Lacking P-51D manual

[Bucic]

I've just skimmed through it and there seem to be close to no performance data! No corner speed, no performance charts. Somehow someone thought diving recovery is all there is to it apparently. I sure hope the manuals coming from RRG will get at least supplemented.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Bucic

[Derbysieger]

I haven't seen any of this in the original manual either. The manual provided by ED is pretty much a copy of it.

[SlipBall]

That information is probably found in one of the other P-51 available manuals. Some are cheap while others (Originals) are very expensive...do a google

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1944-ARMY-AIR-FORCE-P-51-MUSTANG-FIGHTER-PILOT-TRAINING-FLIGHT-MANUAL-HANDBOOK-/221282557920?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338577dfe0

 

 

and another

 

http://www.amazon.com/P-51-Mustang-Pilots-Flight-Manual/dp/1411690400

Edited October 7, 2013 by GT 5.0

[Bucic]

I gotta say the P-51 manual is probably the best simulation manual i have ever used. Its first class imo.

 

It makes any manual found in IL2/CloD look like a joke.

Well, from what I saw it looks like a joke compared to DCS BS manual. I don't recall I had to seek any performance data in external sources. And what was even the point of mentioning the CoD manuals? They were barely manuals.

[Derbysieger]

Well I used this Training Manual to learn the P-51D: http://de.scribd.com/doc/34811808/North-American-P-51-Mustang-Pilot-Training-Manual

 

The only charts I couldn't find in the flight manual by ED were the flight planning charts.

[Bucic]

@Tommy

You are absolutely right, when you set such a low denominator.

 

If you don't know what useful parameters are missing please don't expect me to reply to your posts.

 

@Derbysieger, GT

Thanks for the resources.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Bucic

[Royraiden]

@Tommy

You are absolutely right, when you set such a low denominator.

 

If you don't know what useful parameters are missing please don't expect me to reply to your posts.

 

@Derbysieger, GT

Thanks for the resources.

 

I wonder what ATAG guys use to train the newcomers.

 

ATAG?What do the ATAG guys have to do with all this?

[Bucic]

You chimed in with a pointless argument and no clue on what I'm talking about. I honestly don't see how you could expect this to unfold in a different way.

 

ATAG?What do the ATAG guys have to do with all this?

I posted the thought in the wrong thread, sorry. It was meant for the dogfighting guides topic.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Bucic

[NineLine]

Lets not get all defensive and personal guys... Also note that the P-51 had its own forums, issues with it and its documentation should go there, at the end of the day it is still an ED product.

[Bucic]

Sorry.

 

In any case I'd be grateful for any resources you guys use to supplement the official manual.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

You chimed in with a pointless argument and no clue on what I'm talking about. I honestly don't see how you could expect this to unfold in a different way.

I don't know what you're talking about. That info you mean, corner speed, performance charts, is a modern one for a jet combat manual. My Cessna manual also haven't any of that info, and real P-51 manual from where DCS is a copy haven't either as you can see downloading any of the many available if you didn't yet. Real pilots in WWII learnt to fly that way mate so no info in aircraft manual. If you want to know just google "P-51 corner speed".

 

About performance charts, you have the performance yet stated in manual, don't know why it should be presented as a chart.

 

 

Don't misunderstand me, it's fine you want all the info, but you blame DCS for doing it just like the real thing mate... that's weird...

 

S!

[NineLine]

Sorry.

 

In any case I'd be grateful for any resources you guys use to supplement the official manual.

 

 

They are always willing to improve every aspect of their products, including documentation. If you can give examples of what is missing from the ED manual compared to the real world manuals that would have been available to pilots we could request they be added.

[Altflieger]

I've just skimmed through it and there seem to be close to no performance data! No corner speed, no performance charts. Somehow someone thought diving recovery is all there is to it apparently. I sure hope the manuals coming from RRG will get at least supplemented.

If you'd read Shaw's book you'd understand that in 1944 they didn't have the concepts of corner speed or doghouse plots (not beyond the factory). DCS manual is exactly what pilots got given then. If it was good enough for them it's good enough for you:). You better get used to reading some of the people you'll be up against have libraries of technical stuff and have been reading for ten years plus. There are no short cuts, end of. Even for simmers!

[Mike Busutil]

Reading does not help with kills, Putting bullets into the cockpit does :D

[Sharpe]

Reading does not help with kills, Putting bullets into the cockpit does :D

 

knowing how the pilots of the day did it, gives a nice little extra dimension to it, don't you think?

[Sharpe]

Bucic, the only thing I can think of that you can try, is looking for the Air Ministry pilots notes on the Mustang. The chances of you finding them....small. (no offense intended)

[Bucic]

If you'd read Shaw's book you'd understand that in 1944 they didn't have the concepts of corner speed or doghouse plots (not beyond the factory). DCS manual is exactly what pilots got given then. If it was good enough for them it's good enough for you:). You better get used to reading some of the people you'll be up against have libraries of technical stuff and have been reading for ten years plus. There are no short cuts, end of. Even for simmers!

I think I like the cut of your jib, as Mower used to say :) (what is he up to recently?!)

 

They are always willing to improve every aspect of their products, including documentation. If you can give examples of what is missing from the ED manual compared to the real world manuals that would have been available to pilots we could request they be added.

Let's do a quick run then.

(topic of interest / search term / results in the DCS P-51D manual)

minimum speed / minimum speed / none - obviously wrong search term, my fault

stall speed / stall / p.112, clearly laid out

corner speed / corner / none

climb performance / climb / "Optimum climb to altitude speed is approximately 170 mph." on p.130 and that would be it.

prohibited maneuvers / prohibit / none

prohibited maneuvers / snap / p. 114, OK

limitations / limit / the whole chapter from page 100 (as chapters are not numbered)

 

 

My notes:

A general thought: Clearly the manual is focused on flight envelope i.e. the aircraft limitations, not so much on how to get the most out of its capabilities. One could say that ** (see below) but then I say - if the manul can 'An old Indian legend' I guess it could sport some more performance data as well.

 

Climb performance is the biggest omission in the manual, IMO.

**All of the omissions I point out could be explained the flight manual is for just 'normal flying'** but even in such a case a much more information is needed to properly (and safely) operate an aircraft. Climb performance charts would ba a good addition. Such chart would also spear us using one of these monsters :) http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51-tactical-chart.jpg

 

Corner speed:

Altflieger may be right on the EM diagrams not being available during WW2 http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-821/P-8210203.htm but the term of continuous turn rate sure was known - 'continuous rate of turn' http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html and this can be translated to the awareness of corner speed. Again, I'm not sure why the term 'corner speed' was not used.

The knowledge of the parameter is of crucial importance when it comes to dogfighting so I assumed the manual simply has to state it here or there, hence the search term I used. Corner speed should be around the maneuvering speed as seen on Fig. 81 (the intersection of the upper load factor limitation line with the 'accelerated stall' line - the intersection drops to the airspeed axis at around 300 MPH). But I don't think it's precise enough.

snap rolls - no mentioning of airframe overstress. IF (I don't know anything about this) P-51D would suffer from airframe overstress upon a snap roll it should be mentioned in the manual.

 

Fig. 43 Airspeed indicator

The section on the instrument could cover the characteristic layout of the scale. Airspeed indicators are often scaled and oriented in such a way that certain important airspeed values come out in some characteristic manner, e.g. minimum speed is when the pointer is horizontal, right, corner speed - pointer vertical, pointing downward etc. I imagine even those not willing to 'study hard' would appreciate such information.

 

I'm also surprised ED didn't go for some comparative Mustang vs Dora performance comparison, even simplistic.

 

Reading does not help with kills, Putting bullets into the cockpit does :D

Sure. And there's nothing like circling around such a poor man-of-the-stick-not-of-the-books with a constant 1000 ft altitude advantage, same A/C :sly:

 

Here's a discussion presenting some different approaches regarding manual layout and content, if anyone's interested

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=61946&page=6

 

 

EDIT:

It seems like they had EM charts in WW2 after all :)

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?96201-fighter-maneuverability-comparison&p=1500680#post1500680

Edited October 7, 2013 by Bucic

[DieHard]

Sorry.

 

In any case I'd be grateful for any resources you guys use to supplement the official manual.

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustangtest.html

 

Looks to be the same info

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

 

P-51 specific to Aces High modeling:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/P-51D

 

Pulled both items off the P-51D forums here doing topic searches.

 

Comparison Between Different Aircraft Types (Aces High again):

http://www.hitechcreations.com/gameinfo/plane-performance

 

Turn Rate

https://www.google.com/search?q=turn+rate+P-51D&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

Corner Speed

https://www.google.com/search?q=turn+rate+P-51D&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=corner+speed+P-51D&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial

 

See Message #9

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/456383-WWII-fighter-%28P-51%29-Corner-Speeds-When-was-an-actual-real-life-test-performed-Forums

 

Thanks for the previous links, re: Message #20 .

Edited October 8, 2013 by DieHard

[DieHard]

Wow Bucic, you are very rude and arrogant. Maybe if you did more than skim the manual you would realise a lot of the data you think is missing is there.. I'm sorry there are not all in pretty little charts for you. Maybe you need a picture book version. :P

 

The guy is an aviation engineer, so from his perspective, he wants raw data.

Edited October 8, 2013 by DieHard

[Bucic]

The guy is an aviation engineer, so from his perspective, he wants raw data.

Thanks for the resources! I'll review them sometime later. And no, I'm not interested in 'raw data' :) All I'm talking about in this topic can be employed by a pilot to ride his A/C on the edge and gain advantage. Just because some charts look fancy and crowded it doesn't mean they are intended for engineers rather than pilots.

 

It is also worth mentioning that charts are only needed because of varaition of airspeeds (and performance) with altitude. If I were to dogfight between 0 and 1000 ft I'd toss all the charts away, after I got the values from them.

 

I'm also confident anyone can use them to their advantage. The prerequisite is not an engineering degree but rather switching excuse talk to willingness to learn. And it's not even much to learn! Two sentences are enough to teach a freshman the difference between min radius and max turn rate speed. Then he practices at limited altitude range. Then he learns how to adjust the values for different altitudes based on a chart. Whalha :)

 

Going through the internet resources yesterday I stumbled upon few forum topics from different sim communities and they don't seem to have problems with using such performance data.

[billeinstein]

You may try the Tacview and find it by yourself.