AI in DCS

[Bucic]

The best Ai I ever flew against was in Battle of Britan:Wings of Victory II.

The Ai coder called "Buddeye" created an incredible experience against the computer controlled aircraft, against which I found myself competing against various manouvres including Yo-Yo's, rolling scissors, Immleman's.and many more. It truly felt like you were up against a real player. My favourite moment was low on the deck while chasing an enemy I had damaged. The aircraft tried to pull a climb but went into a stall and hit the deck...incredible to watch when most aircraft under Ai fly 'perfect' routines.

 

Someone call "Buddeye"....give him the job now :)

As I proposed in the first AI thread http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=113817

Compared to BoB 2 the AI in DCS needs to be developed, not improved :)

[nick10]

The ai is also immune to g forces. No pilot could fly like the Dora

[Bucic]

The ai is also immune to g forces. No pilot could fly like the Dora

This was an issue also in the praised BoB2 AI, I must admit. It made you prefer vertical fighting even when piloting a Spit or a Hurri. An interesting outcome, don't you think? :)

[Merlin-27]

The ai is also immune to g forces. No pilot could fly like the Dora

 

So then what is the explanation for the human pilots who fly directly behind the AI and often in a superior manner? Would you say the G-forces are also inaccurate on the client side?

 

It can be done and is done on a daily basis. I'm not saying the AI cannot improve... But as far as the flying, Seems pretty good to me. There is the occasional lawndart into the deck and you will not see too many "human-like" mistakes but from what I've seen the gun accuracy is the only obvious "problem" with it, along with the damage model of course.

[PeroperoDokkiri]

I hope they won't be able to see through mountains, buildings or coulds either!!

Trees are invisible and non existent for them, so...

[mmaruda]

So then what is the explanation for the human pilots who fly directly behind the AI and often in a superior manner? Would you say the G-forces are also inaccurate on the client side?

 

A normal pilot would probably pass out of puke after several minutes of such a thing. DCS is a game though and the AI and player can do loops all day long. Pilot fatigue is not simulated in DCS.

[Merlin-27]

A normal pilot would probably pass out of puke after several minutes of such a thing. DCS is a game though and the AI and player can do loops all day long. Pilot fatigue is not simulated in DCS.

 

That's all good but my point was that "in game" you will not pass out or puke and have the same "capabilities" as the AI.

[Der_Fred]

Well... let's hope that they take a note (or two) out of TD's current IL2 AI.

This AI gives you a good working over, and if you not careful you'll be in a parachute very quickly. This AI gives you, maybe not physical fatigue, but certainly a lot of mental fatigue.. which is halfway there to reality

 

The current DCS AI zoom/climb thing is really.. well boring.

 

:)

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

ok, after following this thread, i think ill need to express myself a bit different...

of course there will always be room for improvement.AI will probably never reach a level of perfection.

there are certainly issues which should be adressed that i didnt mention in my OP.regardless, i think, that the "sniper"-aiming skills of the AI is on top of the most pressing issues.

its no problem at all if you fight only 1 AI plane at a time, because with a bit of training, it wont get anywhere near your tail.but as soon as you are in an air battle with more planes involved, this problem becomes really apparent.

besides, i think(only a guess) that this issue is one of the most easy to fix/improve.

[Nate--IRL--]

You might try altering the AI skill level in the Editor.

 

Nate

[Merlin-27]

You might try altering the AI skill level in the Editor.

 

Nate

 

From what I've seen that has no effect on accuracy. As David said, it only becomes an issue when you are facing multiple bandits. The second, uber-wingman, will place almost every round, no matter the range or deflection, on your kite. You typically lose your gunsight, engine or prop governor if the AI gets any hits on you. It tends to ruin some great AI interactions. The "easy" solution would be to force some level of inaccuracy to give the human client at least a second to attempt some evasion tactic.

[Mysticpuma]

Interesting update on Ai in another Flight Sim in development:

 

'Turn and Fire' – A basic mode. Useful if a target is near the firing line and all AI needs to do is adjust aim by turning and then fire.

'Vertical Power Climb' - The Plane sharply climbs on maximum engine power, effectively converting aircraft speed into altitude. Usually this maneuver is used for saving energy in a situation where the AI has a higher speed over enemy and may fly past it.

'Immelmann' – The plane makes half of a loop climb. It’s useful in the same situations as Vertical Power Climb.

'Steep Upward Climb' - The plane sharply climbs, but not vertically. The general idea of this maneuver is the same as of Vertical Power Climb - converting speed to altitude.

'Combat Turn' - The plane climbs following a tight spiral trajectory, reducing its speed. This can be used after engaging a target from behind.

'Upward Spiral' - The plane turns around to a general direction of a target on maximum engine thrust, keeping the same speed and gaining altitude. This algorithm is used if a target is more than 100-200 meters above and to the side (not directly ahead).

'Downward spiral' - The AI engages in this turn if a target is more than 100-200 meters lower and not directly ahead. Can be used to shake a pursuing enemy from AI tail if altitude is high enough (downward spiral draws very high and prolonged positive G).

'Max Power Turn' - The AI turns in horizontal plane using maximum engine thrust (and drawing maximum G) if a target is in forward hemisphere and on roughly the same altitude.

'Standard Turn' The AI turns in horizontal plane using maximum engine thrust, measuring out excess G to achieve optimal turning speed. This turn is used in all other situations.

'High Yo-Yo' - During the turn, the AI slightly reduces the roll for a short time, trading a bit of speed for a bit of altitude. This is useful if speed is much higher than optimal during the turn and AI converts part of it to altitude to not squander it.

'Low Yo-Yo' - During the turn, AI slightly increases the roll for a short time, trading a bit of altitude for a bit of speed, reducing the time needed for a turn, but increasing excessive G. AI does this if angle to target doesn't reduce for a prolonged amount of time (this means that two planes can't 'out-turn' each other).

'Split-S' - The AI plane rolls over 'on its back' and follows with Immelmann with maximum engine thrust resulting in maximum excessive G. This can be used for shaking an enemy from AI's tail if it has a sufficient altitude reserve.

'Fishtail' - AI adjusts the rudder, simultaneously compensating for it to keep flying straight. This may lead an enemy firing at it from far distance into thinking that it is changing course and aim wrong.

'Rolling Scissors’ - The AI plane reduces speed and makes turns to left and right to shake a pursuing enemy, if altitude reserve is insufficient, but AI plane is more stable at low speeds than an enemy plane.

‘Tuck-under break’ - The AI pilot breaks the nose up and then starts a barrel roll. Just another trick used to drop the enemy off the tail. This isn’t a simple manoeuvre and it’s only available to AI aces.

‘Defensive turn’ - The AI pilot holds the enemy on a perpendicular course, permanently ascending or descending. It’s usually used to prevent enemy from precise aiming especially for attacks from a long range.

 

Apart from the new multipath system for the close combat manoeuvre that depends on the AI level, we have we worked on adding more realism to the AI fighter behaviour in dog fight:

- We have implemented a system of limiting the visibility of a target for the AI depending on a specific cockpit construction. It is adjusted in a unique way for every plane and takes into consideration not only all pilots’ head turns, but all other possible moves as well (when a pilot half rises, ducks or looks over the shoulder).

- In the dog fight state we have introduced a new target seeking sub-mode when a target was lost for some reason (AI pilot banks the plane and tries to acquire the target once again. If this doesn’t help the AI pilot banks the plane in a counter direction until he decides that he has completely lost the target).

- Also in the dog fight state, for the cases when the target is way too high we have implemented the mode of the most optimal climbing for the AI pilot to be able to could catch up the target.

- While deviating from enemy fighters, attack planes and bombers now not only make evasive manoeuvres, but also nose dive when the altitude and the distance to the enemy allow them to do that.

- Evading fighter attacks, bomber and assault planes are not limited with the S-turns anymore, but they may also try power diving when altitude and distance to the enemy are appropriate.

- Later this winter we plan to add a forward air controller that would be evaluating the combat situation in the sector and direct planes to the targets using radio-comms. And right after that, AI-pilots will also be taught to coordinate their attacks with the air controller.

- Along with the existing system of attacking ground targets the AI planes will be able to use unguided missiles when diving, while the aircraft will get to drop bombs in a vertical dive.

- With the higher speeds and the variety of firearms, we needed to improve both the calculation and leading of the target for precise shooting. AI pilots are not just considering target’s motion parameters, but also have in mind the difference in ballistics for different cannons and machine guns.

 

Moreover:

- AI pilots were taught to exchange radio traffic with the airfield and with their leader/wingmen.

- AI planes were also taught to perform taxiing-out to take off and perform the taxiing operation after landing.

- And of course the AI planes now know how to use systems that were not available during World War I. but appeared during WWII: retractable landing gears, flaps, blocking the tail wheel, navigation lights, landing lights, cockpit lamps, air brakes, wheel brakes, air-brakes, wheel-brakes, controllable supercharger, speed governor, operable canopy, parachuting, etc.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

You might try altering the AI skill level in the Editor.

 

Nate

 

yeah im afraid, just like merlin said, that this has no effect on gun accuracy whatsoever...

[Nate--IRL--]

yeah im afraid, just like merlin said, that this has no effect on gun accuracy whatsoever...

 

I'll look into that.

 

Nate

[20thBG_Blackwolf]

Read that as well MP! I'd be happy with a Dora that can re-grow a tail..mine get shot off so much that could come in handy! :D

[Nate--IRL--]

yeah im afraid, just like merlin said, that this has no effect on gun accuracy whatsoever...

 

It seems there is a difference in behaviour. The Excellent skill level fires closer to the target than the Average Skill level, and is less wasteful.

 

That said, it is still pretty accurate on Average.

 

Nate

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

ok i dont deny that,...maybe you are right on this...but still just like you said, they are pretty accurate, and thats a big understatement.

we tested it a couple of times,changing the skill level, and while flying, we didnt notice any difference...

[Nate--IRL--]

Test with AI v AI so you can actually see what they are doing. Even against cargo planes the AI isn't a one shot kill every time, but it doesn't take it long at all to send it down in flames.

 

I think there is a case for less accuracy on the Average Setting.

 

Nate

[BBQ]

Great thread and example of how team not only actually listens to feedback from community but seriously considers implementing it!

[Merlin-27]

Test with AI v AI so you can actually see what they are doing. Even against cargo planes the AI isn't a one shot kill every time, but it doesn't take it long at all to send it down in flames.

 

I think there is a case for less accuracy on the Average Setting.

 

Nate

 

I think the important part there to remember is that the AI does not use the same damage model as a client. You will not hit the AI once and get one of the critical hits we all see on regular basis when jumped by AI (prop governor, fuel leak, engine MP drop) So it may take the AI much more effort to destroy another AI but that does not indicate accuracy to me...just time to complete destruction of the airframe.

[Nate--IRL--]

I define accuracy as actually striking the target.

 

Nate

[Merlin-27]

I define accuracy as actually striking the target.

 

Nate

 

And that is fair to say. So then extreme accuracy would be hitting very specific & challenging targets, correct? This is our contention. If the AI just hit the wing or fuselage there would be no complaints. The fact that they consistently disable your prop governor and other vital systems at the exact moment you are aware of their presence is by my definition, extreme. The only defense of this is to not engage bandits that have a numerical advantage. While not the end of the world, it does limit possible scenarios and in the end we are just hoping for a near realistic experience. I'm not trying to speak for David, but I am only offering this input as constructive information to make the product better. And just to clarify, this opinion is the result of many many encounters with the AI and is not just a first impression.

[SlipBall]

My feeling is, if I allow AI to get in a favorable position on me, why then I should expect the worst. Just like if it were reversed and then it is me who has a chance to be the crack shot. We are talking an awful amount of AI bullets, they would naturally find vital areas.

[Merlin-27]

To illustrate the point I created a mission specifically for this. The human player is pursuing a bandit and is followed by another at a range of 1 nmi. Both AI aircraft are slightly heavier. Everyone starts with identical speed & altitude.

 

I found the AI at both High & Average begin firing (and hitting) at 0.5-0.6 nmi. That is over 3000 ft. Hard to imagine the convergence of those guns to be set that far out...especially the wing cannon, but almost every one of those projectiles will at least come close to it's intended destination.

 

We are talking an awful amount of AI bullets, they would naturally find vital areas.

 

The issue is not with volume of bullets. If you have played SP & MP you will see a HUGE disparity in firepower effectiveness. I am not saying the top level AI shouldn't posses excellent abilites but "average" pilots do not regularly issue a high deflection kill shot at maximum range 9 out of 10 times.

 

Just sayin'

ImpendingDestruction-HIGH.miz

ImpendingDestruction-AVERAGE.miz

Edited October 12, 2013 by Merlin-27
Spelling Error

[SlipBall]

To illustrate the point I created a mission specifically for this. The human player is pursuing a bandit and is followed by another at a range of 1 nmi. Both AI aircraft are slightly heavier. Everyone starts with identical speed & altitude.

 

I found the AI at both High & Average begin firing (and hitting) at 0.5-0.6 nmi. That is over 3000 ft. Hard to imagine the convergence of those guns to be set that far out...especially the wing cannon, but almost every one of those projectiles will at least come close to it's intended destination.

 

 

 

The issue is not with volume of bullets. If you have played SP & MP you will see a HUGE disparity in firepower effectiveness. I am not saying the top level AI shouldn't posses excellent abilites but "average" pilots do not regularly issue a high deflection kill shot at maximum range 9 out of 10 times.

 

Just sayin'

 

 

Thanks' for the free missions!:P...only flew against the average fellow because the sun light behind me is messing with trackir. Will try them again later. What I did, when I noticed tracers going by my front screen, I dropped the gear and chopped the throttle. Now I was behind him at close quarters, I had to keep resetting trackir so I ended the mission. Will try again latter on, against the ace. :joystick: