Gman109

I've posted here frequently, long before Virpil had it's own forum section on ED's forums, regarding Virpil and HOTAS in general. I've collected HOTAS since I was editor @ combatsim.com back in the late 90s, and before that as well - being in the "review" biz back then, meant I got everything sent to me from all the hotas companies. Now, I buy them all myself. I have over 3 dozen sets of various hotas/sticks, I mention this to give perspective on the long experience I have using all of the various units out there. I was an early adopter, bought a single stick first back when Virpil had just begun selling the T50, but one more used, then another full T50 from Vipil, giving me 2 T50. ALso have purchased 2 throttles (one slightly used), and 2 Warbrds (again, one from Virpil, one used). I also have 3 of the first gen desk mounts. There are plenty of reviews out there, on Youtube Noobifier's channel does a far better job than I can writing here, in terms of reviewing the Viripl sticks and internals. My experience with Virpil has been excellent. Compared to the 4 Warthogs I've gone through, their gimbal designs and quality can't be matched, other than by VKB, which IMO is a close competitor. The other major positive is Virpil's very fast customer service responses. Whenever I've had trouble, software issues, etc, they've been there on the same day for me (they say 72 hours, but I've NEVER had to wait that long with a support ticket email, not even close). They've remoted into my system and fixed things for me twice, and talked me through other issues. I've had no hardware failures in my 4 Virpil sticks I've used, or 2 throttles. Again, regarding the quality, and how they work/etc, there are piles of video reviews out there covering this. The negatives - Mostly these are regarding stock. Due to being a small startup, (and a very passionate one), Virpil rarely has full sticks/throttles just sitting in stock to be bought. It's a bit of work to get yourself their products, again, it's due to the nature of Virpil being a new company, however they are offering pre orders at the moment to offset this. With a little perseverance, you CAN get their products, but again, you won't often find units just sitting waiting for you to click buy now. You have to work a bit for these things, but it's certainly worth it. Their first T50 also had the strongest locktite known to man on their cams, and a lot of users (count me in) stripped screws trying to change them out, resulting in some creative machine rescue work to get the screws out. This is the ONLY issue I've had, and again, it was their first run, which they've corrected on the new Warbrd units I've bought. Virpil makes fantastic products, they are a trustworthy and passionate company, which we're fortunate to have in this community of flight simmers. A fellow I've flown with in another online fight sim (a MMO WW2 sim that's been around since 1999), met the Viripl folks while he was in country with the US army. His posts online about this, as well as Noobifier's videos, sold me on Virpil. I'd have bought them anyway for my collection, but they've become my "go to" HOTAS - and I have every Hotas and multiple gaming PCs in my home. I have both their mounts, Monster's mounts, and I use a WarBrd on desktop with one PC. Lots of options available, and there is a new T50 unit coming, along with a new stick or two to complement the 4 sticks they have already. The old adage of "you get what you pay for" applies here. They aren't cheap, they aren't as easy to get as some, but the Virpil products are worth the effort, money, and time IMO.

^^ Agreed GregP. I've been wondering if a company based in China would get into the mix with a new HOTAS. Good for you Winwing, I wish you all the best in this venture. I collect Hotas, and I'm pretty excited to add whatever you put out into my collection. Looks great, depending on your gimbal/etc, you could have a contender here, big time. Also, looking through your website, it's obvious you already have the technical capability and experience to make something great IMO. The constant state of lack of stock with the current new kids on the block (Virpil/VKB) IMO shows that there is a massive interest and market for these products - WinWing you guys could swoop right in and grab a share of the pie, and expand it, especially since the old kid on the block hasn't done much in the last 8 years (yes I know they released new pedals, but still no new promised changeable sticks in 8+years for the WH, and no new models either). Very promising....

Yep, the plastics and materials Virpil uses are great IMO. I do of course like the metal TM sticks still, in fact that's about the ONLY thing I like about TM after being on my 4th Warthog stick. I wouldn't say no to a Virpil metal stick, but they by no means need to make one IMO, their current stick quality is really fantastic, and I've been using the T50 since the week they released them, and put that first stick through the ringer. Still works, and mostly looks like new too. Can't wait to see the new T50CM2 up close - I'm using a Cougar stick in one of my Warbrds, and even though that actually feels and works pretty decently, I really want that CM2 stick with the extra hat.

Mine are the BF109Cam, I haven't tried or even seen any of the other Slaw models up close. I wish he could make them faster...part of the reason they are so good I think is that he spends a LOT of time building them. I ordered mine back in Jan 2015 before he got even MORE popular, and it still took 3 months. Consider myself lucky as they've increased in price by about 30 or 40%. Baur is the one set I don't have that I'd like to try, hopefully now that he works with a larger new stick manufacturer they'll be putting out some pedals together sometime this year.

I wondered what that stuff was called with the MFGs - I did say "mostly metal" for the MFG, and "nearly all metal" for the VKB. Should be changed to "mostly not" for the MFGs, was just typing too quickly.

For custom pedals the Xwinds or VKB peds as stated. I have both, as well as a set of Slaws I bought back in 2015 for $375 Euro, much cheaper than now. Slaw are more $ than the other 2 alternatives and take much, much longer. IMO either the VKB or MFG would be a better option for OP. I'll list off a few random thoughts in no particular order about the VKB and MFG pedals - VKB are usually in stock, MFG Xwind it's nearly always going to be a wait(right now for once a very short wait, they are delivering today by March 4th). VKB pedals are less expensive by about $50 USD than the MFGs. VKB and MFG move in a different plane of motion as well. The VKB pedals, it's more of an ankle movement, a more fine motor skill control IMO, where as the MFG pedals move like most commercially available non custom peds, such as the CH/Saitek and so forth. Your feet sit on the pedal rests of the MFG and they sort of rotate around a center point in between them. The VKB pedals while attached to one another in terms of motion, are controlled more by a toe press/ankle movement as stated, while the MFG move with more of an heel press/motion from the entire lower leg or knee. I guess one way to explain this is that the VKB entire rudder pedal motion is sort of like pressing the toe brakes on a larger scale with most other types of pedals (which is why there IS no toe brakes with the VKB pedals). It's just personal pref, but I find I have more fine control with the VKB due to the way they move. MFG Crosswinds are much nicer to look at, by far, have larger and probably for most users a more comfortable pedal to rest feet upon, as well as hardware toe brakes. The VKB toe brakes don't really exist outside of a software "work around", which I dislike compared to the actual moving pedal toe brakes available on the MFGs. Both the MFG and VKB are mostly made of metal (nearly all metal), and both are very high quality products IMO, with good support in my experience. edit/correction - Both MFG and VKB are made of metal (some metal/aluminum for the MFG, nearly all metal for the VKB). You would be very happy with either set IMO.

Throw my oar in the water here. I got a couple 9900k CPUs very early, one of the first other than reviewers to get a CPU or two. I ordered the Asus Maximus Hero XI z390 board, and got it in early November. Built a system around that, 9900k/Asus ROG Hero z390, 32 gb 3200 Gskill, M.2 1 TB drives, 2080tis, etc etc. System ran great for 2 days. Hadn't overclocked it yet, just stock speeds, and then boom, blue screen of death about 49 hours into using it. Had to trouble shoot every component, and it came down to the motherboard. I'll also mention that 2 of the SATA ports on this MB didn't work out of the box, but after putting the whole system together, I wasn't going to pull it apart and RMA the board for 2 ports I wasn't using anyway (I just used other ports that did work for my Evo 860 SSD drives). Anyone who has had to do this knows what a GIANT PITA it is to figure out which component has died...was it the new CPU, the PSU, etc etc etc? You need another PC pretty much in order to swap things in and out of, and with how new the z390 and 9900k/2080ti/etc were a few months back, this took some doing. So, I had to buy a local Asrock MB as there was nothing else in stock close by in order to troubleshoot the CPU/PSU/2080ti, as all the usual steps for checking the MB wouldn't get it to post, and I was pretty sure it was the culprit then. Contact NewEGG (first time dealing with them as I have a Canadian dealer MemoryExpress I almost always use, but they weren't getting the CPU/GPU for another 2 months back then), NewEgg tells me tough crap and to contact Asus. Put up a 1 star review on Newegg of the board, and Asus contacts me. Send them the board (at my expense). They tell me one of the socket pins was slightly bent, and void my warranty. The pin was NOT bent, I'll post pics of the board I took prior to sending it in. It wasn't even the socket which caused the failures, plus the 2 ports out of the box not working - they didn't care. I've purchased dozens of Asus boards and GPUs in the past. Not to mention at least a dozen ROG LCD monitors including 2 4k 144hz PG27UQs, a 34" ROG Gsync, 3 27" ROG Gsync 2 of which were the 165hz IPS units, and 3 of the original 144hz 24" Asus gaming panels. Provided them receipts and serials of this. Asus didn't care. To hell with Asus, I'll be actively avoiding them from now on. It's not the $, I spend thousands yearly (probably monthly is more accurate) on PC gaming gear, and the $350 CAD cost is negliable. It's just them not honoring their warranty that pisses me off. What happens with the 3 year warranty on the $2000 4k/27"/Gsync monitors if they fail in the future?

7 month old Samsung Odyssey, barely used, sat on the shelf for the last few months since I got the +/Vive Pro/Pimax units in. Like new condition, hand controllers only have been powered up to test, not used as well. Will ship in the original boxes with all contents included inside. Purchased June 15/2018 from the Microsoft store in Canada, will provide original receipt as it still is under warranty. Located in central Canada, prefer North American sale, but will discuss options. Shipped by purchasers choice and at their cost. Accept EMT and paypal for payment. Pictures on request by email. Gman109

Vive Cosmos "may" have higher res, in fact it absolutely will, it's just guarded intel right now with regards to how much. I think the Vive Pro Eye will have the same res as the Pro, just with the eye tracking. I'm hoping the Cosmos has much higher res too...

Asus or Acer? I have 2 of the Asus PG27UQ myself right now, and have precisely the same opinion. The $ these monitors cost ($2000 CAD on sale during Black Friday and Boxing day) is worth it. As good as the prior 27 and 34" 1440p Gsync Alienware and Asus/Acer monitors I have are, these new ones with the very high nit/brightness levels along with the HDR, 4k, etc etc features....incredible. Someday I hope VR headsets have the same resolution and quality, that'll be 5 years IMO, but worth the wait. TBH they don't make that great of a difference in my experience. I have a few different "racing/gaming" chairs, DXRacer/etc types which swivel very well, yet try swiveling around while using your HOTAS accurately simultaneously. It can be done, sort of, but it's much, much slower than TrackIR, and much less accurate as well IMO. If VR ever solves the peripheral vision thing, it'll be a huge step forward on this issue. Also I saw one guy who had a home pit with an actual Hornet (I think, it was some F series fighter anyway) partial cockpit with the handgrips up top on the rails, and when in VR he uses those just like in real life to help turn his body to look in the rear quarters. His demonstration of this looked like it work very effectively. I'll try and find the YT video of this and link it.

The Eurofighter/Typhoon has a tail that produces positive lift (I think).

With some developers and companies this could be accurate I suppose, but with ED/DCS, with the exception of the Hawk, which wasn't EDs fault IMO, it just hasn't been demonstrably the case IMO. I mean look at the Hornet module. Just check the list of changelogs/updates since it was released on day 1 of early access. There has been an absolute PILE of continual updates, additions, and improvements. ED/DCS/Devs here have been getting better IMO in terms of how rapidly they are pumping this stuff out. I think your opinion is a bit too negative in ED's case, just my opinion though, and again, there are game developers out there who are absolutely guilty of this. I choose to support Heatblur with early access purchases, but nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head here...it's a risk sure (an extremely small one for not a large sum of $ IMO), but for that you're rewarded with a discount - I'm also confident they'll finish what they've started, and man, from the vids out there, have they ever started something great.

IMO VR is superior for the non -PVP experience. However, if you're into competitive online play where you'll be dogfighting other human opponents, TrackIR will bust a VR player's butt in most cases, and I'm happy to demonstrate this (I have owned and used several Vives, Rifts, Odyssey, Odyssey+ now, and a Pimax 5k, as well as been playing competitively with the trackIR system since it's inception). VR doesn't simulate your eyeballs peripheral vision very well, which means in order for your eyes in VR to see airborne targets behind you in that cone of vulnerability, you have to turn around in your chair and look almost directly at them. With TrackIr this isn't the case, you can scale it and remain in your seat almost motionless with regards to your body, and only need slight head movements to look 360 around your aircraft, which makes a massive difference in the ability to rapidly, comfortably, accurately, and consistently put your eyes on threats, particularly in your rear quarters, hold them in visual contact, while simultaneously using your hotas controllers to maneuver with them. Just my opinion, but most who fly competitively in this game or others against other online players will echo this, and again, I'm happy to demonstrate me in trackIR vs anyone in VR if they disagree. VR does an exceptional job right now of creating an immersive feeling in flight, and I do much of my DCS time in the Odyssey+, Vive 2.0, and now in the near future my Pimax5k. When I'm going to be playing against other opponents online though, the VR comes off, and tir comes on, as I'm just far, far more effective in fighting with it for the reasons stated above. If forced to pick just one, it'd likely go to VR as I just couldn't give up the immersion factor now, and I'd just be much slower/crappier at head 2 head.

X2 here, ditto on all counts, I have almost identical system specs.

Best Hotas: Complex question without more information from you OP, in terms of budget, desk/cockpit config, etc. VR: The experience is great, but requires pretty high end CPU and GPU hardware for the best experience. If head to head PVP online multiplayer is important to you as well, you won't be quite as competitive in my experience versus trackIR users as they can move their head faster and more easily to keep track and find targets/threats. Just my opinion here, VR is more than worth it either way. Hotas options: The Tm Warthog is a pretty common and popular option, $500 USD ish after tax/shipping typically, used ones are around if you look and are patient too. The gimbal isn't the best, they tend to wear out in time, there are parts and fixes available here and elsewhere to deal with this sticktion issue. Saitek makes a decent HOTAS, more plastic than metal like the Warthog, quality is "okay" but nothing spectacular IMO. CH Products makes a dated but still good HOTAS, the throttle is so so nowadays, the Fighterstick IMO is excellent still, very light/gentle motion, far easier to move than the Warthog or anything else really. VKB/Virpil make great new stuff, excellent high quality gimbals, the sticks are plastic, but you can use the Warthog stick in both bases to get the best of both worlds as well. Pedals - lots of custom options out there, VKB makes the best bang/$ IMO, MFG Xwinds are great, Slaw's I'm happy with too, but they are much more $ now than when I got my sets. CH/Saitek make the usual suspects plasticy sets of pedals still too, but for a bit more $ you can get all metal VKB (virtual toe brakes only with these is the only negative). There are "starter" options from TM and others that are great, the TM entry level HOTAS is great IMO, their TWCS throttle is fantastic for the $ as well too. You can't really go wrong with any of the options out there now, they all have their quirks and pros/cons, but each and every one will work, and all have their camps and followers of users here on ED/DCS and at other sims. I have them all, and every HOTAS ever made pretty much which I've collected over the years, and I still can't decide day to day which I prefer or like the best, and switch around constantly. Based on that, IMO again, you won't go wrong with any of the options out there today.

Sigh, yet another VR headset I have to buy now. Oh well, Vives, Rifts, Odyssey's, Odyssey+s, what's another 2 or 3 headsets when you've gone through 10 already in a year. Good review.

Thanks for the responses. I found the info on ED’s site, animal is correct, since the Mirage you no longer can.

I have a large credit on Steam. Can I buy (another) copy pre order for the F14 on Steam, but use it on the nonSteam version of DCS? IE does the Steam version come with a code or whatever so it can be installed and activated on a non Steam DCSW install?

Upgraded my primary DCS system, and the Asus Maximus XI mb died 48 hours in. I had deactivated the modules (I have them all), at least the ones with that option, and reinstalled and reactivated. Question is now, this system won’t boot, and im putting in a different brand board. How can I deactivate the modules now? Or can’t I? I won’t be too upset over losing one of ten activations across all modules, I’d just rather not.

I'm going to try and grab a 5k Pimax too, as I've had the Vive/Rift/Odyssey/Odyssey+/Vive Pro as well, only have the Odysseys left as i just sold my last remaining Rift as it's been sitting on a shelf as a "backup" in case I didn't like the Odysseys, but it's lack of use tells the tale on that score for me at least. Very interested in the Pimax5k, good advice from Hangsanb IMO, until you actually get a unit on your head and use it a while, all the Youtube videos and online reviews out there won't for certain tell you personally how much you're going to like a new VR headset unit, or how well it'll perform for your particular setup.

Until the new Rift comes out, the Odyssey + especially at this price = a great option. I was an early buyer of several Vives, Rifts, and both Odysseys. Sold the Vives as I found the Rift to be superior for cockpit games (only play one room scale game, Onward, and not that much). The first Odyssey was excellent for me, with a good enough PC/GPU, the added resolution was an improvement over the Rift, but the Rift was a bit more mature and was more comfortable. Just got the Odyssey Plus last Friday, due to upgrading my primary DCS PC to a 9900k/2080ti NVlinik setup, I'm just getting the new Plus VR unit going today. So far, it fits my face a lot better, not sure if that's just a placebo effect of the new toy so far or not, I'll post in the Odyssey Plus thread later tonight about my experience with it in DCS today. But, for $300 USD - it's a steal. With my Microsoft Canada student discount (I'm doing a single distance learning course and qualified, haha), I paid $584 CAD + Tax (free shipping/returns from Microsoft Canada's online store, shipping was fast, same business week). That's $442 USD, and the regular retail is $650CAD/$492USD. So, $300 is a pretty unreal price. I'm going to upgrade my other 2 Rifts to Odyssey Plus if I can get the $300 USD price here in Canada, instantly. I agree with HansangB, I think the new Rift "may" likely be our best option for VR in DCS, but until then, the Odyssey Plus at $300 is IMO the best route to take for new VR adopters, or even Rift users that want a bit better resolution (and will accept the few minor negatives that come from ASW/stuff/etc going from the Rift to the WMR units as described in this thread already. Thanks for the thread OneSlip, saved me about $300 as I was very likely going to grab a couple more Rift+ before Black Friday. I'll wait now for the sale.

Mine will be here tomorrow or Wed hopefully, ordered it last week from the Microsoft store here in Canada.

I found 2 of my GF on ebay (one was base only new in plastic), and one on the VKB site, but diligently checking several times a day, and ordering very quickly when a GF2RevB came in stock. I suspect it was a similar fluke for FlyBoyd.

Highly debatable. The MK108 may have a lower velocity, but the MG131 13mm with 300 rnds per gun certainly doesn't, and while there are just 2 of those, they are mounted right in the nose removing the need for a lot of harmonization, and like the P38, that centralized firepower makes up for a lot. Also, the 30mm Mk108 round was lethal if it hit, all it took was usually a single hit to destroy the average allied fighter, and 2 or 3 to drop even the 4 engine bombers. There is a YT video of a Mk108 30mm being tested on a Hurricane, look what that single round does in that vid (it blows the wing pretty much right off IIRC). The 6 50s had a lot of ammunition in the P51, well, the inner 2 guns in each wing did at least, but they still had the convergence issue like all wing mounted MG and cannon, while that nose centralized firepower in the 109 didn't. edit - found the video, it was a Spitfire not a Hurricane in the test, but that single round would have been all she wrote. Great comments in this thread, always interesting. One thing I like to consider is the amount of fuel on board the 51 and 109 if they ever met up for 1v1 fights. The P51 even without drop tanks carried a massive amount of gas in both wing tanks and that tank crammed in behind the seat pretty much. I'd bet the P51 had a lot better maneuverability, climb rate, nose pointability, turn rate and radius, when those fuselage tanks were empty and the wing tanks were down to about 1/2 full each or less, sort of "on the way home" amounts of fuel left. Both planes full internal fuel, the P51 probably had nearly 2x the range that the 109k4 did. Considering that and the P51's capability, it's pretty incredible. Read a lot of Luftwaffe pilots who said they much preferred the G10 (similar engine performance to the K4) with it's 20mm instead of the 30mm gun, as it was much more reliable, and that plane pointed around much better than the K4.

Pretty much a no go for Rift/Odyssey/Vive with that system and GPU in particular IMO.