Su-25 as antitank?

[NineLine]

I'm skeptical that Russian doctrine calls for rocket attacks against tanks. For pepin has never let a fact get in the way of his posts, or based his arguments on actual technical knowledge.

 

 

Yeah, makes more sense to me that maybe they like to load a rocket pod every time to have for special occasion, but seems odd that they would use it as a preferred ordnance for tank busting, but then I dont know.

[titanium]

What the US does not use rocket in the anti tank role is not relevant.

 

What is relevant is that s-8T rocket features a tandem warhead. What purpose does a tandem warhead serve? Against what type of vehicles are tandem warheads useful?

 

The fact that such rockets exist proves that rocket salvos from a su-25 or mi-24 against MBT is an option that would be considered by the Russian/USSR doctrine.

 

I think what some people are arguing is that in order to neutralize a MBT, you dont need total obliteration of the MBT. You need to break an track/damage a barrel/damage the engine etc. All of which will render a MBT combat ineffective. The tank crew might survive but so what?

[outlawal2]

This quite possibly has turned into the most asinine thread in DCS history.. Multiple hypothetical and yet WHOLLY IMPLAUSIBLE examples being argued to the point of ridiculousness...

 

DEAR GOD, GIVE IT A REST GUYS

[Hellfire257]

Well yes, I guess scorch marks and a dent might classify as damage (intentional exaggeration). You'll need to be lucky to do anything meaningful with a basic model.

[Davis0079]

I'm certainly not going to get in the middle of all this...but I will say one thing....when I fly the Blackshark I hate rockets.....I mean...they are nice and everything....but....when I run out of vickrs I RTB for more...I dont say , "Hey, I got 40 rockets, lets go kill something."...why...because I'm the one that gets killed...

 

I honestly feel the 30mm cannon on the Blackshark is a better choose then rockets...I can use up all my vickrs and get a couple more with the cannon....but rockets are a no no for me....

 

but...to each their own....I personally dont like doing a 10 min start up just to get hit on a stupid rocket run...it shows impatience and inexperience....not good for a chopper pilot

Edited January 8, 2014 by Davis0079

[pepin1234]

I'm certainly not going to get in the middle of all this...but I will say one thing....when I fly the Blackshark I hate rockets.....I mean...they are nice and everything....but....when I run out of vickrs I RTB for more...I dont say , "Hey, I got 40 rockets, lets go kill something."...why...because I'm the one that gets killed...

 

I honestly feel the 30mm cannon on the Blackshark is a better choose then rockets...I can use up all my vickrs and get a couple more with the cannon....but rockets are a no no for me....

 

but...to each their own....I personally dont like doing a 10 min start up just to get hit on a stupid rocket run...it shows impatience and inexperience....not good for a chopper pilot

 

I think tanks should be against Air-Targets with an Fire under Attack as standar setting with the Sim. When a Ka-50 come close, even at low altitud they are Aware of your presence.

 

Also the Tanks continue shooting like a fresh unit even when they are more than 50% damage. See track...

 

But is possible with S-8KOM and I do always after I eliminate all large guns and AAA Units.

S-8KOM Anti tank capability-Ka-50.trk

Edited January 8, 2014 by pepin1234

[Davis0079]

didnt say I couldn't do it...I said it was stupid....I got plenty of kills with rockets....but its a stupid tactic for such a vulnerable airframe...the cannon is a better weapon and I can kill things faster with the cannon and the shkval then you can with rockets....and I can do it without "running in"

 

and looking back...I counted that I used the word "I" 12 times and nowhere did I use the word "you", or "others" or "couldnt".....this is my personal opinion and not up for debate...

 

....."Rocket runs are stupid and foolish when other means are available....so are "gun runs" for that matter....but I dont do gun runs wtih the Ka-50....I snipe with it....cover and concealment.....its about being clever...not ballsy. "

 

besides this is off topic....we should be arguing about their effectiveness...so here goes..."They are NOT effective when compared to other weapon systems available."

 

ok...your turn....

[karambiatos]

the s-13 for example is much more accurate on the 25 than the ka-50, and can easily be used to destroy tanks, and what not, even outside of manpad range (though you have to be careful then).

[pepin1234]

didnt say I couldn't do it...I said it was stupid....I got plenty of kills with rockets....but its a stupid tactic for such a vulnerable airframe...the cannon is a better weapon and I can kill things faster with the cannon and the shkval then you can with rockets....and I can do it without "running in"

 

and looking back...I counted that I used the word "I" 12 times and nowhere did I use the word "you", or "others" or "couldnt".....this is my personal opinion and not up for debate...

 

....."Rocket runs are stupid and foolish when other means are available....so are "gun runs" for that matter....but I dont do gun runs wtih the Ka-50....I snipe with it....cover and concealment.....its about being clever...not ballsy. "

 

besides this is off topic....we should be arguing about their effectiveness...so here goes..."They are NOT effective when compared to other weapon systems available."

 

ok...your turn....

 

Specialy with the Ka-50 is hard to get a direct Impact.

 

I just want to say before. That the Tanks look harder than should be, because they are Aware all the time for the presence of Air-Units and they track you all the time, so what I mean that could be not realistic at all right now, because the reaction of a tank is always there even when you come from rear.

 

Also the smoke and the poor visibility after a rocket attack is enough to give the Helicopter some seconds to run without a efective tracking.

 

after some Impact of rockets the MBT should not have the same reaction, and they still aim to Shooting.

 

The rockets Need Training and after some Training you can see your result.

 

My personal experience in my Team is that nobody like use the rockets. After we spend all ATGM and cannon Munition I start my inbound with rockets, always with one ore two Units kills, some times with three. While the rest of the Team do RTB with non use of rockets.

 

I do my Training with rockets and that give me some succes.

[Maverick-X]

Thats an interesting topic, as I personally feel like "I got the rockets, why bring em home?" and on the other side "ok... you want to go in... but you'll get yourself killed!".

 

How often do you get out of rocket runs without even the need to repair because something important was shot? I mean, ofc I will run in with rockets when there are 2 MTLBs or similar left... But if the number of units is bigger or there is something with a good autocannon like a BMP or a (by any means way too effectivy against air targets) BRDM? No Cannon, no attack for me...

[pepin1234]

Thats an interesting topic, as I personally feel like "I got the rockets, why bring em home?" and on the other side "ok... you want to go in... but you'll get yourself killed!".

 

How often do you get out of rocket runs without even the need to repair because something important was shot? I mean, ofc I will run in with rockets when there are 2 MTLBs or similar left... But if the number of units is bigger or there is something with a good autocannon like a BMP or a (by any means way too effectivy against air targets) BRDM? No Cannon, no attack for me...

 

Yes you right. That Change when we coordinate the attack with other air Units. They should fly around the area and one unit should attack from other direcction. Thats work and we will see how the enemy Units not shoot you because they expect an attack from other direccion.

[Gate-5]

the s-13 for example is much more accurate on the 25 than the ka-50, and can easily be used to destroy tanks, and what not, even outside of manpad range (though you have to be careful then).

 

So much fun, but sometimes hard to spot the target without getting to low. They are nice against convoys too, just take S-13s only and saturate the area :gun_rifle:. Usually quite easy to destroy most of the vehicles when doing a nice steep dive.

 

For me rockets are not the most effective, but the most fun choice of weapon with the Su25. To bad there's not more use for the S-8, they dont even work well against soft targets. If theres need for a gun I either take the pods or change to the propper tool for the job (A-10). Guided rockets might be more efficient but I just dont like to throw fat, slow cigars at the enemy and pick them one by one till bingo fuel.

[Davis0079]

rockets are fun...and with the upgraded models by Bezel they are certainly one of coolest looking weapons in the game....mad props to those who can employ them effectively....

 

 

...another tactic I like is instead of doing a "run in"...using the rangefinder to get the correct ballistics and lofting whole salvos from afar and having it rain down like artillery.....great for softening up a cluster of enemy or a convoy ....but once again getting any solid hits on armor is rare and normally only 2-5 soft targets get hit in a 40 rocket salvo.....rockets can be used more effectively....but I get hit by small arms and dont consider myself qualified in that situation.....

[wasted]

Its a very interesting thread!

 

Just to drop my 2 cents:

 

Don't forget that S-8 and S-13 are the most popular and the most numerous weapon in soviet/russian arsenal, so most probably guided munition would be used only in some very special cases.

 

Also remember that we have the S-25, which is a huge unguided rocket that can kill a tank certainly and also we have an outdated S-24 rocket that still can do damage.

 

I think that definitely in any case of some war Su-25 will use unguided munition first. Just have a look at 2008.

[NineLine]

If you start talking different scenarios then you could really get to a point where you were forced to use rockets, but for the sake of the thread, and the OP, rockets shouldnt be your first choice when you have other, more reliable options available. That said, if you have them loaded, and all out of the guided munitions, nothing saying you cant throw those around too....

 

Its a very interesting thread!

 

Just to drop my 2 cents:

 

Don't forget that S-8 and S-13 are the most popular and the most numerous weapon in soviet/russian arsenal, so most probably guided munition would be used only in some very special cases.

 

Also remember that we have the S-25, which is a huge unguided rocket that can kill a tank certainly and also we have an outdated S-24 rocket that still can do damage.

 

I think that definitely in any case of some war Su-25 will use unguided munition first. Just have a look at 2008.

[karambiatos]

If you start talking different scenarios then you could really get to a point where you were forced to use rockets, but for the sake of the thread, and the OP, rockets shouldnt be your first choice when you have other, more reliable options available. That said, if you have them loaded, and all out of the guided munitions, nothing saying you cant throw those around too....

 

it sounds like your saying that you should load your su-25 with guided stuff only, which you should never do, 2 guided missiles should be the maximum amount you carry, if you want to be effective that is.

[NineLine]

it sounds like your saying that you should load your su-25 with guided stuff only, which you should never do, 2 guided missiles should be the maximum amount you carry, if you want to be effective that is.

 

Nope, I am saying load the best load-out for the task. If I am to kill a tank, then I am going to pick guided over unguided. I didnt say you couldnt improve your odds and load rockets as well. Maybe this will be better for the OP...

 

Mission is to kill 4 tanks. No air defences, no other units. Just purely killing 4 tanks.

 

What is your load-out for the Su-25

 

Share.

[159th_Falcon]

4 S-25L's ofcourse.

 

But on a random ground attack / CAS mission a good load out for me would be;

2 25ML's on inboard stations

4 S-8 KOM rocket pods

2 S-13 rocket pods

 

Could swap out 2 S8 for 25L or 29L depending on the mission.

(29 has larger range but not very good at hitting moving targets)

 

And a full load of flares, let others take care of radars.

[Frostie]

If I recall correctly, the only M1 tank lost in battle during the Iraq war was to another M1 (friendly fire). They are considered one of the best on the planet (I have weird feelings about how in DCS the T-72 can kill whole columns of Abrams with no loses).....the Brits did very well in developing the new armor for the modern western vehicles.....they should be able to withstand alot......

 

I think that statement belongs to the Challenger II, the only loss in combat was unfortunately to another Challenger II. The Challenger I which served in the first Gulf war destroyed 300 tanks without losing a single tank.

 

There were 18 M1's lost in the first Gulf war and in the invasion of Iraq a handful of M1's became un-operational after hitting IED's, mines or getting stuck and were consequently destroyed by US forces.

 

That's not to say the Abrams is an inferior tank, obviously the size of the task taken on by the US was huge compared to the Brits. Of the 1100 M1's used in combat 70% have been hit including hits taken from T-72's without suffering serious damage, that just show how resilient these tanks are.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-03-29-abrams-tank-a_x.htm?POE=click-refer

[eurofor]

(...)

 

Mission is to kill 4 tanks. No air defences, no other units. Just purely killing 4 tanks.

 

What is your load-out for the Su-25

 

Share.

 

I understand you're trying to prove your point by this scenario i.e. you wouldn't load unguided rockets specifically for this. I'd just like to point out one thing as this discussion comes down to real world tactics. In reality (CAS, BAI) you may not know exactly what the target is and the softer targets will most often outnumber the MBT's. Rockets can find many uses so bringing them still makes sense but for this specific threat I'd bring a pair of anti-tank cluster bombs (RBK-250/500 subtypes).

[NineLine]

I understand you're trying to prove your point by this scenario i.e. you wouldn't load unguided rockets specifically for this. I'd just like to point out one thing as this discussion comes down to real world tactics. In reality (CAS, BAI) you may not know exactly what the target is and the softer targets will most often outnumber the MBT's. Rockets can find many uses so bringing them still makes sense but for this specific threat I'd bring a pair of anti-tank cluster bombs (RBK-250/500 subtypes).

 

 

Fair enough, and above you will see Falcon gave an example for the 4 tanks and then 1 for general ground attack/CAS. And a number of times already, I have said that you dont just need to load guided, and I never said that you shouldnt take rockets, but again, going back to the OP, he wants to know what to use against tanks and that is what I asked.

[Esac_mirmidon]

And what about S-13, S-24, S-25 and S-25L?

[159th_Falcon]

And what about S-13, S-24, S-25 and S-25L?

 

For tanks? Why risk missing the target if you can (almost) guarantee a hit whit the 25L?

 

As for general load-out. Its nice but i like having at least a pair of guided missiles whit me in case of air defences i run into.

 

On another note, even though the S-24 and S-25 are very powerfull, there not very precise and still require a direct hit to take out the target.

If that happens to be some kind of structure or other large object that's fine.

 

But to hit a tank whit them, you need to get a lot closer then you really want.

 

Better launch some S-13's from a distance while still having a better change of getting a direct hit.

From a saver distance.

[pepin1234]

Nope, I am saying load the best load-out for the task. If I am to kill a tank, then I am going to pick guided over unguided. I didnt say you couldnt improve your odds and load rockets as well. Maybe this will be better for the OP...

 

Mission is to kill 4 tanks. No air defences, no other units. Just purely killing 4 tanks.

 

What is your load-out for the Su-25

 

Share.

 

*Against Tanks with IR defences:

 

4 Kh-25, 4 S-25L.

 

*Against Tanks with non IR defences:

 

2 Kh-25ML, 2 S-25L, 4 S-8KOM pylons,

 

*Against Tanks in movement:

 

2 Kh-25ML, 6 S-8KOM pylons

[NineLine]

See, look at that, we can be helpful, too bad the OP probably ran screaming away already lol....

 

*Against Tanks with IR defences:

 

4 Kh-25, 4 S-25L.

 

*Against Tanks with non IR defences:

 

2 Kh-25ML, 2 S-25L, 4 S-8KOM pylons,

 

*Against Tanks in movement:

 

2 Kh-25ML, 6 S-8KOM pylons