Questions regarding the stability and control of the Mustang

[msalama]

care what a bunch of total strangers on a forum tell me etc. etc.

 

Yeah, OK... well as long as you understand that this inconsequential rant of yours is actually coming from a total stranger on an internet forum :megalol:

 

My impression so far on this, however, is that most RL pilots flying DCS aircraft with _properly_configured_controls_ have, if anything, been impressed of their accuracy - and this includes the P-51 Horsemen team previously mentioned. So pardon me mightily for asking, but who are you again BUT some random dude off the net?

[Buznee]

Alright, lets cool it guys.

 

My my my....we're a defensive bunch aren't we..........

 

Mark, sorry if I came across that way. Didn't mean anything by it.

 

Agreed that flight sims have limitations and they will never be perfect. It is great to give them credit for what they did get right :thumbup:. Cheers and happy holidays.

[Echo38]

I have flown in Cesnas that in real life seem to out turn this P-51. I have likewise been told this by a number of pilots.

 

So've I. You do realize that the P-51 weighed ~10,000 lb.? That's, what, five times the mass of a Cessna 172? And you're surprised that the P-51 has a much larger problem with accelerated stalls and a wider turn radius? But, I'm sure you'll just skip over this post like you ignored the others. [shrug] Your loss, not ours.

[otto]

" the problem is with our shoddy plastic joysticks, not the sim"

The dcs is the most realistic sim out there because of the complexity of aircraft systems.But as for the flight model:

why buy a 500$ warthog(the best joystick in my opinion) when you(the programmers,game designers and such) could make the plane fly a little more precise and you get the same result with a cheapear joystick.Certainly a lot more people would buy the sim.

 

And no matter how realistic, a pc simulator is just a game in the end.A fun one but can't be compared to real life.

Edited December 28, 2013 by otto

[Nate--IRL--]

" the problem is with our shoddy plastic joysticks, not the sim"

The dcs is the most realistic sim out there because of the complexity of aircraft systems.But as for the flight model:

why buy a 500$ warthog(the best joystick in my opinion) when you(the programmers,game designers and such) could make the plane fly a little more precise and you get the same result with a cheapear joystick.Certainly a lot more people would buy the sim.

 

They did, the model is accurate - adjust your curves in the options to match your Joysticks lack of precision..

 

Nate

[markwilliam]

Why are we harping on the Joystick issue? I don't care if your using a Saitek X52, cyborg, or even a Logitech 3D pro. The plane is hard to maneuver due to the way it is set up, not the joystick. When you bank, much of the time you start to shake uncontrollably unless you know the exact paremeters of the virtual plane, not its real world counterpart. So yes....any pilot who's use to a real plane will kind of suffer a shock of sorts. This is the software......not the stick. I do not feel my stick shaking.....I have used 3 different sticks on this sim....all yield the same result.

Wow.....now we're just grasping straws. just admit that your not the all knowing of flight sims and this sim, along with many others is just not real, nor does it act real. And when someone comes here and asks about it, rather than get defensive and blame them or their system, just tell em....yeah, it takes some getting use to and no......it's not a real P-51 and by nature....it cannot act like one. So to enjoy it....you have to learn to make the adjustments. How hard is that????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

LOL....my reputation is in the red..........Telling the truth must not be popular here.

Edited December 29, 2013 by markwilliam

[AtaliaA1]

They did, the model is accurate - adjust your curves in the options to match your Joysticks lack of precision..

 

Nate

 

You've said that twice. I think you're hitting right on the nail head (as it were) so let's see if He adjusts the setting and allows those same pilots another go. That after all is the difference between the 2 sets of Professional Pilots listed.

 

 

And the original OP never came back with what joystick he is using. as he stated FSX was one they use a combat stick and rudder system may not be what they have.

[msalama]

Telling the truth must not be popular here.

 

Perhaps. But what's even less popular is how you spout your opinions as if they were the truth. But never mind, trolls come and go...

[Flagrum]

Why are we harping on the Joystick issue?

 

The reason is:

I don't care if your using a Saitek X52, cyborg, or even a Logitech 3D pro.

 

You just don't understand that most likely not the software is the problem, but your hardware.

 

You said it already, the sim is not real. True. Sitting in your armchair does not resemble the real experience well. A massively reduces field of view and also a stick with totally different throw and resistance doesn't really help there either. Add now some guy that is used to the real plane and maybe not so used to sit in front of a PC ... and you wonder that they say "the real thing is different"?

 

But is that the fault of DCS P-51??(120 question marks omitted)?

[Echo38]

LOL....my reputation is in the red...Telling the truth must not be popular here.

 

Your rep is red because you are perpetrating fallacies and, when corrected, you ignore those corrections, declining to address them, instead continuing in your error as though they hadn't been offered. That's anti-truth.

[VH-Rock]

Your rep is red because you are perpetrating fallacies and, when corrected, you ignore those corrections, declining to address them, instead continuing in your error as though they hadn't been offered. That's anti-truth.

 

 

Indeed - How people perceived you on an internet forum is entirely dependent on, and susceptible to, the register in which you choose to write and the 'tone' of voice which is perceived by your target audience. So far, each of your posts in this thread have come across as aggressive when what you "know" was question, and ignorant when people have people have offered you a solution to your problems. - There are ways to criticise a product, and peoples opinions of it, in a polite manner. For all I know, you could be a very nice guy, in person, but, that's not how you've come across on here.

 

In the past, we've had people come on these forums with a similar problem to the on you're experiencing. We've shown them the videos, given them a few tips and, within the space of 2 weeks, this plane that was once 'impossible to fly' and that 'Stalls every time I try to turn' is suddenly the best flight sim experience they've had! You think the real P-51 is so easy to fly? I've seen a real P-51 enter an accelerated stall at an air show once, 100% not intended and she was being flown by an extremely experienced pilot.

 

Now, I am not claiming DCS: P-51 to be 100% like flying a real P-51 - Nor am I saying that it is absolutely perfect. But it is, without doubt, the most accurate in sim experience of flying a P-51 you can get. My own experience of meeting some of the worlds most experience, and popular, P-51 pilots has proven that to me - whether you choose to believe their views is entirely up to you. Of course, it's never going to feel exactly the same, but your missing the point completely... The sims job is to, in effect, get the aircraft's flight model nailed which, as far as I'm concerned, they have. Until you start flying DCS P-51 with a floor mount stick, the exact same length as P-51's, with force feedback equal to what you experience in a real Mustang, you're not going to get the full effect. That is a deficiency in your chosen hardware, not the DCS Sim itself. Even when you do have that, you're still not going to feel the aircraft moving... Your expectations are far to high - what you're asking for is impossible.

 

DCS P-51 is marketed as the most accurate representation of the P-51 Mustang in a flight sim, because it is.

[Davee]

Thanks everyone for the excellent guidance. I have to get used to sideslip as well. How does one correct for sideslip? Simply rudder trim and/or applying the rudder during?

 

Also, I just witnessed one thing he was talking about. During a turn, if he goes to pull on the stick for a tighter turn, the aircraft begins to shudder and then "flips out" as I said before. It basically just like flips over to turn the opposite direction. What is causing this? Is the Mustang simply unable to perform tight maneuvers?

 

 

Hi Pajeezy.

 

I had the same issues when I first ran DCS P51 - an oversensitive response to stick input.

 

I've been flying a multitude of sims since 1985 and a variety of high-end joysticks so am very familiar with their setup. Currently, I have a Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS which uses HAL sensors instead of POTS - this makes it very accurate.

 

What I had to do was:

Reduce the total length of Y axis response from both max to minimum by "zooming" in on the axis centre only (done in the WARTHOG stick software setup). What this means is that the numbers generated at the ends of the Y axis in this case, are pushed out as I expand the middle two thirds of the linear Y axis. This in effect de-sensitized the stick and eliminated the dreaded flip out when pulling back on the stick even a small amount.

 

The X axis I placed a mid deadspot and created an "average" curve for response and this works very well.

 

Regarding rudders, my Saitek pedals were uncontrollable in landing and takeoff - ground loops in taxying - could not be adjusted with external software so instead I went into the Options menu in the SIM and moved the "help rudder" axis to 25 percent and now my pedals work as they should (for me).

 

All in all, it is getting to know what stick adjustments you can make to work with the way in which DCS have modeled the response curves in the P51.

 

Personally, I think it needs a lot of work within the SIM Options to accommodate the different sticks out there and allow for more latitude for stick adjustment within the SIM.

 

I have to say that the P51 by far needs the most adjustment of any SIM that I have ever flown and that I think the devs have not created the correct correlation of stick input to the flight model. (Just sayin')

 

Stay with it and try an external tool for adjusting stick inputs. I can't recall which they are as I don't need to use them but someone will jump in here with that info I'm sure.

 

Once all of this is set up, it is a lot of fun flying the P51 indeed. I fly CLOD most of the time and also work hard in DCS P51 getting it down as best I can in order to be prepared for Oleg, Ilya and the boys release of WWII next year.

 

Good times ahead.

 

Cheers,

Catseye

Edited December 29, 2013 by Catseye

[NineLine]

So you are saying your flight stick is equal to that of the control stick in the P-51D, so that isnt a factor at all? And if your pilots that tried it cant see that either.... well...

 

Why are we harping on the Joystick issue? I don't care if your using a Saitek X52, cyborg, or even a Logitech 3D pro. The plane is hard to maneuver due to the way it is set up, not the joystick.

[cichlidfan]

So you are saying your flight stick is equal to that of the control stick in the P-51D, so that isnt a factor at all? And if your pilots that tried it cant see that either.... well...

 

At this point, I think this is a case of horses, water and so on. ;)

[Mysticpuma]

Reading this thread and several other related ones, I respectfully think many people are over thinking the whole thing. First, let me say that I find the DCS World Mustang to be the best ever done. But... That doesn't mean it's perfect. Any attempt to duplicate a real world aircraft on a desktop computer is bound to fall short somewhere. I have been flying flight sims since the TI994A days when the planes and terrain were in wire frame and control was the arrow keys. Look what we have today....and we're still bitching.

 

To those who have pointed out the need to spend serious time setting proper control travels and curves... absolutely correct. If you're not willing to put in the time to set it up, well... You will never be happy with it.

 

I only have a very few problems I couldn't fix with the control setup. One is the speed the handbook says to raise the tail at... I think it's a typo in converting from metric, maybe. Why would it say raise the tail at 100 mph when the Mustang comes off the ground at around 80? Then there's the bad swerving that goes out of control when you're up on the mains for take off or trying to wheel land it. Here, I may be saddled with a too slow computer but not sure. Getting 20-30 frames and flies beautifully in normal flight.

 

The inner gear doors come down on the ramp after shut down when you pull the T handle, which is correct, but the flaps stay up. They should drop down too as hydraulic pressure is removed from the system. Easy fix, I would think.

 

I'm well aware of the differences between a real plane and flying at one's desktop with the short sticks we use. That said, here is my wish list to put this amazing P-51 sim over the top and make it unbeatable.

 

Tweek the steering to be more controllable on take off and landing for those of us who aren't running 50 fps. Most Mustangs now days are wheel landed to keep better aileron control... These planes are close to 2 million dollars now. Yes, everybody landed 3-point in the War but they didn't have to pay for the occasional ground loop.

 

Every crash including ground loops seems to end in an explosion and fire... Common, guys... :-)

 

Accelerated stalls are close but the real P-51 has more pronounced buffet. Also, for all of you saying the Mustang had vicious stall behavior- Not really. It would snap roll in the direction the ball was off but at least in normal stalls, if the ball was centered it would break straight ahead. This sim does model recovery beautifully... just relax the back pressure and you're flying again.

 

Just a bunch of notes after flying the DCS Mustang for the past 3 weeks. Again, don't jump on me.. I love it and am going to work with darn little sleep some days.

 

By the way, I'm not saying all this as theory. I have 7.5 hours in a P-51 at Stallion 51 in Florida and the first hour was with Ed Shippley.. Ever hear of him? :-) He'd be the first to tell you you can get the tail up at 60 on take off and track the centerline with razor precision. I have done split S's from altitude, holding Crazy Horse in the stall buffet all the way through. That's an exercise they teach. Take off's and landings? Probably close to 20.

 

I'll never be able to go back... Burned through my savings... but absolutely love this sim because it comes so close to the real thing. Sure wish it didn't swerve so much on the runway though. :-)

 

 

Hi Swoop. Having heard of Ed Shipley and that you have flown a real P-51, I would think puts you in a point of authority amongst most to know some real vs Sim issues.

 

Thanks for taking the time to visit and post your thoughts. I also noticed the hydraulic behaviour after pulling the T-Handle, and it's good to know I am not the only one to feel the Mustang is a little harsh on Rudder for take-off.

 

Does anyone ever act on bug reports?

 

Cheers, MP

[NineLine]

At this point, I think this is a case of horses, water and so on. ;)

 

Yup, I'd have to agree :)

[msalama]

Sure wish it didn't swerve so much on the runway though. :-)

 

Yeah, glad to see someone with real experience on the beast saying something tangible about things suspect for a change :)

[EvilBivol-1]

Tweek the steering to be more controllable on take off and landing for those of us who aren't running 50 fps. Most Mustangs now days are wheel landed to keep better aileron control... These planes are close to 2 million dollars now. Yes, everybody landed 3-point in the War but they didn't have to pay for the occasional ground loop.

As a matter of design philosophy, we generally don't "tweak" the model to compensate for the inherent limitations of the hardware (that becomes an endless question of how far you tweak and toward what type of hardware...). However such things can be accomplished using custom options, two of which are available for the DCS P-51D - takeoff assist and auto-rudder. Personally I feel that using such options within reason to compensate for hardware limitations and other physical drawbacks of flying the sim as opposed to the real thing is a perfectly good way to do it and I would encourage it.

 

Sure wish it didn't swerve so much on the runway though. :-)

Not to argue, but just FYI, in testing the P-51 FM we looked at graphs of things like rudder deflection and, IIRC, rudder pedal pressure. This was for both takeoff and various flight trim settings. It doesn't mean we got it absolutely right, but certainly the goal is to be as accurate as possible. I am not a FM dev myself, but I believe our sim numbers match known real P-51 numbers very well across the board, though, again, I'm sure there may be slip-ups here and there.

 

We value good testing and feedback. If you have reasonably rigorous testing results and reasonably reliable data of the real aircraft that conflicts with the sim, we're happy to consider it. We're well aware that despite our best efforts, errors and omissions are inevitable, but we do generally feel that generic personal impressions can only go so far in determining the accuracy of the FM. It's an important element, but it's a very human element and like all other human reflections may suffer from a large variation between people, place, and time.

Edited December 30, 2013 by EvilBivol-1

[Mysticpuma]

I'm interested to know whether the simple (but nice) feature of the landing flaps also dropping down (as the Wheel covers do), once the Hydraulic T-Handle is pulled, is an easy fix for your team to make?

 

Cheers, MP

[Der_Fred]

@markwillaim:

I agree with you in totality.. 110%

 

But before we go anywhere.. THIS is nothing more than a PC game...

Does is represent the real thing ... NO.. but it does come close in some scenarios. ?

 

Does your stick, or calibration make any difference = NO.. Humans adjust to this, as in any aircraft - so the story about your stick is BS.

 

There is definitely the 'PRO-CLUB' who do not want to hear the 'TRUTH', no doubt.. but these are the 'FAN' club..

 

What we really want to get hold of is the realists.. the real P51 'combat pilots'. I sit amongst pilots.... some are mavericks.. some are 'Yes people'

 

Whose voice do you want to hear ?????

[Nate--IRL--]

Does your stick, or calibration make any difference = NO..

 

Hmm, Uncalibrated I move my stick on my desk 1 inch to the left and I get, in sim, near full deflection to the left. If I move the stick once inch to the left, in the real aircraft, the stick moves one inch to the left.

 

Same movement, very very different outcome, due to the lack of range and axis resolution in my joystick. Now, how do we bridge that gap?

 

Nate

[Der_Fred]

Think about a real stick in a real aircraft..

:-)

[Der_Fred]

I actually don't calibrate my stick...

 

I respond or move (so to speak) according to my stick/rudder responses.. as any real pilot would do.. Get my hint ?/

[Nate--IRL--]

Think about a real stick in a real aircraft..

:-)

 

I said exactly that in my post above. Unless your hardware matches the real thing, or is at least capable of the same stick throw, you will have to use Curves to calibrate and dampen your input to the sim.

 

So your statement of "Does your stick, or calibration make any difference = NO" is not correct at all, it is in fact Vital.

 

I actually don't calibrate my stick...

 

I respond or move (so to speak) according to my stick/rudder responses.. as any real pilot would do.. Get my hint ?/

 

Understood, but you are not flying with the same physical stick that a real pilot does. You movements are amplified because your short stick range must be translated to much larger stick range in the aircraft.

 

Nate

Edited December 31, 2013 by Nate--IRL--

[PeterP]

a "low cost" approach to let the flight model "talk to me" and also smaller the 'mismatch' between the "real thing" and my "desktop experience" :

Two MS FFB2 with Cougar Grip

my short summary: Yes , you can have xxx with a rubber-doll, and you can also "fly" without a FFB stick at the desktop ... it's doable..., sure... , many do it this way....

... but it will never satisfy you after you made experience with the real world .

Edited December 31, 2013 by PeterP