DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[DB 605]

The stick may not be the most realistic place to "feel" what the aircraft is doing but at least with FFB you can feel those forces. Without FFB there's just nothing, you can make aero sounds louder but then that's not exactly realistic either.

 

I do like FFB and find it quite immersive I think it's seriously undervalued and underdeveloped in sims.

 

 

Agreed, there's no way i would play sims without ffb anymore. I have tried few times.

[DB 605]

Will the limited stick movement of a 109 also be modelled in FFB, so that when flying a 109 you are more limited in pitch and roll than in a Spit, owing to it's split stick?

 

QUOTE]

 

How exactly do you think it's limited and why it should be modelled in FFB?

[Merlin-27]

Not a discussion really but facts, with plenty of historical documents to back it, take a look yourself, that's interesting stuff :) 8th AF fighters were converted to 150 octane fuel in July '44 and remained this way until the end of the war, that's a fact :)

Which means both P51 and P47 should be using it in DCS:WWII or do you not agree? Of course, it all depends on the devs but it seems that's a reasonable thing to do is it not?

 

I never said I disagreed with you... simply that we've discussed this at length before :) From what I understand it would require a new a/c to be added with different parameters incorporated. I actually have referenced the exact same document you posted.

 

Perform a DCS forum search for "octane". The fifth result...

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111592&page=2

[Endy]

I never said I disagreed with you... simply that we've discussed this at length before :) From what I understand it would require a new a/c to be added with different parameters incorporated. I actually have referenced the exact same document you posted.

 

Perform a DCS forum search for "octane". The fifth result...

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111592&page=2

 

 

Ah, I know what you mean mate and I partially agree with that but the context is now quite a bit different. That discussion regarded the P51 as it exists now actually, in DCS World, which is without historical background etc. More like you're flying a historical plane for the heck of it but in modern conditions etc. I also understand why some guys were against it, because the game simply laced proper context. For leisurely flying the Mustang in modern conditions nothing more than 130 grade is needed.

 

But now we have DCS: WWII planned, with a historical setting and more or less historical opponents. If the game is simulating mostly the second half of 1944 (sure there's Normandy but there's also Dora and 109K which are both second half of 1944, even late in case of K-4) then historically, at that time - since July, all 8th AF fighters were converted and were already using 150 grade fuel. That also goes for the P47 btw.

So it would be reasonable to expect these planes' performance to reflect that, ie. the Mustangs to be able to use up to 75" pressure and P47 to use at least 67" inches, possibly 70".

 

Anyway, I just think that if the game simulates that period then there should at least be an option in the ME to use planes with 150 or 130 fuel for Spit IX, Mustang and P47. Same thing for 109K and 1.98 ata that Kurfurst noted.

 

Something like Yo-Yo hinted at might work, ie. different plane versions in the editor instead of a loadout option for all these planes. Also, according to what Yo-Yo said, the engine is perfectly capable of simulating same planes with different manifold pressure capabilities, so I really hope it will be there in the final game.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Endy

[BabyJail]

Not meaning to do the Moderators job, but in my opinion this "high octane fuel" discussion should be seperated from any thread specific to one plane if possible.. :music_whistling:

Edited November 7, 2013 by BabyJail

[NineLine]

There is no problem for the model to work with different MP and give accurate output. The only problem s how organise ME management of the planes. The best way is to have +18 and + 25 as separate planes because of MP regluator different setitng. But there is some limtatons to unique plane IDs number.

 

 

Yup, for mechanical differences, such as those associated with boost a separate aircraft might be needed, but for fuel types, such as octane, it would be nice to be able to change as a loadout option, and the plane would perform accordingly. Same with something like the MW50, where it could run with the Methanol mixture, straight water... or even empty... again... load out and resource management effecting this...

[Friedrich-4B]

One possible loadout for Spitfire IXs would be the special XXX rated supplies? How would a Spitfire fly on XXX octane, should the pilot accidentally switch to drop tanks?:pilotfly:

[Sharpe]

[Friedrich-4B]

Practically, it did.

Why would that be? The stick forces of the Spitfire V come from three main sources - friction in the controls, the elevator mass imbalance and the aerodynamic forces from elevator deflection. Now friction and mass imbalance are completely independent from a higher elevator angle required with a more forward CoG, only aerodynamic forces are not. And these were low in the first place.

There are plenty of pilots comments on heavier elevator of the IX to be found, as well as test pilots comments on better longitudinal stability. However, I'm not aware of complaints about "much heavier controls", as they weren't "much" heavier. Some pilots would instead positively note the reduced nervousness of the plane and better control balance.

 

It can't be so difficult to move the CoG the document ~3" forward and let the DCS engine deal with it.

 

Going back a ways; early production Mk IXs modified from Mk VC airframes (built by Supermarine & Rolls-Royce Hucknall) was the continued use the elevators with the small horn balance:

 

 

Whereas the majority of the production Mk IXs built by Castle Bromwich used elevators with larger horn balances: these modified balances alleviated the slight imbalance brought about by the longer, heavier engine (the Pilot's Notes below are for the Mk VII & VIII and are the genuine article from WW 2)

[Friedrich-4B]

Other early Spitfire IX physical differences: tear drop fairing behind spinner, starboard side; small teardrop fairings on upper engine cowling

 

Flat sided canopy, headrest and, not mentioned, Spitfire VC style double cannon bulges on cannon access doors, original, smaller horn balances on elevators and rectangular rear-view mirror; Mk II IFF aerials from horizontal tail tips to fuselage:

 

 

Some Spitfire IXs had mod 820 which removed the outer cannon stub:

 

 

From Matusiak 2011 pages 8, 5 and 14 respectively.

 

Edited November 9, 2013 by Friedrich-4/B

[Merlin-27]

 

Brandy could be quite useful at high altitude temperatures.

[Friedrich-4B]

The E wing started as a conversion set (Mod 1029) which was applied to C wing Spitfires:

 

 

From Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas 2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 4.

[Friedrich-4B]

Data for the Merlin 66:

 

 

And Merlin 61:

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B

[Tiger27]

 

Brandy could be quite useful at high altitude temperatures.

 

Beer for forward airbases in France I think.

[Friedrich-4B]

Beer for forward airbases in France I think.

 

Non, non, non!! For Normandy, a Calvados cider!:drink:

[horseback]

Non, non, non!! For Normandy, a Calvados cider!:drink:

Cider is nice on an occasional basis, but for an Englishman who has been busting his arse all day, an Imperial pint (of beer) is what he really looks forward to at the end of the day.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[Sharpe]

Cider is nice on an occasional basis, but for an Englishman who has been busting his arse all day, an Imperial pint (of beer) is what he really looks forward to at the end of the day.

 

cheers

 

horseback

 

and there was probably nothing better back then than getting a beer cooled from 30k (or so) feet up.

[Yob]

The Photo is of Johnny Johnsons Spitfire mark 9e model which carried no weapons because it was a mishmash of air-frames.

 

And it's nice cool beer :p

[Friedrich-4B]

Post D-Day 2 TAF Spitfire armament - .50 cal (mod 1029) and wing bomb racks (mod 1209). The .50s were not fitted to all 2 TAF Spitfires, but increasing numbers of L.F Mk IXs were either modified or built with this armament, although the designation wasn't changed to Mk IXE until early 1945. (From Thomas and Shores' 2 TAF Vol 4 http://www.amazon.com/2nd-Tactical-Air-Force-Vol/dp/1906537011

 

 

Polish Spitfire L.F Mk IX showing some details of mid-late pdn Mk IX:

 

[Yob]

Post D-Day 2 TAF Spitfire armament - .50 cal (mod 1029) and wing bomb racks (mod 1209). The .50s were not fitted to all 2 TAF Spitfires, but increasing numbers of L.F Mk IXs were either modified or built with this armament, although the designation wasn't changed to Mk IXE until early 1945. (From Thomas and Shores' 2 TAF Vol 4

polish Spitfire L.F Mk IX showing some details of mid-late pdn Mk IX:

 

 

Yes you are correct there, but some mark 9e's already existed before D-day. John Johnson's aircraft that he carried Kegs on the racks was actually a E by the a loose scene.... Manly because it had the ability to carry the E armament but was a jumble of different air-frames. and carried no guns..

 

I will post some more info tonight, once i get home and have the time too.

[Kurfürst]

A technical question - were the Spitfire's guns breach-loaded and cocked on the ground by hand, or there was a on board system to load the guns?

 

What was the method of actually firing the guns? Pneumatic?

[NeilWillis]

Cold ale is the work of the devil, invented by people who didn't want to taste it, or because the ale in question was too foul to be tasted! Beer is actually the epithet for sub-standard ales - as in small beer - the third running from a 3 mash method used in the dim and distant past.

 

Shame on all lager drinkers!!!

[Yob]

A technical question - were the Spitfire's guns breach-loaded and cocked on the ground by hand, or there was a on board system to load the guns?

 

What was the method of actually firing the guns? Pneumatic?

 

It depends, some models armaments... The MK V Hispano cannon had to be cocked on the ground by hand, because of them getting rid of the Cock camber.. The .303 Brownings were a type of automatic loading...

 

No spitfire guns where Breach loaded to my knowledge.. Could be very wrong though..

 

Sorry guns arent my strong point....

[bongodriver]

As a frequent Stella drinker I often feel shame :drunk:, I am beginning to atone for my sins and aquiring a taste for ales :drink:.

[Paradox]

As a frequent Stella drinker I often feel shame :drunk:, I am beginning to atone for my sins and aquiring a taste for ales :drink:.

 

Good man, we'll make a spitfire pilot out of you yet.

 

The next step is a handlebar moustache.