cow_art

That would be cool, but I don't think so. If it exists, I have not found it yet

Yes it's not very intuitive at the moment. I think it's "pedal microswitches are ON while you hold the Y key". The effects are easiest to see when you look at the control helper in the upper right corner: The yaw AP will go into damping mode while the Y key is held down. If Y key is not held, the AP is in heading hold mode (and will aggressively change the pedal trim position).

Unfortunately this is still happening and I find it quite frustrating. Any news on this?

As a software developer myself I can definitely feel your pain on this. The people who carefully read all your responses definitely know that by now. Everyone else probably not so much. Perhaps it would be a good idea to sticky a "Yes, the flight model is still unfinished. We know. We are working on it." post in the forum and provide a summary of all the improvements the SMEs suggested to the devs?

What is the recommended way to fly the Hind in DCS? ( FTR hold+maneuver+FTR release or maneuver first then click the FTR ) When in forward flight I usually press and hold FTR during maneuvers (that way the AP does not get confused and the helicopter remains stable once I let go of the FTR). If someone wants to get better at that, then flying the Hind with the AP channels off seems a valid way to practice.

Ok for the sake of argument I just tested that. Hot Start in Cyprus. Helicopter at 100% weight. 25 degrees Celsius. I pick her up, hover a bit, fly a few 100 meters around on the parking lot and put her back down. No problem at all. Track attached. M24_Cyprus_Test.trk

Do you experience the same problem when you configure a hot start in the mission editor? (Also: power gen fail often happens when you raise the collective too quickly. Perhaps being more gentle helps? )

Yea exactly. With all DCS helos you can easily have the throttle on keys (or even drag the throttle with the mouse) and be just fine. Usually you only set the throttle once (during startup) then you never touch it again. At least that's what I have been doing for the last few years and I never felt like I was missing anything.

Thank you for your time and for explaining this so clearly. So my takeway message is: in reality there are at least two techniques (either press and hold FTR or move controls enough to exceed breakout values) both of which are currently not working correctly in DCS ... which is fine, it's early access after all. But for me that also means I can stop trying to "get good" flying the Apache until the FM is much closer to finished. Currently I feel it's an exercise in frustration and now I understand whatever I'll learn now, I'll have to unlearn when the SCAS is updated. Thanks again for the clear communication!

Yes absolutely! I am not a real pilot, it's only how I currently _THINK_ it might work (based on common sense and a few SME comments i have seen on the forums). It sure would be great if someone with actual knowledge of the Apache could comment on how it is supposed to work and how actual procedures look like. I'm always happy to be proven wrong, no better way to learn Great video btw, I sure need a lot more practice

Yea I noticed something similar. When ATT hold is in velocity hold submode (between 5 and 40 knots) then the SAS will absolutely fight every correction you try to make with the cyclic ... until it saturates and emits the warning sound. I think the correct procedure would be to press and hold the force trim release button, make corrections then release the button again. If I understand correctly that SHOULD temporarily disable the hold functionality of the SAS (but not the dampening functionality). But this is not how it currently works in DCS: holding the force trim release currently seems to completely disable the SAS. If you want to keep ATT hold on, this basically only leaves you the choice if you prefer to fight the SAS or you rather want to fight the raw helicopter, both of which are.. not optimal. I hope this is addressed soon.

Not sure what you mean? Using arrow keys + trim currently works ... in principle. But it is unreliable, quirky and IMHO not a very good solution. What I suggested in the post linked above is to have dedicated directional trim buttons like for example the Hind has. Those would be unrealistic for the Apache, that's why I labeled them as "cheat". Those dedicated trim buttons are a wish list item and it seems very few people are interested in them. So the workaround (arrows + quickly press trim) is what we currently have.

You can use the cursor keys and then immediately press the force trim release button to store the new position. It works but it's just a workaround. I suggested ED add a directional trim cheat to the module here: but the suggestion didn't create a lot of traction.

I am assuming you are talking about the nose-down problem you mentioned above. Could you please elaborate what exactly you did to fix it? Thanks!

Yea, true. If you quote it like that it sounds trivial and silly Sorry for being unclear. What I meant to say was that during that kind of attack it works well for me to not chase the I-Beam for the entire attack run. Keeping the LOS indicator on the target for a longer time can feel awkward (that was the premise of the entire discussion). Instead I just run in roughly aligned with the target. I only put the LOS on the target when I am almost ready to fire (and then briefly use the I-Beam to fine-tune my aim). I realize that's probably not proper technique, but in DCS it has worked well for me so far.

Good question! For me it usually takes a while after the first Trim Up before I really start to notice the problems with the SCAS in flight behaviour. When I do a Trim Reset after I already notice these problems, then the trim reset does not help. The SCAS then still seems to act weird, even though it often does not look saturated to me (none of the green markers are stuck at the edge auf the authority box - but I don't know for sure. We are still missing the SAS Saturated warning message that should pop up). But if I do "Trim Reset" and then immediately also do a "SCAS Destaurate" (hold Trim-Up for 5 seconds until green markers have returned to center) THEN everything indeed feels like starting fresh and I find the Apache extremely easy and predictable again. And it seems to remain that way, until I start using Trim Up again. In Singleplayer I usually toggle the Active Pause while I do this reset (so I don't have to move my controls during SCAS desaturate). Seems to work well here. But I realize the whole thing might be a bit subjective. Would be interesting to know if other players experience this the same way. Can't rule out I am just imagining things.

Yes, but I believe that this effect of the SCAS working against the pilot input becomes far more pronounced, when you trim the cyclic/rudder away from the initial (centered) position. That seems like a bug to me (or some gross misunderstanding on my part). I again did a long flight yesterday without touching the trim at all (just holding stick/rudder in place). I encourage everyone who has helicopter experience but struggles with the Apache to try that: Take it for a flight and don't touch the force-trim up button! I am simply amazed at how easy, predictable and smooth everything feels. I find it extremely simple to handle, as long as I keep my fingers away from the trim button.

I tried to explain what I mean in this report and attached a track. I dont know, perhaps I am just doing / expecting something wrong? Would be greatful for feedback.

Edit/TLDR: I believe the SCAS might somehow be working against the pilot inputs. But only when the controls are trimmed off-center. Could this be a bug? Details below. Apologies for the long post but the problem I am trying to describe is kinda subtle. I am not sure if this is a bug or intended behaviour, but I find it puzzling and would be grateful if someone could explain to me what happens and why. Track attached. I am using center trim mode for both stick and pedals. I do 3 short takeoffs and hover "attempts". Before every takeoff I center the trim and hold force-trim up until the green markers are centered in the control indicator. 1st takeoff I leave the trimmed position at the center and do nothing fancy. I just take off and hover. Watch the SCAS indicator for the rudder. It is basically centered around the white indicator which shows my current rudder position. Of course I am not the greatest pilot so the SCAS goes a bit to the left and right sometimes to stabilize the hover. But in general it stays centered around the white marker. This behaviour is pretty consistent with my expectations. (land, center controls, desaturate SCAS) 2nd takeoff Before takeoff I push the rudder to the right a bit, press and release force trim up. The trimmed rudder position is now a bit to the right side of the center (the red rudder trim indicator has moved to the right). I take off and try to hover again. The green SCAS indicator for the rudder now appears much less centered on my actual rudder position (white indicator). It is visibly shifted to the right (towards the side where the rudder is trimmed). It appears to be working against the position I am trying to hold with the pedals. I keep the hover up for a bit and then land again. The green SCAS indicator is now stuck at the far right side of its authority box (SCAS saturated?). Is that really correct/intended behaviour? At least it is not at all what I would expect. I would expect the SCAS to behave exactly like during first takeoff (mostly centered around the white marker, stabilizing my moves. Not with an obvious bias towards the right side). (land, center controls, desaturate SCAS) 3rd takeoff (bonus question) Before takeoff I pull the cyclic back about 50%, press and release force trim up. Recenter the stick, then pull it back again all the way (as far as it can go) and hold it there for a few seconds. Then I let go of the stick again and recenter trim. The SCAS indicator for the cyclic is now stuck at the bottom of its authority box. I move the stick around a bit just to check if the SCAS indicator can in fact still move (it does). Now I take off. The SCAS keeps applying full back pressure (as far as it is allowed). I have quite some trouble keeping the Apache stable. Again my question: is that intended&correct behaviour? If yes, could someone please explain to me why this happens and what I am doing wrong? This behaviour makes the helicopter really hard to control for me. And it seems that this only happens when I use the force trim. If I just hold the cyclic/rudder in place without ever using force trim-up, then I can fly for extended periods of time without any odd behaviour. Thanks! AH64-SAS.trk

I don't think its just me misunderstanding how trim works in DCS helos. And I don't think it's just a sensitivity problem either. I mostly tap the trim. I know holding the trim-up button pressed deactivates and re-centers the SCAS (not sure if completely deactivating the SCAS is correct in this case, but it's what currently happens). This makes things "wobbly" but not terribly un-intuitive (if you are familiar with other DCS helos). Without SCAS, the Apache behaves very similar to the Hind with all AP channels disabled (a bit more twitchy, but similar). I am familiar with that and this effect is NOT what I am talking about. What I am talking about is a bit hard to explain. To me it looks like the SCAS (green marker in controls indicator) is starting to gradually work against my virtual stick/rudder position (white marker) and towards the trimmed position (red marker). But that seems to happen only when force trim (tap) has been used and the trimmed position is far away from the center. Apologies for being unable to describe it better. I'm currently at work, but perhaps I can provide a better description or record a track tonight.

Yea I am also pretty convinced something is wrong. I currently suspect something related to way the FCS interacts with the force trim / trimmed position of the helo. Yesterday I noticed that the Apache is a lot more well behaved when you NEVER touch the "force trim up" button at all. I could fly the Apache for over an hour without anything weird happening (basically until my arm got tired from constantly holding the cyclic in place). No weird behaviour for over an hour. Then, as soon as I start using the force trim, the SCAS starts to act weird and does things I don't understand until it gets stuck and needs to be desaturated. But it's really hard to describe for me, so I can't really create a good bug report for it. Anyway, I think the SCAS is still work in progress and they'll probably fix it at some stage. (Disclaimer: yes I know how the trim modes work in DCS, I am familiar with all other DCS helos and never had similar problems in any of them)

Related to OP's point 1.) How well does it fly? This early access release is a bit puzzling to me. From a system modeling perspective the Apache feels pretty far along. But from a flight perspective it is somewhat of a mixed bag. The raw flight model might be pretty much finished. I can't really say as I am not a real pilot, but the raw Apache feels pretty much like other raw helicopters feel in DCS. (A bit more twitchy than I expected, but I can totally belief that's authentic). What currently seems to be heavily WIP is the Stability and Control Augmentation System (SCAS). If nothing else, there are definitely some hold modes missing, which makes slow flight and hovering more challenging than it probably should be. I also have had situations where the SCAS did wonky things I can not explain (I know that SCAS saturation is modeled and that might certainly contribute to my confusion, but I doubt that this is responsible for ALL the weird behaviours I have seen so far). I personally expect there are still some bugs and inaccuracies in the SCAS implementation (But I think its generally accepted that this part is still WIP, so writing vague bug reports is probably a waste of time at this stage). Bottom line: from a pure helicopter flight perspective my guess would be that its not finished or close to the "fully real" experience yet. That said, in its current state the Apache is already pretty cool and I'd definitely buy it again. It just might be a good idea to adjust your expectations and don't expect a finished flight experience yet.

Does anybody know if the Apache's behaviour during SCAS desaturation is already realistically modelled in DCS? For me the helicopter currently becomes very unstable while I hold force trim release. As a result I find it quite hard to perform this procedure without wobbling about like it's my first time in a DCS helo. I think that currently happens because of two reasons: - the SCAS does not produce any more stabilizing inputs at all (is that realistic? it sure might be, just curious) - the SCAS offset (green marker) is zeroed over a period of a few seconds. That leads to a completely new effective trimmed position and requires me to manually (and gradually) add the control inputs that the SCAS desaturation is removing. Unless I have the Controls Indicator turned on, I see no way to predict how one is supposed to counteract these changes. So is anyone in the know how this is done in reality? Or are Apache pilots just that good that it's not an issue for them?

Interesting idea! The rockets sure can be used in a lot of different ways. I currently find it easiest to treat them similar to the gun. Everybody agrees the Apache's gun is awesome and easy to use, right? I like to think of the rockets as a gun that can only fire straight forward (but can adjust up/down). So my current method for aiming rockets is as follows 1. fly straight towards the target (either line the target up with the diamond on the HUD or use the white line you discovered, whichever one finds easier) 2. periodically look at the target (place LOS reticule on target) 3. if target is in range (I-beam becomes solid) FIRE. If not in range, wait a bit then GOTO 2. That way I don't have to keep my head still for a long time. I just need to keep flying straight towards the target, periodically look at the target and decide if I want to take the shot. I tend to mostly ignore the I-Beam, but in that final phase it can be very useful to see if a.) you are in range and b.) you are lined up correctly

That makes a lot of sense, thank you! So how do you deal with this in reality? Are you waiting for the "SAS SATURATED" message to pop up, and then recenter the SAS sleeve when it happens? Or do you do it periodically so you don't have the SAS Saturated message pop up at an inconvenient time?