heloguy

Thanks for the update Big Newy. Glad it's at least known, now.

Great news, thanks!

Big Newy, Thanks for the reply. I attached two tracks, one using the 'Joystick with No Springs or FFB' option, and one with the Default Trim option. I used the same stick for both tests, a Brunner CLS-E, but I turned off all hardware trim on my stick. Basically, this means it acts like a normal spring to center stick, no different than a Warthog, Gunfighter, T-50, etc. For both tracks, FFB is unchecked in the Misc options. In the track with trim set to 'Joystick with No Springs or FFB,' I take off, get the aircraft straight and level (with the pitch excursions, it takes a second or two to let it settle down), and then depress the cyclic trimmer. On the first press, you'll see from the controls indicator, that I don't move the controls, but the nose pitches down quite a bit while the trimmer is held down. I manually move the controls to arrest the rate of descent, and get back to straight and level with the trimmer released. This time, I depress the trimmer, and the nose pitches up while the trimmer is held down. I release the trimmer, get it straight and level, and try again. What seems to be happening is it alternates between pitching up, or down while the trimmer is depressed, opposite of the time before. In the track with trim set to Default, I take off, get the aircraft straight and level using the trimmer. Once straight and level, I depress the trimmer multiple times without moving the controls for various amounts of time, and get little to no excursions. Really any movement there, is probably me moving the stick a tiny bit. Nothing like you see in the track using 'Joystick with No Springs or FFB.' I didn't try it in the track, but if you look back through the thread (I know, it's a little messy as we tried to nail down exactly what the issue was), the bug seems to disappear if you turn the pitch attitude hold off when using 'Joystick with No Springs or FFB.' Of course, this isn't ideal, because now the damping, and stabilizing effects of the autopilot are not in effect. Whatever the problem is, it seems to be specific to using the 'Joystick with No Springs or FFB,' and the pitch attitude hold function. Ka-50 Trim Bug Test NoSprFFB.trk Ka-50 Trim Bug Test DefaultTrim.trk

Joystick With No Springs or FFB trim bug I thought I'd start another thread on this, as the original narrowed this bug down to a problem with this particular trim method. If you use the trim method mentioned in the title, there is an uncommanded pitch down when you depress the cyclic trimmer switch that increases the longer you hold down the trimmer switch. It can be arrested by manually applying aft cyclic, but definitely shouldn't be there in the first place. When the trimmer is released, the nose pitches up (again, uncommmanded) seemingly at the same magnitude of the uncommanded down pitch while the trimmer button was held. This seems to only happen when using the Joystick with No Springs or FFB trimming method, and while the Pitch Attitude autopilot channel is on. Original thread where we worked through narrowing down the bug is here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=252975

It’s compatible with a win 10. Can’t say I’ve used it with the new Beta. Lovcar, you have to go to Brunner’s software page and register to get a login access. Here’s The link: https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/software-download-page-2/ You need to then download CLS2 software to use with the CLS-E.

Any update is on this from the devs? I pm’ed Nineline a couple of weeks ago, and he said thanks, and it would get looked at.

Cool, thx FireCat!

FireCat/Miles, I happen to have two stations at my house, and was wondering if it would be possible to get added at the end of the list for another sensor and set of FCUs? I don't want to take away from someone who hasn't gotten theirs yet.

I bought mine in April, before they changed them. I’ve just been putting off sending it back.

I'd definitely love to help! Right now, the sim just reads the stick like a regular spring based stick, and I trim the direct drive motors using the hat switch, and buttons on the grip. The sim doesn't know it's any different, since I don't map any trim switches for any aircraft in game. This presents a small problem with the Ka-50, since the heading hold won't capture a new heading unless you press the in game 'trimmer,' but the work around is just shutting off heading hold, and using the pedals like an actual pilot. I'd like to use the heading hold function, but there seems to be a bug with the "Joystick without springs and FFB" option. See here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=252975 True FFB integration into DCS would be ideal, but the work arounds with the Brunner stick are still way better than using a spring based stick. Hopefully one day Brunner's FFB integration will not be so hard to get working. In the meantime, I'll try to hop on Discord one of these days on the PtCtrl channel and chat about things.

Any chance the solder instructions for the hardware fix could be put up here? I started a trouble ticket to send my base back, but haven't heard from them. I wouldn't mind seeing if an electronics specialist nearby could do the fix.

I noticed the same thing. The email said I should have received it yesterday, but when I actually checked the tracking (after I received nothing), the website said today. Crossing my fingers.

At it again, huh Miles? This will truly be an awesome addition to any simpit when it comes to fruition. Currently, I'm using a Brunner CLS-E, which has buggy DCS support with regards to native FFB, but the hardware functionality makes it worth it. I would suggest doing something similar, where a gui allows you to setup parameters for standard trim functions, regardless of what sim you are playing. For example, with the Brunner, I can setup a force trim release button, and 4-way force trim hat within the Brunner software, and then use that profile for any aircraft within DCS, or any sim for that matter. I have a helo profile, and a fixed wing profile. The integration you're talking about, with a different set of effects for each aircraft, would be even better, for sure.

My vote is eastern Afghanistan. I served in all the RCs, but honestly, this is the area that is the most interesting to fly in in my opinion. Mountains are a challenge, especially for helicopter pilots, near the ground, supporting operations. No offense at all to my brothers and sisters in other RCs, at whatever time in history, but just my feeling thinking about the time I've spent there. Eastern Afghanistan feels different, and is what I think about whenever I think of that country. That said, I'll be happy with whatever we get.

If there is an offset in the autopilot pitch attitude hold from where the trimmed stick position is using "Joystick with no spring and no FFB" as a trimming method, then that is a bug, I believe, which is why I posted in the first place. Although it may be hard to deduce from the videos that were posted, rest assured, the aircraft was in a stable state when the trimmer was released in all counts. I've treated it as I've flown all the different models of helicopter I've flown IRL. Hold the trim release until you reach the state you want (in this case, level, with a fixed power setting, which equates to a specific airspeed, which is unimportant in this case), then release the trim. The attitude hold should hold that attitude unless you move the controls, unless the devs say this behavior is related to actual behavior in the aircraft, which I suspect isn't true, based on the fact that the behavior changes if you choose a different trimming method. The oscillation down when the trimmer is pressed (which increases based on how long you hold the trimmer to some limit), and the oscillation up when the trimmer is released (which seems to be directly proportional to how long you hold it down) is nothing like anything I've ever seen on an actual aircraft. Thus my belief that it's a bug. In addition to the fact that the other trimming solutions work like this. If you are trying to help, you could actually perform some tests yourself, and post the results.

No curves in my case either. My setup is currently (and has been throughout this conversation) force feedback disabled, using ‘Joystick with no springs or Forcefeedback’ trimming method. Can you confirm which trimming method you have selected? Ranma, I just tried all three trimming methods, and can confirm the same results as what you posted. In addition, I tried disabling the 'Pitch Attitude' channel while using the 'Joystick without springs and FFB' method, and the pitch excursions disappeared. It seems to be an issue with that particular trimming method, and the Pitch Attitude hold function of the autopilot.

That’s the exact test I thought of today at work, suspecting it may have something to do specifically with the trim mode. Thanks for checking that out, and I’ll see if I can replicate.

Don't worry, no offense taken. I also perfectly understand your attempted explanation of the phenomenon. I just don't agree that it's correct behavior in the simulated aircraft system/flight model. Mainly the aircraft system, as the flight model acts just fine when I take the ka-50's trimmer out of the equation, and simply trim using the hardware feature of my joystick. The oscillation is easily reproduced, and is shown many times within the already posted videos. The oscillation increases in magnitude directly proportional to the amount of time the trimmer button is depressed, to a certain degree that is able to be arrested by opposite pitch in the stick. As for background, I assume you could mean engineering. Not sure if that's the case, and no, I don't have an engineering degree. I have been flying various helicopters for the last 13 years, though, admittedly not a ka-50. I have also been playing/flying the DCS Black Shark for almost the same amount of time (12 years IIRC). In a no wind gust situation, in a stable hover, it is possible to get a near zero oscillation hover. The small corrections required to maintain a stable hover without gusts are quite negligible compared to the oscillations in pitch experienced in the current Beta version of the DCS Black Shark when using the trimmer. The oscillations are not something I remember when playing the game initially, or until recently. Frankly, I'm not concerned about convincing you there's a bug. I would just like someone from ED to run their own test, and confirm whether or not it's a bug. The oscillation is there, whether you perform a small re-trim, within the 20% as you say, or if you just hold the trimmer button down for a few seconds.

I only had CLS2sim connected to DCS once (with the beta software). Now, even with the newest release version, I keep getting that same error. I never tried helos the one time I had it working, so can't confirm software trim functionality.

Not so much the amount of threads, but the area below the threads being too thick. The collar on the RS F16 Grip extends further past the threads on the nut than the old TM connector. Platypus's setscrew fix worked fine to mount it. Now the only issue I have is the Brunner base doesn't put out enough power for the RS grip (according to the LED indications I'm getting, and RS's best guess). I put in a trouble ticket to get my Brunner base fixed with a hardware solution. Not sure if it will fix the problem, but apparently they made a small change to the manufacturing process after June 2019, and I bought mine before that. From what I understand, they will fix it for free, I just have to ship them the joystick base back. Hopefully I can get it to work. The RS grip will be perfect on the Brunner base. All the buttons I could ever need, and FFB for realistic trim.

If this oscillation based on pressing and releasing the trimmer is normal for the ka-50, then it would definitely be a real pain to fly. No helo I’ve ever flown IRL has had this issue. My ffb stick doesn’t utilize the in-game ffb functions. It’s entirely hardware based. That said, Ranma isn’t using a ffb stick. I’m about 99% sure this is a bug in the module.

Thanks Platypus. I had actually contacted RS when I got the grip, thinking that I was missing a set screw since I didn't see one in there, and they informed me that it was really just for looks to match the actual F-16 grip. Based on that, I didn't think the hole was actually threaded. I'll give that a shot though. Edit: So that worked great, thanks again. Now the issue I'm having is that I may have a compatibility issue with my Brunner CLS-E. On the RS Grip, the left LED is solid, and the middle and right LEDs are blinking non-stop. No buttons register on the stick, and it doesn't seem to be connecting via Bluetooth. I'm going to ask RS what the LED indications mean, but does anyone here know?

The problem certainly does feel that way. It's seems as if the pitch attitude hold captures an attitude that's a couple of degrees off, in the up direction, from where the nose actually is when the trimmer button is released.

Can anyone recommend a good 20mm extension that’s compatible with the Realsimulator grip? My Sahaj extension doesn’t allow the grip to tighten down all the way.

No worries, thanks for the reply!