Nightdare

Not stock, that is what the finger lift kit is for

First off, WW are morons for calling it that since it's the F16 stick with F18 grips, their (bad) redesign of the site apparently kinda threw both me and @MustangSally off, so, sorry about that your link has the cheapest stick, no shaker, the cheapest grips and is missing the finger lift kit

I don't see a Warthog throttle on the WW site -excluding the F-16 single engine setup- just the orion2 with either F-18 and F-15 throttle grips (and F-18 or F-16 stick)

They aren't the same, Warthog is 1990's tech at 2024 price (and with a lot less switches and dials)

...yeah, about that

If this is how Moza wants to sell this setup, then I'm glad someone did a "Hold up a minute!" Spudknocker isn't doing anyone a disservice by giving a heads up that Moza's mounting solution sucks, I think this quick preliminary actually has lots of good info (though none we'd like to hear) So no, he didn't mention this should probably be used with an extension (if the motors can actually handle that), but that's also not mentioned anywhere in the marketing and deskmounting isn't the best idea for an FFB base period, but hey, it's -as stated- a quick review Why am I suspecting people here are too emotionally invested for this to succeed, they'll go as far as vilifying a reviewer that is factually right in his criticism?

...Which most of us are OR he put the Virpil mount next to the Moza (which IS in the correct position) to quickly compare the 2? Just a hunch, or do you also mount 2 sticks next to each other for better flying? That he isn't able to reach his pedals may be because the base is too wide when having it in your crotch @Hiob 's observation is on point, but is simply ignoring that the desk and deskmount don't allow for that, if the 'average simmer' wants to incorprate this, he might be screwed and it's a good thing Spudknockerpointed this out and AFAIK, it's easier to change a deskmount than a desk Are we not looking at the same picture? The Moza stick IS mounted higher than the Virpil (by at least an inch, maybe even two), which could make all the difference in being able to rest your hand or not

I'm with @Cab on this one, kindly point out what he's doing wrong instead of making it out as if FFB is only supposed to be for the Elite Simmers among us He's using the means Monza has given him and they are not correct, they aren't incorrectly assembled, they are by design incorrect If Moza wants to reach an as large as possible market, they are also gonna have to be able to sell this to people below "dedicated simpit builders"

I don't get it, he warns people not to jump in just yet (or in the very least shows some shortcomings when 'amateurs' try to incorporate this in their setup) ...and this is somehow wrong?

Testpilot: "What is this lever: 'Chassis'?" Engineer: "That's for the undercarriage" Testpilot: "Well, why doesn't it say 'Undercarriage' then?" Engineer: "....Uhhhmmmm"

Thank you. That's actually a tad smaller than I thought (figured it would be about 20"x15")

LZoAgd.mp4

I don't get the irritation Last I checked: Navy planes could operate from land bases as well I currently haven't trained any other plane than the F-14 (bar spitfire and Mozzie), so in this map, I'll be operating the turkey from Airstrip E-Z-mode

@LASooner Can I ask: what are the LxW dimensions of your left/left control panel? (Inlet ramps to volume panel)

The 4080s will do multiplayer at 28 fps with my Reverb, all settings at max (at 1.5 PD and no cheating with DLSS or OpenXR)

I'm one of those, but without that adapter, no sale, so it's almost imperative to make that adapter available again to reach a large market as possible ...and there are a lot of people with Virpil and TM grips

Yes, so using a TM or Virpil grip with these FFB bases won't be an option, which was my point

The TM adapter, just check the link from WW's site, there's the quote from

I believe the other reason is because the WRBRD springs aren't strong enough to center the weight on full (20cm) extensions

IIRC Virpil works with TM, Winwing needs an adapter for TM, so I'd think that adapter is needed for Virpil as well,, thing is that you need to open up your TM grip to change the connector and it doesn't say anywhere Virpil has/needs the same internal TM connection https://eu.winwingsim.com/view/goods-details.html?id=321 Also: Items out of stock

Problem I see personally, is that it won't work with Virpil grips and I don't want to lose my VFX grip

Well, they were THE gear to have 20 years ago, and say all you want, but the Warthog is still loved by many after 14 years, some still use it from release date Don't deny every serious Simmer wanted a TM until Virpil, VKB showed they could do better (but not actually cheaper, that was shown by Winwing) 40 years ago, cars rusted to hell within a few years, not anymore, because the quality of the material improved and became cheaper That's why you are getting better stuff these days Ah yes, marketing, because no company uses that Of course in the time of the Warthog using metal, that many plastic joystick's housings cracked seems to be so long ago, most have forgotten that happened That chinese materials and labor are much cheaper than western? How am I wrong in thinking that? Really? Market size is not a good metric? It's what gives incentives for companies to chase How many people,... Upswing? Yes But, how much? Selling 2000 Hotas instead of 1000 is a 100% sales increase, but is that a large market? No! How good, that it's growing is a positive development, but that says nothing about how big the market will get, it may even shrink again You'd be surprised how little margin Ferrari makes, also, can everyone afford a Ferrari? But inflation is just the value of money over time, not products I bought my USA Jackson guitar in 2001 for $2500, the same guitar will cost me OVER $5000 now, that's a bigger increase in price than the inflation I showed for the money one bought a MSFFB No, you need to compare contemporary technology Yes technology improved since then, but as the tech now is the only tech you have, the same was true back then Ferrari is co-owned by Dutch holding company Exor They need a big financial backer to remain viable, yes, they are making money NOW, their history shows exceptions No, drugs are a bigger market We agree on one thing You're not gonna get a cheap FFB joystick, don't look at the low end market, look at midrange, then add FFB You can't build FFB on a budget chassis without improving quality (= cost), there are a bit more forces involved I point back at the available tech and quality of materials in the past, it was what was available then, and we are using what is available now You are making an unfair comparison And again, you're not gonna get a $300 FFB joystick built on a $110 budget offering It needs more R&D, tech materials and quality to last (Not to mention takes up twice as much volume and weight in logistics, so you can only ship half the amount at the same shipping price) I don't care about your feelings, I care about practicality and viability What you desire is a Ducati Supersport 950 for everyone, at the price of a Honda CB650R, while most people only have a car license

No it isn't, that's why it's 'cheap' That last line is key Cheap work is not good/Good work is not cheap You can't have your cake and eat it, sorry Not really, these days, in a lot of markets, you're getting even less than what you previously paid for Yes,... by Chinese manufacturers, once they have to pay a US department to sell their products, things won't be so cheap Yes, more popular, how much? As much as the Sim racing Market? Not by a long shot Also, just because Warthunder seems to attract lots of players isn't because those players want to fly with sim gear, it's because they don't have to invest in sim gear to play in the first place Most players don't even play SB and most of those don't use sim gear Perhaps you are overstating the demand You are making it look like the Flight sim market is huge I rest my case Market size Initial investment is earned back a lot sooner in the sim racing market https://news.microsoft.com/1999/09/21/a-match-made-in-heaven/ $129 retail in 1999 (Which was a friggin load of money for a joystick back then, especially for a kid to buy) Just like with high end instruments: they are not a company's moneymaker There is a reason Ferrari is owned by Fiat Alright, so I was off $550, now I ask again: "which is the bigger market"? Where do you think they will recover their investment sooner? and how many of those R3 bundles are actually sold? for 5 bills, I'm sure it's not the lowest price, still also not a price for beginners Yes, I've read the press reviews, the user reviews aren't all as positive So we're back at 250 for a non FFB simracing setup So we talked about that $250 MSFFB2 after inflation, now add $ for a twist function Also: Don't forget to use old style pots by the way, putting in modern tech, my $300+ is right on the money so that $110 stick needs another 250 for a throttle, we're at 300+ without FFB even added Remember that 2nd hand doesn't make manufacturers money ...but I least am not overestimating the flight sim market share, or the fact that a single-motor FFB peripheral is already $300 (and then we're not even mentioning quality)

IIRC, Virpil, though the brake lever will be a switch, not an axis (but I believe this is already the case with a TM base)

There are a ton of cheap options available, people just want a complete flight setup for $100, that's not gonna happen You get what you pay for, IMO the TWCS at about that price point where "budget" begins That is not how pricing works, THE question is always: "How much are people willing to pay for this product" Which is why the FFB market a long time was empty, it was not possible to produce a product for the price people were willing to pay Look at the lifespan of the Logitech G940, they basically made it until they got their R&D/Setup out of it and killed it Sim Racing is a market much, MUCH bigger that Flightsim A wheel and pedal can be had for $250, whereas a full TWCS setup is available at $220, I'm still betting more budget wheels are being sold Take the price of the Ursa Major, add extra production costs, molds, electronics, software design, packaging, distribution + profit margin ...you just made a FFB flightstick costing $300+ made of cheap plastics and electronics It is viable, just not at budget price, and not with too many competitors You can't simrace with just a wheel Their cheapest FFB setup that can get you into the game, which is just the wheel and base, is $729 ...still would need a $180 pedal set to get the least bit of actual simracing feeling (Might as well get a decent USB controller for $100 without it) That's $900, just to get started,... where's your Moza budget build? A whole stick+throttle+pedals setup from TM buys you the TWCS for $220, You're not gonna get much cheaper than that Define "cheap", now reflect that on "realistic"