Su-25 as antitank?

[Stratos]

IS anyone able to kill modern tanks with the Su-25 guns? And with other weapons? I tried rockets and guns against T-72 with no luck. I'm doing something wrong?

[VapoR]

With guns it will be VERY difficult, in fact I don't usually bother. You have to hit them from the top rear to have a chance at a kill and must be very close.

 

Which rockets are you using? The S-13s and S-25s are your best choices.

 

Bombs are good too, try the FAB 250 and 500 and also the RBK 250 and 500 cluster bombs.

 

For missiles the S-25Ls pack serious punch but have very short range. The Kh-25ml has the longest range.

[esb77]

Hardest part is that with the exception of S-25, Kh-25, and the non-cluster bombs you need to land multiple rounds exactly on target, ideally on the same spot. The ideal spots being the top of the turret, and (if exposed) the top of the engine compartment (usually the rear section of the tank's hull).

 

 

That's a level of precision that's very difficult very to impossible depending partly on how good your input hardware is.

 

The solution?

 

Apply munitions liberally. Don't drop one bomb, ripple some or all of them.

 

For S-8 rockets 5-7 hits will usually produce a tank kill, for S-5s and cannon rounds it's probably 10-15, possibly more.

 

The Su-25 can kill heavy armor, but it's a lot easier to do it in a Su-25T using guided munitions in combination with the Shkval system. I'd say the equivalence is maybe 4 fully loaded Su-25s are equal to 1 Su-25T with two stations of Vikhrs.

[Stratos]

So with rockets is better to concentrate a middle ripple on one single tank right?

[pepin1234]

Well is not hard when the tank is static (using Kh-25ML, Kh-29L, S-25L, S-25, S-24, S-8KOM). Ones they start moving slowly (20 km/h ) you should try with Kh-25ML and S-25L and always correcting the reticle Position some meters ahead of the tanks direction way ( You Need training ok ).

 

But the realistic way to hit the modern tanks is with S-8KOM at low altitud with a jump just in front them Shooting a bunch of S-8KOM. ( but right now this is almost impossible, your FPS going extremelly down )

 

Do a Little Mission with some moving tanks with 25 km/h Speed, you will see they only get die with Laser Missiles and is very fun.

 

ED should fix for the future the behavior of the S-8KOM. With two Impact of S-8KOM the modern tanks must be out of battle.

 

I have tested the damage level of Impact for an Abrams, so normally they are weak from behind.

 

Is hard to say how many Impact take the Leopard to die. But was a good try with S-8KOM. See track below...

S-8KOM Anti tank capability.trk

Edited January 6, 2014 by pepin1234

[Gloom Demon]

You have to hit them from the top rear to have a chance at a kill and must be very close.

 

This is incorrect!

Unfortunately the current damage model does not include different vulnerability for different sides of a vehicle.

This is incorrect!

Edited January 6, 2014 by Gloom Demon

[esb77]

Unfortunately the current damage model does not include different vulnerability for different sides of a vehicle.

 

Are you sure about that for main battle tanks? Because when flying the Su-25T I've noticed a definite difference in how many Vikhrs it takes to kill tanks. Usually at least 2, but sometimes up to 4 from the front, but usually single hit kills from the rear. From the side it's variable 1-3 hits, but my impression is that turret facing has an effect, ie you want the front of the turret facing away from you if possible.

 

In my experience this happens for T-72s, Leopards, Gepard AAA, and Challengers, haven't flown against other tanks enough to see if it holds true for them.

 

Now this isn't a detailed thing where you might for example get a damaged track, or targeting system, or other specific components. More like a [incoming weapons damage] * [aspect coefficient] = [damage done]. Where you'd have an aspect coefficient table along the lines of:

Front = .5

Side = .75

Rear = 1.0

 

Or something sort of similar to that.

 

It doesn't show up with the heavier guided missile because their warheads do so much damage that it doesn't matter where you hit, but I notice a significant difference when using Vihkrs.

Edited January 6, 2014 by esb77

[AlphaOneSix]

Unfortunately the current damage model does not include different vulnerability for different sides of a vehicle.

 

It does.

[Gloom Demon]

Wow - me bad then - where can I read more on that? In my case I usually have to spend one Vikhr for an MBT - it is only rarely that I need two - I thought that was due to near misses.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Gloom Demon

[Wags]

If I remember correctly, all vehicles has separate front, rear, left side and right sides armor values for both hull and turret if applicable. There is also a top armor value. As such, were a weapon impacts the vehicle is very important.

[Gloom Demon]

Great!!! I am sorry my post was misleading.

[pepin1234]

Time Ago I have made a test with RPG-16 with CA.

 

Abrams, Leopard, Lecler, 5 Impact to die

T-80, T-72. 4 Impact to die

T-55. 3 Impact to die

 

And yes. the different protection level is simulated. I have kill Abrams from rear with Shilka.

[flanker0ne]

Generic Tank

tank_hull_elevation = { {-90,11,1}, {11,19,2.9}, {19,40,1}, {40,90,0.15}, }
tank_hull_azimuth = { {0,10,2.9}, {10,30,1}, {30,150,0.67}, {150,180,0.20}, }
tank_turret_elevation = { {-90,18,2.9}, {18,90,1}, }
tank_turret_azimuth = { {0,10,2.9}, {10,30,1}, {30,150,0.67}, {150,180,0.25}, }

 

 

T-55 MBT

T55_hull_elevation = { {-90, 30, 0.8 }, { 30, 90, 0.12 }, }
T55_hull_azimuth = { {0, 30, 1.4 }, { 30, 150, 1 }, { 150,180, 0.15 }, }
T55_turret_elevation = { {-90,18, 1.4 }, { 18,90, 0.8 }, }
T55_turret_azimuth = { {0,10,1.4}, {10,30,1}, {30,150,1}, {150,180,0.20}, }

 

Generic IFV

IFV_hull_elevation = { {-90, 30, 1 }, { 30, 90, 0.6 }, }
IFV_hull_azimuth = { {0, 30, 1 }, { 30, 150, 0.6 }, { 150,180, 0.5 }, }
IFV_turret_elevation = { {-90,18, 1 }, { 18,90, 0.5 }, }
IFV_turret_azimuth = { {0,180, 1 }, }

[Stratos]

Thanks guys!! I'm loading bigger rockets (laser guided are great!) in order to kill tanks now! The gun is great to kill all sorts of light armored vehicles too.

[maturin]

Could you post the source on those diagrams, please?

 

ED should fix for the future the behavior of the S-8KOM. With two Impact of S-8KOM the modern tanks must be out of battle.

AT weapons are not cumulative. It either penetrates or it doesn't. In the case of the S-8KOM, you can chuck them at an Abrams' turret all day and nothing will happen. Actually, you can spray them all over an Abrams and nothing is likely to happen. 400mm of penetration is extremely weak.

Edited January 7, 2014 by maturin

[GGTharos]

M-1's have been known to take multiple 120mm hits and continue operating. The S-8KOM isn't anywhere near as powerful as the 120mm guns.

 

I doubt you could have good results with this rocket at all in RL, never-mind just two hits ... unless you get very lucky. Use them against APC/IFVs, but MBTs ... not very successful.

 

ED should fix for the future the behavior of the S-8KOM. With two Impact of S-8KOM the modern tanks must be out of battle.

[Mustang]

Even A-10 pilots had special colouring books for this stuff :D

 

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_053c.html

[Davis0079]

If I recall correctly, the only M1 tank lost in battle during the Iraq war was to another M1 (friendly fire). They are considered one of the best on the planet (I have weird feelings about how in DCS the T-72 can kill whole columns of Abrams with no loses).....the Brits did very well in developing the new armor for the modern western vehicles.....they should be able to withstand alot......

 

...T-72 have been proven to burn very easily in real life do to the placement of the fuel cell in the rear...the Western world feared these things for years (late cold war)...till we got a hold of one and saw the major design flaws....comparable to the Japanese fighters of WWII...the T-72 are know as "Zippos" where I come from.....because the are guaranteed to light on the first strike....

 

....I do not suggest a change for DCS, these are just my very bias opinions given to me by the western propaganda machine (cable tv).

[maturin]

I doubt you could have good results with this rocket at all in RL, never-mind just two hits ... unless you get very lucky. Use them against APC/IFVs, but MBTs ... not very successful.

Well, the S-8KOM can defeat any MBT easily. You just need to use the same tactics as you would with the GAU-8. Hit the roof and rear armor.

 

It's only the 'two hits should always kill' mentality that is wrong. Shot placement is everything, and the S-8 penetrates vastly more armor than any amount of 30mm AP.

[pepin1234]

M-1's have been known to take multiple 120mm hits and continue operating. The S-8KOM isn't anywhere near as powerful as the 120mm guns.

 

I doubt you could have good results with this rocket at all in RL, never-mind just two hits ... unless you get very lucky. Use them against APC/IFVs, but MBTs ... not very successful.

 

The Su-25 could easyly hit the top of the Abrams turret and some others angles that the Abrams have nothing to do against the S-8KOM.

 

With a good Training a DCS Pilot can concentrate enough S-8KOM at the Top of the Turret, also the side of the Turret and both Sides are very weak even agains RPG-7. The Abrams have been covered by Air Units everytime in Irak so they never find a strong oposition of ATGM.

 

The S-8KOM have the capability to destroy and take out of combat an Abrams, thats sure.

 

Edited January 7, 2014 by pepin1234

[GGTharos]

The Su-25 could easyly hit the top of the Abrams turret and some others angles that the Abrams have nothing to do against the S-8KOM.

 

No, not easily. The top may only offer 200mm RHA in the old tanks, but this assumes that you are not hitting at an angle. A Su-25 will not dive 90 deg down at tank, and HEAT warheads are very sensitive to impact angle - the more 'off' you are, the less effective penetration they have.

 

The Su-25 can use better methods to attack a tank if it really has to, like dropping bombs, anti-tank cluster bombs and mines etc. Rockets are not as useful in this role. Every weapons has a best tactical application and I don't believe the S-8KOM is a very serious threat to a tank formation. An IFP/APC formation, that's another story.

 

With a good Training a DCS Pilot can concentrate enough S-8KOM at the Top of the Torret, also the side of the Turret and both Sides are very weak even agains RPG-7. The Abrams have been covered by Air Units everytime in Irak so they never find a strong oposition of ATGM.

 

The S-8KOM have the capability to destroy and take out of combat an Abrams, thats sure.

The ABRAMS is not weak against RPG-7. Usually M1's were only destroyed when the auxiliary fuel tank for the AUX motor was hit. That tank is exposed on the back of the turret, and when hit it would catch fire and spill into the engine compartment.

 

History simply does not support your claims, and funny little youtube videos are not exactly great indicators of capability.

 

Very few M1's were destroyed, and many were hit and remained operational.

[VapoR]

I can kill M-1s like I'm playing candy crush with S-13s. Probably not realistic but possible within the constraints of the sim.

[GGTharos]

With that huge a warhead I could see a tank being disabled.

[pepin1234]

 

History simply does not support your claims, and funny little youtube videos are not exactly great indicators of capability.

 

 

two more videos that make us take fun with this wonderful bird guys. Always do a good dive and the wonderful S-8KOM will do his job.

 

 

[GGTharos]

So you're going to get really close to the tank and hope that one of your rockets hits? Because what I see in those videos is rockets spreading out like they should ... meaning you cannot guarantee a successful hit on a tank.

 

What about the RuAF? Do they train to use use rockets like this on tanks?