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Everything posted by Viper1970
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Yep, ich auch. Nur derzeit nicht, kommt aber wieder Flotten Sim fehlt halt irgendwie. Dangerous Waters ist schon etwas betagt, zwar trotzdem noch gut (mit Mod) aber halt schon recht alt. Hoffe da ja auf Microprose
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(Panzer fahren ist in reduzierter Form ja schon möglich) da gibt's ja noch ne echt gute andere Simulation . Aber ja wenn Combined Arms etwas mehr bieten würde, wäre das schon toll. Flotten Simulation wäre auch cool und, und, und... Halt wirklich die volle Pallette und alles in einem. Na ja, wäre ein Traum ... Vielleicht irgendwann
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Ich werd's jetzt einfach mal offen lassen und erst mal schauen dass ich DCS ans laufen krieg. Die Faceplates kann ich ja dann immer noch machen und die entsprechenden Schalter einsetzen. Wollte halt direkt an den Throttles immer die Engine bezogenen Sachen haben und anderes dann in den Konsolen. Ist einfach besser umzusetzen in dem universellen Pit, obwohl auch das nicht immer geht. Ist halt eine Kompromiss-Sache das Ganze.
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@QuiGon Also die Systeme sind ja schon auch interessant, aber nich fliegen wollen in einem Flugsimulator höre ich auch zum ersten Mal . Du bist echt der geborene WSO/RIO oder Gunner! Die meisten wollen ja immer fliegen (ich auch - irgendwann ).
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@ QuiGon Ach der Friction Lever, ja ne echt oder Aber trotzdem Danke an alle nochmal. Ich weiß ich muss selber fliegen, aber die PC's müssen erst noch teils aufgesetzt werden und auch der Strom fehlt noch im Sim-Zimmer. Leider ist da brutale Steckdosen-Not und ich muss das alles mit Steckerleisten und Kabelverlegung in Kabelschächten machen. Ist suboptimal geht aber nicht anders, ausser ich lasse hier die Wand aufreissen. Am HTPC läuft Win7, was aber sogar noch gehen würde, hab ich grad gesehen, da man auch in Steam auf Ver.2.5.6 zurückgehen kann. Leider hab ich aber keine 256GB auf dem Rechner frei oder auch nur annähernd was ich mindestens bräuchte. Die Kiste, da sie momentan als Arbeitsrechner herhalten musste, ist total voll und hat grad mal 18GB frei. Wird also nix anderes übrig bleiben als im Sim Zimmer jetzt schon komplett loszulegen. Dann kann ich auch gleich mal die G2 richtig ausprobieren und nicht nur am PC meines Stiefsohns kurz auf Funktion überprüfen, wie es bisher geschehen ist. Eigentlich war das ja schon viel eher vorgesehen, aber ich mag es nun mal nicht wenn ich Dinge noch nicht abgeschlossen habe, deshalb hab ich halt erstmal den ganzen 3D Kram noch am HTPC fertig gemacht.
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Hi Slant, vielen Dank für deine Hilfe! Na das sieht ja stark danach aus, das ich einiges hier so gar nicht umsetzen kann, schade. Ich dachte das würde größtenteils funzen. Um die Throttles herum wollte ich halt hauptsächlich Engine spezifische Sachen haben, der Rest käme dann in die Konsolen. Da muss ich dann wohl nochmals ans Zeichenbrett . Wo kann man denn erfahren was tatsächlich funktioniert oder evtl. dann halt wirklich umgesetzt wird wenn ein Modul ganz fertig ist? Ich dachte die Mudspike und Heatblur Manuals wären schon mal ein Ansatzpunkt und bin eigentlich davon ausgegangen, dass Dinge die dort erläutert werden auch wirklich funktionieren. Ich hab das Ganze ja nochmal beim AV-8B, bei der F-16C und leider auch für die F-15E, die wir ja immer noch nicht haben. Wie es da dann aussieht ist eh fraglich. Die A-10C, also der originale Warthog dürfte ja so passen wie er ist, hoffe ich. Ich denke ich muss jetzt echt erstmal alles anschließen und dann weiter schauen mit einem laufeneden DCS. Trotzdem nochmal vielen Dank für die Hilfe! P.S: Und natürlich auch Dank an Lt. Jaeger! Hatte sich überschnitten. Sieht aber schon mal besser aus nach deiner Information
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Werden in der F-14B (A-Modell ist nicht so wichtig für mich) folgende Schalter tatsächlich verwendet bzw. haben eine Funktion? Laut Mudspike oder Heatblur Manual, ja, aber ich will mich nochmal bei virtuellen Tomcat-Piloten hier versichern (fliege ja leider noch nicht) bevor ich meinen F-14 Throttle (Warthog Mod) dahingehend anpasse. Dabei ist es nicht wichtig ob das im normalen Flug oft verwendet wird, nur ob es überhaupt funktioniert. Die Schalter wären folgende in der linken Konsole beim Throttle: - Inlet Ramp Left & Right (Stowed, Auto) - Throttle Mode (Auto, Boost Manual) - Throttle Temp (Hot, Normal, Cold) - Backup Ignition Switch (On, Normal) - Right & Left Engine Mode Switch (Pri, Sec) - Thrust asymetric limiter (On, Off) - Engine Crank Left & Right (gehe davon aus der funktioniert sicher ) - Gibts beim Flaps-Schalter nur Down/Up oder lässt er sich in Zwischenstellungen fixieren? Laut F-14 Piloten ging zwar auch eine Zwischenstellungen, da ein manueller Hebel, wurde aber nie genutzt. Gibt auch einen Thread hierzu im englischen Forum: Wäre nur toll zu wissen ob es noch "manuell" mit Zwischenstufen funzt, oder nur UP/Down geht. Falls es Zwischenstufen gibt würde ich den Flaps-Schalter auf momentary, also quasi federnd umbauen. Das wären ausser dem manual Wing Sweep Override alle Funktionen die bei mir an den auf F-14 umgebauten WH Trottle an die Base kommen. Teils werde ich hierzu andere Schalter verbauen bzw. durch andere Typen ersetzen (fest rastend durch momentary / Schalter 90° gedreht eingebaut etc.) oder Buttons durch ON/OFF-Schalter. P.S: Mein derzeit verfügbarer Rechner packt DCS leider wirklich nicht, sonst würde ich das selber testen. Der große wird jetzt demnächst angeschlossen und in Betrieb genommen. Danke schon mal für eure Hilfe!
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Was mich bei allen im hochwertigen Segment stört, ist die Bauweise der elektrischen Komponenten, wie z.B. Verschleißteile, wie Schalter und Knöpfe. Im WH Throttle sind sie am PCB direkt angelötet (Base), im Virpil VFX sind es teils sogar SMD Microschalter direkt auf der Platine. Das ist für mich ein NoGo bei so teueren Geräten. Wenn das Logitech und Co macht, ok, aber nicht bei einem HOTAS über 500€. So ein Ding soll ja länger halten, dann müssen Verschleißteile aber auch vernünftig austauschbar sein und Schalter und Knöpfe sind nun mal Verschleißteile. Wenn die mit Kabeln verbunden sind, ist eine Reparatur ein Kinderspiel und kann von jedem ausgeführt werden, der einen Lötkolben halten kann. Mit fest am Board aufgelötet oder gar SMD Fuzzikram sieht es da schon anders aus. Da heißt es dann wegwerfen und neu kaufen. Bei Logitech und Co vielleicht noch vertretbar, aber nicht bei den Preisen. Das ist halt meine Meinung.
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Na ja, Videos oder Fotos sind das eine, life alles mal genau unter die Lupe nehmen das andere. Er ist schon ok, aber der Preis für das Gebotene ist schon etwas arg deftig. Ich meine halt, nimm mal nen Bohrer, mach die Nieten ab, so dass das tolle "Metallgehäuse" abfällt und schraub die doppelte Bodenplatte weg und drückt das Ding dann mal einem in die Hand (klar wäre optisch natürlich mit dem WH Throttle so nicht möglich - aber ich glaube jeder weiß worauf ich raus will). Dann würden die Bewertungen, denke ich, schon anders ausfallen. Ich glaube halt das dieses wuchtige, massive Erscheinungsbild schon auch mit zum "guten" Ruf beiträgt. Und auch vom WH Throttle hab ich schon von einigen kaputten Schaltern gehört oder wie mies ist z.B. der Slew (weiß ja jeder). Aber irgendwie ist beim WH da mehr Toleranz da, als bei anderen Mitsstreitern. Das ist halt meine Meinung. Das Logitech, Saitek und Co besser sind, sage ich ja nicht, aber auch nicht unbedingt sooo viel schlechter wie es immer dargestellt wird. Und preislich ist ja zwischen nem WH Set und nem Logitech etc. doch schon mal gut das Doppelte fällig.
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Wußte doch wer antwortet. Aber ehrlich gesagt war ich persönlich ganz schön angefressen, wenn ich da so rein schaue und bedenke dass das Teil 260 Öken kostet. Die Software (Target) finde ich persönlich super und besser als alles andere was ich bisher gesehen habe. Man kann echt alles programmieren (auch wenn viele das Ding nie nutzen ), aber die Hardware, naja . Da hätte ich mir bei dem Preis schon etwas mehr erwartet, sowohl vom Stick (Base), als auch vom Throttle. Die Ruderpedale (TPR) sind dagegen echt super, auch mechanisch. Die Schalter-Komponenten innen, mit Ausnahme der meisten Base-Switches sind auch normaler Standard. Ich hätte es auch besser gefunden die Schalter wären nicht auf der Platine fest verlötet sondern mit Steckern und Kabeln verbunden (im Reparaturfall viel einfacher und man kann notfalls auch andere Schalter gleicher Größe verbauen), wie in den Griffen und auch beim alten Cougar, den ich übrigens insgesamt für weit wertiger halte als den Warthog (mal von den Potis abgesehen).
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Um den Thread nochmal auszugraben aus gegebenem Anlass, da ich gerade einen WH Throttle geöffnet und mir alles äußerst genau angesehen habe. Ich werde nämlich teils andere Schalter verbauen, da ich die Dinger ja für verschiedene Muster umbaue und dazu muß das Ding komplett zerlegt werden. Also aus Metall ist an dem Ding mal gar nix, außer das Weißblech an den Handles, die zwei Bodenplatten und die angenieteten Platten rund um das Plastikgehäuse, die aber mit dem Gehäuse als solches nix zu tun haben. Die Nieten sind sogar so toll reingepresst, dass teils die Bohrungen im Plastikgehäuse schon fast platzen (hell verfärbt). Alles, aber auch wirklich alles, was mit der Mechanik zu tun hat ist volkommen und auschließlich nur aus Plastik. Funzt also doch mit dem wertig = Gewicht / oder wie in Jurrasic Park Teil I in der Szene mit der Nachtsichtbrille: "Ist es schwer, dann leg es wieder hin, weil dann muss es teuer sein". So denken wohl viele und es scheint zu funktionieren P.S: Einzig die Schalter der Base sind relativ wertig. Die separate Platine vorn (Autopilot) ist so passgenau, das sie schon gebogen ist (was PCB's sehr gern mögen), weil der 3-fach Schalter vom Autopilot etwas zu hoch ist (und das bei allen 4 WH die ich habe). Top Verarbeitung! Also schlechter können andere auch nicht sein.
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Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
Just doing the whole research of all the functions for the consoles and panels with the use of my old cockpit plan, many manuals from DCS and also other simulators, or even real manuals. This will take a while . Things like: What is in every kind of aircraft, what has nearly the same function but is designated differently, how does it work and how is the right way to make it useable with every aircraft, how should be the designation in my pit, what should be left for use with Track IR or VR in the virtual pit only, cause it's too special for the universal pit and ... -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
Most of the complex 3D modeling is done now! I still have to smooth out some of the HOTAS parts, but the parts themselves are done now. I will also do this or that small part like some special switch caps (already done a lot of them, but some still missing) for the consoles and the panels. The two main panels with their UFC/ICP still have to be made. At the moment only two frames exist, one for the fighters and one for the helos. The one for the fighters gets three Cougar MFD's and "universal" UFC/ICP hybrid. That's one of the challenges that still had to be done. It's not so complex in building, but the best arrangement of the functions to cover different aircraft is not easy. I will be plan this UFC while building the pit, cause there is too much you must consider, that the chances are high you miss something if you do it before. Same goes for the helo panel. At the moment I do not know if I will use my old Quickshot Masterpilots for it, which still do function very well even in Windows 10, once they are programmed, or if I will build completely new 3D printed MFD's. The Masterpilot's could also do the job, if I add some additional buttons and encoders to them which are connected to a Pokeys in the panel. The Masterpilot MFD's have 24 buttons arround the MFD and there is also enough space to intergrate some more functions in the corners. I already cutted the display area out, so that they also could be mounted on top of an TFT. They are fully programable via macros. OK, no DX-function here but keyboard emulation should also do the job very well and it would be much easier to use them and modify them a litte bit with aditional functions connected to a Pokeys, as to make complete new MFD's from scratch. To convert them to another electronic isn't that easy, I had tried this while I'm working at my predecessor pit and it's a lot of soldering and following the circuits at the PCB's. There is also a matrix or shiftregister used in the button-electronics arround the frame which reduces the needed wires. So converting them isn't simply just some soldering and doing new buttons and complete new electronics part also, does not make much difference to make completely new MFD's from scratch. It also doesn't make sense if you still have retro machines which are able to program the changeable cardriges (and I have a lot of cartdriges and also still four programming units) with the programmer unit and once they are programmed they really run without any problems from W98 up to W10. The pit will have a left and a right side console which has two of those little wooden boxes on top of them each. Each of this boxes has an area of 185x185mm what makes a total of 370x185mm for placing switches, encoders and buttons on top of them in an printed panel. The electronics (Pokeys cards) will be inside those boxes directly under the switches and the lid with the switches can be simply folded open. The overhead panel will get three of this boxes, also equipped with printed panels on top of the lid for the switches and buttons. In the overhead there will also be the throttle control for the helos at the left side, for those type of helos which have this unit in the overhead. The different throttles could be changed at the left console and will be placed before the switch-boxes. Between the seat and the left console there is the collective base mounted on which you can connect the different kind of collective-grips. If a collective is mounted, no throttle will be used or mounted at the console or the other way arround. Only exception ist the Apache, which will have it's own throttle there for the turbine control. At the right console there will be the sidestick mounted at a special printed mount, which is fixed to the inner sidewall. This way there is enough space on top of the console and in front of the switch-boxes to be able to place the throttle quadrant for the big birds there, if needed. At the center place there will be all kind of inputs connectable , like cyclics, sticks or even my yoke. If I fly an Airbus like aircraft I can also place the AXX sidestick on the left console at the throttles place, cause the quadrant is placed at the right console and there is no need for a standard throttle. There are only the controls that are used with an aircraft mounted at the same time, so no doubled controls at any time. Only exception is the overhead throttle control for the helos, which will always remain in the pit. The different front panels can be replaced in front of the panel-TFT an will only be connected via USB (even the Masterpilots which work with a DIN/PS2 to USB keyboard converter). There will be only one USB cable for the connection and the rest connected to a hub placed in the panel. If a panel isn't needed it could be placed on a wall mount in the room. That's the whole systematics of my universal pit -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
I rethought the idea and came to the conclusion that only one function should be enough to program the whole procedure for activating the manual wing sweep with a macro. Now the toogle switch has to be switched back to be able to open the guard, which does the appropriate macro. After the guard is opened you can reach the inside lever of the manual wing sweep. This axis can also be programed in any way to make the function work like it should. This works not exactly like the real thing, but can emulate it good enough. -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
The new start . The throttle arm (lever mechanics) of the WH isn't like the original - it's only a measurement-template for the length and the rotation of the grips. I will also limit the rotation travel of all my WH forward a bit, cause I personaly think that the angle at full forward is a bit too much. I would also like to have an option to set the idle position a little bit more forward so the grip isn't angled that much, but sadly the idle detent can't be adjusted. For the AB detend I will print my own inlay and make a stop limiter at fully forward. For the F-14 grips and also he F/A-18 grips in idle, the space between the grips and the back console switches is very narrow if not too narrow at all. Maybe I have to rework the grips throttle-arm-connectors a bit to make them longer and the handles higher. I already did some measurement, but things in 3D always show the truth a bit better . P.S: Just tested this a bit and I can also make a limiter for the max idle position. The levers will not go full back but this is ok for me. You just loose a bit of resistance to put them out of idle. The rest could be calibrated with TARGET, .... I hope . I really don't have the desire to rework the already fully done and smoothed grips again . Edit: Just did a test with the throttle calibration software 1.07 and the Idle button functions can easily be adjusted slightly forward, if the idle is limited before the original full back. This is arround 1.5 to 1.0cm before the slots end and this gives me enough room for the handles not to collide with the switches in forward position if they are in idle. The F-14 (although they are overall much smaller) and also the F/A-18 grips need more space in length as the A-10 grips. If that all doesn't help, I will make a small extension, which could be set between the handles and the cutted off levers (the rest without the A-10 grips). That's not a big problem at all. Really less work as to rework the handles again. -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
Yes, I collected a lot of used and broken HOTAS for many years, I was able to get my hands on. The whole new Thrustmaster stuff was bought this year, after I decided to make a new homepit project. I had to slaughter my piggy bank for this and have also sold all my RC models I had. My lovely wife did also help me to get this dream come true . The homepit was always my big dream since 1998 and sadly I never was able to finish it cause of RL. The reason for this was also very often, besides RL, my low budget. This time I wanted to make this dream really come true. It's still a lot of work, but I will never give up . -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
After some measurement I think I can make the whole sweep mechanism a bit bigger, cause the F-14 handles are very small compared to the original A-10 ones of the WH (They are also very small in RL - I used the original dimensions of the F-14D throttle grips). This could give me enough space to integrate the L/G WRN Silence button into the mechanism of the wing sweeps cover and also use the APU start switch as a kind of lock mechanism for this cover, to hold down the Silence button, which it should press. I thought about making the functions of opening the cover and pull out the sweep handle programable with those two inputs via TARGET. The plan is to bind the virtual opening of the cover to the Warthogs APU start switch (which also holds the printed cover down and locked - special hat for the switch needed) and while opening the cover the silencer button depresses and this should be binded to virtually pull out the wing sweep handle. The axis will be used (programed) to control the sweep. That's the plan, if it is feasible is another thing . -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
Just did it and it's soo super simple! I always used Cura for 2D to 3D but this is unnecessarily complex and also creates polygon-heavy 3D models you have to tweak a lot and also to reduce in poly-size to get good results for importing them to TinkerCAD. Just convert the black and white JPG (after some fixing/adjusting in the graphic software - eg. remove the lettering) to an SVG-Image (there are some free online converters out there). The black part should be the model you want to make and white is the background. After importing them to TC you can export it again to Cura and adjust it proportional to the correct size. Maybe a mirroring is also needed. Then import back to TC for the further work you want to make. Those are the results I was getting after using this technique (the grey ones in the foreground - I left the holes for the 5 LED open, but don't know if I really will use this - I only wanted to have it for the templates) -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
Hey thanks, that would be nice. I've just done the scan of the faceplates and corrected some graphical issues due to shadows while scanning. Here is the scanning result. I can extrude it to 3D, but if someone has already made good faceplates, why reinvent the wheel? t Those are the original scans: -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
Just found a quick and dirty solution for it! I had lying arround some strong "rubber-foam" from an old cardboard box inlay (I think it was from my Ender 3 Pro delivery box). I stick two small squares of it in front and at the back of the flaps-switch under the square face plate. Violla it perfectly did function the same way like a momentary switch. I will do a little printed frame for this, to prevent the rubber-foam from sliding out, making an extra flap handle glued on top of the original switch and that's it. If it will wear out over the time, I have still enough of this foam lying arround here to make a spare part. It's always good to keep parts like this and do not throw them to the trash. I have an extra drawer for things like that in my workshop. Those are the "mmhm, could it be useful at anytime? Don't know, but I will keep it"-parts. P.S: I will also do my own faceplates for the WH throttle now, using a scanner lying the plates on top of the bed an scanning them in 2D. After this I will extrude them to 3D. The one from Thingiverse are meant for lying them on top of the original ones, but mine should be a replacement for the original ones. So I must have all holes and especially the holes for the srews at the exact positions. I will maybe also add frames or special other things arround some of the switches, what I will do as a fixed part of the faceplate, printed as one single part. -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
Does anybody know of a mod for the Warthogs flaps switch, which makes it return to center? I want to have a (I)|0|(I) momentary function at the flaps switches of my Warthog throttles. I know it's not realistic with some aircraft in DCS, but I want to be able to use my throttles also with other aircraft in other simulators. Here it would be nice to have a momentary flaps switch, which could mimic more steps in both directions up and own. Never understood why Thrustmaster made it working like this. It's ok for the A-10 in DCS, but if you use the throttle for other aircraft in other sims also, what a lot of people do, you can only configure three flaps positions. Fore sure I could solder the original one out and replace it with a momentary one, but I don't want to solder at the throttles mainboards if possible. The handles are enough work to do and to change this single switch at every throttle I have, is a real bunch of work. P.S: I know you could program everthing with TARGET related to this switch and make it also do only one step for the up and down positions, then return to center and do the whole thing again, but this isn't a good solution for the handling. If the switch does not self return to center you have to fiddle arround many times between up and center or down and center to mimic a flaps mechanism which has more steps for up and down. A simple momentary function would be a lot nicer. And I think you could also do the eg. the A-10 flaps with a momentary solution much easier as other planes with a stationary switch. For sure I can make an additional lever for this in my consoles or in the panel and will also do so for other aircraft which have them in the panel, but I want to have the switch at the right position in case of VR use for those aircraft which have it besides the throttle. The function it self isn't that important, so a mometary switch is ok for me, but it's a bit weird in VR to reach to eg the panel to set the flaps if the switch in the virtual plane is beside the throttle. -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
Started with the manual wing sweep. The face plate template could be found at Thingiverse. I think I will make the wing sweep's frame a fixed part of the face plate. The friction lever was made within 5-10 minutes. It's not an 100% precise copy of the original, but good enough as a template for modelling the wing sweep. That's why I love TinkerCAD. Combine some very simple shapes and you have very quick a useable result. P.S: A little further. Not the nicest part , but there is not much room to place anything big and I also have no desire to make a whole extra part only for the wing sweep. -
Universal military aircraft homecockpit project
Viper1970 replied to Viper1970's topic in Home Cockpits
So, starting my last part for now, the manual wing sweep override for the F-14. As I put my F-14 handles on top of an original Warthog throttle (cutting off the A-10 handles and do some preparation - same goes for the F/A-18 throttle on another Warthog) I will simply use the friction lever and put a knob on top which looks a bit like the original one. I will also try to make the frame arround, but this all will be far away from the original in case of appearance, cause of the size and other restrictions. I will also make an original looking flaps lever for it, which I want to have springloaded (return to center) to be able to mimic more then three positions. Not realistic, but a workaround. I try to use the original switch for this and make a mechanical solution to do this, cause I don't want to desolder the switches of the Warthog throttle bases and change them to anything other if its possible in any way to keep the original ones. The F-14 and F/A-18 handles are more then enough work to do on my Warthog throttles. I will also change the face plates with printed ones at a later time to make the throttles more individual, but for this I have to start with my side consoles first, to see what functions will be in the consoles and what I will put individually on every throttle. A printed face plate will of course remove the backlit from the WH throttles, but I've planed to do the cockpit illumination with external LED stripes in sidewalls beside the consoles. In every wall there should be a white, a green and one UV LED stripe. The UV stripe should illuminate the white letters on the consoles and panels a bit more intensive. That's the plan, I hope it will also work The UFC and the different panels have also still to be modelled, but for this I have also to start with the all the functions for the pit first, to see what can be done in which way and where it's placed. I will use the layout-blueprint of my predecessor pit for this, because I had already done endless planning to get all under one hood some years ago. This time I will do much less functions, so it shouldn't be that complex. -
Genau!