How in the world can I get better at formation flying?

[Pajeezy]

So I joined up on multiplayer for the first time in a serious way today. Went to an aerobatics server and checked into a MiG-29 (I was the only MiG on the map). Messed around for a while until another MiG pilot showed up. Two more randomly showed up afterward, and we all got together and decided to fly around. I was a bit nervous as I'd never tried formation flying (although I believe I've got the MiG down for the most part).

 

So, lo-and-behold, we get up in the air, and the other 3 guys are perfect in their flight. Tight nice little triangle, while I'm way behind flopping and flailing to match speeds and get in close. Didn't manage to get in close enough one time without hitting them. I tried adjusting trim, I even used my radar to lock onto the lead plane to get an exact speed from him, still didn't help. I found out that it is REALLY tough and I have no idea what I'm doing.

 

Are there really any pointers at all to help me get my footing? Is it my poor setup maybe? I only have an old Logitech 3D PRO joystick and that's it. I'm lost in the wind and need some help. Thanks for any assistance (if there is any to give) in the matter.

[marluk]

Hi! I'm not an expert but I think that better joystick with rudder pedals would make a difference. I had Logitech Force 3D Pro but it was really bad for precise flying. Recently I bought TM Warthog HOTAS and that's it. First flight was miracle. Plane goes exactly where I want. It was impossible with the old stick. Good luck!

[Pajeezy]

That sounds like a great idea. Only problem is that setup is $400...Is there any other way without having to spend a fortune? :(

[ScottishMartialArts]

The rudder is key for formation flight, as is trim and very gentle throttle adjustments. Do NOT use ailerons to adjust your lateral position in the formation; instead, abide by the rule that the leader's wings are your horizon, i.e. always match your bank angle to the leader. If you need to adjust your lateral position, i.e. you're too far to the right or left, then use your rudder plus some gentle aileron in the opposite direction so as not to start banking. If you are too far behind or ahead of the formation, then make micro adjustments to throttle to adjust your closure rate. Ideally you should have zero closure to maintain formation, but if you find yourself with positive or negative closure, make very fine adjustments to correct for that. Finally, when the formation is turning, an outside or inside position on the formation will necessitate a larger or smaller turn radius, respectively, so make your turn accordingly -- this is the hardest part of formation flight, by the way.

[kk0425]

Maybe try adjusting your curves and deadzone settings? But I think they big thing is practice. Try doing AAR a lot of times since it's similar to formation flying. Especially if you have the A-10C module.

[Hamblue]

Learn in air re-fueling.

While you learn you'll find yourself formation flying with the tanker.

If you don't want to re-fuel then just practice flying close to the tanker.

[GC1993]

I'd advise against learning formation flying in the russian jets - the trim isn't usually set nicely and you'll always adjust. For me, the F-15 flies the most stable, both in it's control surface inputs and power range; you can keep up with anything else (though you shouldn't really be doing formation at more than 350-400 TAS anyway), and it's also stable when you want to slow down to a Hog's speed or even a P-51's speed I've managed with the flaps down.

 

One method I learned in my early DCS stages was on single player - set an AI plane to fly straight and level for ages, and just practise different formation positions on him, as well as see how close you can get and maintain that distance.

 

At the end of the day, it really is practise practise practise. Learning on the aerobatic server online can be brutal but it does make you learn quick. Even when you cock up and send 5 of you plummeting to the ground with wings missing, you still have a good laugh about it (unless you're playing with some dementors that take it all too seriously).

 

Having a TM Warthog does help as people have said above but don't take that one too seriously - I was more than proficient at formation flying before I got my hog stick (I had a TM T.Flight HOTAS I believe).

 

Practise practise practise buddy. :)

[Pajeezy]

Thanks a lot folks!! I guess I will just practice at it some more. I love the DCS world, but unfortunately probably not enough to spend hundreds of dollars on a new stick. I'll just adjust the sensitivities and curvatures etc and see how it goes.

[Der_Fred]

As what Scottish says.. It also helps to 'lock' the leader (or other aircraft) with a fixed cokpit reference. IOW you're focus on keep the other aircraft in one place, rather than focusing on the aircraft itself.

[Mike Busutil]

One method I like to use is to center my hud (TVV) on the wingtip of my wingman. This forces me to use smaller control inputs and allows me to keep a forward look instead of always looking out of the side of my cockpit.

 

[Rhinox]

Tricks that work for me:

 

- lock on formation-leader (with IRST, so that RWR does not drive him crazy) and watch his speed

- trim pitch axis a little forward (so "middle" position is not where dead-zone is)

- use pedals for left/right direction control, with "S-curve" sensitivity (good for small corrections)

- use THW "speedbrake" forward position button for airbrake (needs some profile programming): airbrake deploying (and stays deployed) only as long as I keep the button pressed; as soon as I release it, airbrake starts retracting

[ralfidude]

As someone here who likes to scrape the paint off of my teamates when flying all the time, I will tell you this:

 

Curvature to 30.

 

^that's your holy grail.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Flying in trail is much easier than echelon, so practice that first too (if you're not already).

[Seil]

As someone here who likes to scrape the paint off of my teamates when flying all the time, I will tell you this:

 

Curvature to 30.

 

^that's your holy grail.

 

That ^^^^ and don't try to move your stick, more like squeeze your hand muscles. Talking about SMALL corrections!

 

As said before, practice, it'll happen before you know it. Just keep at it.

[XtraChrisP]

I had a Logitech 3D Pro at one point too, and I felt like fine control of flight was next to impossible. I upgraded to the Saitek X52 Pro, and it made a huge difference for me. $400 for a TM Warthog is a lot, so be aware that there are cheaper alternatives that can be almost as good as the top of the line model.

[ENO]

This thread is from the guy who taught me how to do proper station keeping and relative aspect from the cockpit. It differs from one of the earlier posts but it's another tool in the tool belt.

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3528152/Formation_Flying_Station_Keepi#Post3528152

[Dejjvid]

No need to use any rudder while flying in formation with the A-10C.

I regularly fly formation in the A-10C and can hold my position within 2 inches when bank angle is around 30 degrees. I wobble a bit more when doing aerobatics in formation ;)

 

I'd be very, very surprised if fast mowers use rudders in normal formation.

[GGTharos]

Your stick's not that great but no problem, it's the basics that you don't have down that are a problem.

 

First of all, you're trying to go into formation as if it was something you already know how to do. Obviously, you now know that you don't know nuthin' ;)

 

First, decide where you want to be. Park next to a plane where you want to be flying formation. Yes, on the ground. Memorize the visuals. That's what you'll be correcting, not speeds on the HuD etc. It's all about visual flying and hand-eye coordination.

 

With a good instructor it takes about 3-4 hours just to get started (not continuous hours though), and probably 15-20 hours to gain a beginner/confident proficiency level.

 

Don't try to keep going and fighting it if you start getting frustrated. Stop there, you've stopped learning. Try again after a break.

 

Also, when you realise you're getting a death grip on the stick, let it go (you heard me. LET IT GO!) and wiggle your fingers and start breathing again.

 

Your first step is proper approach to learning this skill, the next step is actually learning it.

 

So, lo-and-behold, we get up in the air, and the other 3 guys are perfect in their flight. Tight nice little triangle, while I'm way behind flopping and flailing to match speeds and get in close. Didn't manage to get in close enough one time without hitting them. I tried adjusting trim, I even used my radar to lock onto the lead plane to get an exact speed from him, still didn't help. I found out that it is REALLY tough and I have no idea what I'm doing.

 

Are there really any pointers at all to help me get my footing? Is it my poor setup maybe? I only have an old Logitech 3D PRO joystick and that's it. I'm lost in the wind and need some help. Thanks for any assistance (if there is any to give) in the matter.

[GGTharos]

Same here. Especially in FC, it's insanely confusing as it wiggles your nose around and will mess up your wingman's lineup if he's flying off of you while you're flying off of lead.

 

I'd be very, very surprised if fast mowers use rudders in normal formation.

[Dejjvid]

I always know I have good wingman if they are silent during the approach. If they ask for my speed I get scared shitless and pray they don't crash into me.. :'(

[Habu_69]

Good formation flying requires a good flight lead, first of all. He should be announcing formation altitude, speed and headings and warning of turns in advance. As stated in many of the posts above, fly close to the correct position, THEN make very small throttle and stick corrections. I disagree with the advice not to use aileron, I find it helpful. For making minor lateral distance adjustments, alter your heading only 1 or 2 degrees and readjust heading when you achieve the correct position.

[GGTharos]

In what formation? If you can't keep up with a good lead in fingertip without the announcements, you're not good enough at formation flying.

 

Good formation flying requires a good flight lead, first of all. He should be announcing formation altitude, speed and headings and warning of turns in advance.

[Mike Busutil]

^That^

[ENO]

I always know I have good wingman if they are silent during the approach. If they ask for my speed I get scared shitless and pray they don't crash into me.. :'(

 

Well then I'm a crappy wingman :helpsmilie:

 

 

In defense of getting a heads up on speed- especially in the A-10 I do find it's helpful to get some idea of whether or not I'm going to be able to catch him at his current speed or not... whether he's going to need to know this so he can turn and let me cut the corner, or pull his throttle back a bit.

 

Also given the relatively low "ketchup" speeds available to the A-10 not to mention an absence of real sensory feedback it does help to know a starting point so when you do start to make up some distance you have a better idea of your target speed when you're through maneuvering into position.

 

Perhaps I'm weak as a wingie... I think most people in the sim are and should be expected to be... but it isn't to say anyone who does a speed check is going to smash into everything.

[GGTharos]

In defense of getting a heads up on speed- especially in the A-10 I do find it's helpful to get some idea of whether or not I'm going to be able to catch him at his current speed or not... whether he's going to need to know this so he can turn and let me cut the corner, or pull his throttle back a bit.

 

For a rejoin it's fine to ask, but a good lead would be flying at a pre-defined contract anyway, unless the situation dictates otherwise. Once you are IN your position however, the only reason to announce speed changes is because they are rapid, include the use of airbrakes, or other actions that you need to be warned on as you might possibly not keep up.

 

A little push of the throttle here and there? That's for you to deal with, and that is what we were talking about.

 

Perhaps I'm weak as a wingie... I think most people in the sim are and should be expected to be... but it isn't to say anyone who does a speed check is going to smash into everything.

 

Yes, you are correct, but on the other hand all of this formation stuff is the basis of dogfighting. Knowing how to catch up, how to rejoin in a turn, into what formation, how to control overshoot if any etc. is pretty much critical air combat knowledge for everything air combat related.

 

To put it in other words, understanding formation flying is understanding BFM, and anything that flies is something you will fight against using BFM, be it close up or far away!

 

Also, *lead hat on* speed checks are annoying. If I didn't do a good job as lead to help you maintain formation by flying the way I said I would, and flying into places or ways that made it hard for you when I didn't have to, then I deserve a talking to. If on the other hand I did all this stuff and you didn't stay in, you need practice.

 

I'm not saying that to you personally though ENO, it's rather to give the idea of attitude regarding formation. You must have that aggressive attitude for maintaining formation or it won't work, and consequently, none of the tactics that are predicated upon formation flying will work - this applies to close formation and tactical formations as well.