, and pictures of already existing P51 and FW190, (already developped by other parties? (unsure of correct here)). We *may* end up with a WW2 dcs, if enough party decide to mod it.

 

As a lot of people nowaday (at least in Europe)- I'm not in a "comfurtable" situation. Per next month, i will have some more cash, and some to expend in advance. As a satisfied customer of 777 and less satisfied customer of Cliff of Dover, i will get my hard earned money in 777's project. :wub: Of course, if RRG studio release anything, i would buy it in a heartbeat and if i had the money to support both studios, i would pledge without any doubt. but i'm not that rich :cry:

 

 

But between two project, I'm afraid a lot of people like me (ie. Flying DCS and RoF) will lean toward the most advanced one.

 

 

 

With that in mind, to convince more people on that kickstarter, i would suggest to show more material if not any available, then i'm afraid the kickstarter was done a little bit early.

 

Again, that is not to start a debate or anything, and I wish the best of the best to RRG studios. :thumbup:

Edited September 16, 2013 by Darkwolf

[Hans-Joachim Marseille]

A Chinese IL-2 BoS forum member translated the DCS WWII Kickstarter and P-51D manual in Chinese ... pretty nice chap.

Now imagine the numbers you'd get with Chinese gamers in.

This was posted on the BoS forum, DCS section today.

 

http://bbs.dof.cn/index.php?showtopic=110526

http://bbs.dof.cn/index.php?showtopic=109339

 

Edited September 16, 2013 by Hans-Joachim Marseille

[Feuerfalke]

Actually, i'll be prepurchasing BoS intead of pledging RRG.

 

You are not alone, mate.

 

I spent 200 Euros on CloD and my money surely isn't growing on trees, either. So I am listening very closely, now. And so far, they've honestly not restored my faith.

 

I don't want an excuse or explanation, but I'd like something to believe that things have been learned from the past except keeping UBI out of the game.

[gavagai]

Actually, i'll be prepurchasing BoS intead of pledging RRG. OK. I don't want to start a debate - or push customer to buy "the other option". It's just a testomony of how my brain works. (and it don't always work nice).

 

On one hand, you have a game with a "pre-purchase" option with a (not that far) access to a beta. The game is already running, they is plenty of videos and screens all around the web showing the development. You end up with a complete game.

 

On the other hand, you have a "crowdfunding" option, on a already existing modern simulation, that will give you access to 3 hypothetical airplanes. You have barely nothing else than a few shots of video of a terrain, and pictures of already existing P51 and FW190, (already developped by other parties? (unsure of correct here)). We *may* end up with a WW2 dcs, if enough party decide to mod it.

 

As a lot of people nowaday (at least in Europe)- I'm not in a "comfurtable" situation. Per next month, i will have some more cash, and some to expend in advance. As a satisfied customer of 777 and less satisfied customer of Cliff of Dover, i will get my hard earned money in 777's project. :wub: Of course, if RRG studio release anything, i would buy it in a heartbeat and if i had the money to support both studios, i would pledge without any doubt. but i'm not that rich :cry:

 

 

But between two project, I'm afraid a lot of people like me (ie. Flying DCS and RoF) will lean toward the most advanced one.

 

 

 

With that in mind, to convince more people on that kickstarter, i would suggest to show more material if not any available, then i'm afraid the kickstarter was done a little bit early.

 

Again, that is not to start a debate or anything, and I wish the best of the best to RRG studios. :thumbup:

 

I'm also a RoF customer (spent hundreds on it), and I am choosing to support DCS WW2 and not BoS. What I see in the DCS P-51 is proof of concept. All I have seen from BoS is videos and I have no way to know whether or not it will be good, whether there will be the same longstanding FM issues, whether there will be dozens of exotic aircraft modifications like RoF, and so on... As a piece of software RoF is brilliant. As a demonstration of commitment to historical accuracy it is sorely wanting, and I do pay attention to that stuff when they ask me to buy again.

 

I would council you to reconsider your position. I hope for the best from BoS and if I hear good things about it after release I will probably buy it, too, even if it is going to be flight sim light compared to DCS.

Edited September 16, 2013 by gavagai

[Hans-Joachim Marseille]

Why not bet on two horses? You don't have to spend all on one.

Standard edition BoS goes for $50, with early access in winter.

Premium goes for $90, with early access in autumn and two extra planes (La-5 and FW-190 A-3).

Love the Bf 109 and He 111, which are included in the base set of 8 planes. Ah, the Heinkel ...

 

Anyone seen this movie? Pretty decent flick, based on a true story.

 

[gavagai]

Forget it. Don't want to pollute this thread.

Edited September 16, 2013 by gavagai

[baronWastelan]

Forget about what other people are doing. The KS campaign is on track to meet its primary goal -- it doesn't need your "creative input". If you want to contribute to a new state-of-the art software project, make a pledge. If you don't want to, then don't pledge. Nobody here cares about opinions of other titles.

[Hans-Joachim Marseille]

As I see it, this thread is about the possibility to get more of the "other sim" to pledge.

In my case, I've pledged and will also purchase the "other sim".

I care for decent WWII sims, regardless of bad sentiments (which have no place here).

[Azazel]

Can you rephrase your question in a more compact way perhaps ? Due to my limited brain capacity it keeps evading me.

 

If the question why there is less then expected pledges I can only offer my sentiment :

1. Due to the way rewards are spread I don't see how kicking in is more beneficial then just buying later.

2. I have doubts about team capability to produce Quality software given the past history.

 

 

What we have so far is:

Vid1.Ilya : "I want to make sims great". Oleg ".I built bunch of model planes. I will help Ilya with his questions". Well guess what , i might want to make a gewat sim too but I don't have the capability. And if Oleg is not on a team why bring him in a t all? Only tishin offered any sort of substance with a bit of insight into the project.

 

Vid2: "we went to airshow, we spoke to war hero" great. But that's explains nothing about product.

 

Vid3: "we have a quite somewhat of a hipster girl in our team ". And interview that can be summed up "ok , so tell us about new engine. Sure, its great. Can you explain in what way it is better? Oh in every possible way! Thanks, now let's play a bit of keyboard".

 

I still rwmember clifs of dover (and still almost want my money back) . All I see is alot of beating around the bush and very little substance.

Where am i mistaken? What exactly here should convince me to pledge?

 

For me this argument does not really register because we're a small community and if we don't back projects like this then we really might end up not getting them at all. Or even worse, we have to accept inferior projects put out by big labels that are most likely not DCS quality. Also, for most of the individual backers, we're not talking about throwing down fat stacks of cash here (although I'm pretty sure that's what it costs to produce these sims). If you like flight sims, you should chip in a few bucks regardless. If it tanks, at least you can say you tried to help. Personally, if I was bitter about everything I spent $40 bucks on that didn't meet my expectations then I'd never get to sleep, but that's me. Its a gamble either way, but for me this kickstarter at least has better odds then Vegas. Where is that terrain anyways? har har.

[Pman]

my 2cents:

 

I have done a small pledge with RRG, until I actually see something from them I wont up it as I simply havent seen anything they have done yet bar a couple of rough screens from their map. All the other screen shots are other peoples work and not thiers

 

No renders of aircraft or anything yet and as it doesnt look like we will hit the stretch goals all my pledge is getting me is beta access, well tbh I am not that fussed about that.

 

I am more likely to get the premium BoS pack as there is actually stuff for me to see and evaluate there, where as here its abit of a blind ball.

 

Dont get me wrong I'm hoping Ilya is going to do a good job, but at the moment I havent seen enough to make me want to part with more then $10

 

Pman

[Phantom88]

I remember a time,when it seemed "First Person Shooter" games were the only games Big companies wanted to produce,or had any interest in.

 

And it seemed our little niche "Flight Sim" hobby was all but DEAD!!

Now look at what's happening:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

We should all be rejoicing in the fact we have so many upcoming sims,and so many,many choices:smilewink:

[mmaruda]

For me this argument does not really register because we're a small community and if we don't back projects like this then we really might end up not getting them at all. Or even worse, we have to accept inferior projects put out by big labels that are most likely not DCS quality. Also, for most of the individual backers, we're not talking about throwing down fat stacks of cash here (although I'm pretty sure that's what it costs to produce these sims). If you like flight sims, you should chip in a few bucks regardless. If it tanks, at least you can say you tried to help. Personally, if I was bitter about everything I spent $40 bucks on that didn't meet my expectations then I'd never get to sleep, but that's me. Its a gamble either way, but for me this kickstarter at least has better odds then Vegas. Where is that terrain anyways? har har.

 

Sorry man, but agrasyuk is right. There are a lot of people who are disappointed with Oleg an Ilya and really hate their guts. The fact that the KS vids so far have shown nothing substantial only adds to the pool of doubts, should there be any. You will not convince someone who once trusted the devs and was fooled to do it again.

 

As for what you have said about this being a small community and not many sims being made... Well, let me be blunt. Noone is making sims out of charity. It's a business and it goes two ways. I pay for something, I expect it to work at least. That 40 bucks for me is a week of working a job I hate, I am going to think twice before I spend it on a bunch of promises. Successful Kickstarter projects launch with the devs showing they are a capable team, presenting their work so far so that the target audience can see what they are spending their money on. Here we have seen nothing and Ilya says they can deliver a final product within a year. Cliffs took about 6 years to develop and it was a mess. The DCS Mustang alone took around a year to be polished. And here we have not even seen a single screenshot showing say the P-47 cockpit. I suggest you look here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89720 see what has already been made, look at the post dates. Are we even close to a beta release?

 

There are those people who can afford it and are overly enthusiastic about anything announced and I will risk a statement that these are the people who kicked in so generously at the beginning. Those who have doubts would rather wait for something substantial but the majority will wait for the final product. Becasue lets face it, there is a growing trend where game developers promise stuff, ask for money and deliver an eternal beta afterwards. Sure we can say 'okay', the market is what it is and not expect too much, but it that really a healthy business relationship? How can we be sure this won't invite scammers in?

 

Personally I don't mind giving some cash to companies that need some support to finish what they have started, but currently DCS: WWII is just a lot of promises. Don't expect people to hand in their hard earned cash just because the market is tough.

 

I would really like this project to succeed, but there is absolutely nothing that would fill me with any confidence about it's success. And I am not the guy who bought Cliff of Dover and was disappointed and angry.

[baronWastelan]

Here we go with the "Oleg an Ilya ruined my life" posts.

[Charly_Owl]

Sorry man, but agrasyuk is right. There are a lot of people who are disappointed with Oleg an Ilya and really hate their guts. The fact that the KS vids so far have shown nothing substantial only adds to the pool of doubts, should there be any. You will not convince someone who once trusted the devs and was fooled to do it again.

 

As for what you have said about this being a small community and not many sims being made... Well, let me be blunt. Noone is making sims out of charity. It's a business and it goes two ways. I pay for something, I expect it to work at least. That 40 bucks for me is a week of working a job I hate, I am going to think twice before I spend it on a bunch of promises. Successful Kickstarter projects launch with the devs showing they are a capable team, presenting their work so far so that the target audience can see what they are spending their money on. Here we have seen nothing and Ilya says they can deliver a final product within a year. Cliffs took about 6 years to develop and it was a mess. The DCS Mustang alone took around a year to be polished. And here we have not even seen a single screenshot showing say the P-47 cockpit. I suggest you look here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89720 see what has already been made, look at the post dates. Are we even close to a beta release?

 

There are those people who can afford it and are overly enthusiastic about anything announced and I will risk a statement that these are the people who kicked in so generously at the beginning. Those who have doubts would rather wait for something substantial but the majority will wait for the final product. Becasue lets face it, there is a growing trend where game developers promise stuff, ask for money and deliver an eternal beta afterwards. Sure we can say 'okay', the market is what it is and not expect too much, but it that really a healthy business relationship? How can we be sure this won't invite scammers in?

 

Personally I don't mind giving some cash to companies that need some support to finish what they have started, but currently DCS: WWII is just a lot of promises. Don't expect people to hand in their hard earned cash just because the market is tough.

 

I would really like this project to succeed, but there is absolutely nothing that would fill me with any confidence about it's success. And I am not the guy who bought Cliff of Dover and was disappointed and angry.

 

I understand your point. But I think first and foremost that Ilya and his team are engineers FIRST. They want to spend more time doing the actual game than marketing for it. I understand that mentality because I'm often acting the same way: do the job first, and THEN explain to people why it's awesome. Let the marketing stuff to people who are good at it.

 

The thing is: most of his team is the same way and Ilya has to do a lot of things by himself. It's not perfect, as you may know... but he's running on limited resources for a project that is not "officially kickstarted" yet (we haven't reached the 100K yet). They don't have the funds to have awesome CGI trailers a la War Thunder. They just hope to convince you to trust them, and let the final product speak for itself. I trust him, because I know what he did for Cliffs of Dover (fixing the game with a skeleton crew without even being paid at some point, and hence allowing us ATAG people to enjoy ourselves to the fullest with the help of Team Fusion). Very few people realize how far his dedication for his games really went. And he has the courage to come back after all that happened. That takes guts.

 

Ilya is not a marketing person. We all know that. But I have rarely seen someone so brutally honest to its community. He lets us know the good, the bad and the ugly no matter the circumstances. And I think that in this kind of business, it's something that should be more encouraged. I'd rather have someone telling me the inconvenient truth than sugarcoat everything for the sake of sales and marketing.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Charly_Owl