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3/9, 5MIL, help me understand


vctpil

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Hi guys,

 

I have already lots of research on the forum or internet and covers the manual, but I cannot answer to that question : what is the difference between 3/9 and 5 MIL ?

 

Or in which situation is best to use one instead of the other ?

 

I tried all CCIP mode at different speeds and altitudes, but it is definitely not clear at all.

 

Any table to describe the differences somwhere ?

 

Thanks,

Vincent

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Page 542 in the manual:

"You must maneuver the aircraft such that the solution cue passes through the pipper of the reticle if 5 MIL is selected. If 3/9 is selected, the Solution Cue simply needs to pass through the reticle."

 

The reticle is the circle in your HUD at the bottom of the PBIL and the pipper is the dot in the center of it, hence 5MIL is the more accurate method.

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...as to your second question: when you don't expect heavy AAA and thus need to maneuver use 5 mil, if you need to maneuver, have little time to plan the attack, etc. use 3/9... at least you place the ordnance near the intended target!

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DCS:A-10C flight manual page 541-543 describe CCIP CR perfectly.

 

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i just tryed out to drop MK82's AIR with following parameters:

 

10,000ft / start dive at 3nm with min recover altitude 4.000 ft, MK's high drag and what happened at 4.000ft? Just after i release the bombs my right wing broke away.

 

My speed was about 350kias. But got no prob with 5MIL CR release, the diving not so steep, i think.

 

take care

Longi

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....Just after i release the bombs my right wing broke away.....

 

What did your accelerometer have to say for itself?

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i just tryed out to drop MK82's AIR with following parameters:

 

10,000ft / start dive at 3nm with min recover altitude 4.000 ft, MK's high drag and what happened at 4.000ft? Just after i release the bombs my right wing broke away.

 

My speed was about 350kias. But got no prob with 5MIL CR release, the diving not so steep, i think.

 

take care

Longi

 

I believe iut was too much speed, too much g. You know, A-10's operate usually around 250 kts. When diving, if not using cannon, always deploy the air brakes. They help you to have a little more time to maneuver in position to hit the target.

 

And regarding the Mk-82's, use them in low drag. I and many others around the forum have had success with Mk-82's released up to 15,000 ft, using the wind compensation feature of the CDU. The best way to employ them, that I find, is in the CCRP mode. They can be deadly accurate. The only thing they don't destroy are tanks, because these you have to hit right on top.

 

Also, high drag Mk-82s are best used in very low (less than 1,000 ft) in level or slightly diving attacks. And you must be very fast to use them, which , in the case of A-10 is not that much. I don't know if they are not correctly modeled in this game, but the case is that high drag Mk-82's tend to fall anywhere but on target. Using them in a dive will help accuracy, but you might as well change it to low drag to get better results.

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........... always deploy the air brakes. They help you to have a little more time to maneuver in position to hit the target....

 

Tut, tut, tut,,

 

If Eddie hears about it you will be wrapped on the knuckles. I've already been scolded by him, for deploying brakes in my MK82 Vid..... :cry:

 

(won't stop me from using it though....:smilewink: )


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You know, A-10's operate usually around 250 kts. When diving, if not using cannon, always deploy the air brakes. They help you to have a little more time to maneuver in position to hit the target.

 

A-10s don't 'normally operate around 250 knots'. You might cruise around that speed, but combat is not a cruise phase of flight. Dive weapon deliveries should be between 300-400 knots.

 

And yeah, flying slow might give you more time for target tracking if you try and press a poorly planned/executed attack, but it also gives the enemy more time to track and engage you and leaves you with less energy (and therefore a lower turn/roll rate) with which to extend from the target and/or defeat any SAM/AAA.

 

As for too much G, yeah almost certainly the case. Although its worth noting that too much G and speed are not directly related. You should be aiming for around 4g in the pull out/turn away from a weapon delivery, but the most important thing is to ensure you pull smoothly on the stick otherwise you are at risk of stalling the wing and/or over g-ing the aircraft.

 

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The DCS manual contains a small but important error: in 3/9 mode the bombs will come off as the pipper passes the 3/9 line of the Solution Cue regardless of lateral deviation. In other words, the Solution Cue does NOT have to pass through the reticle as stated in the manual.

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Tut, tut, tut,,

 

If Eddie hears about it you will be wrapped on the knuckles. I've already been scolded by him, for deploying brakes in my MK82 Vid..... :cry:

 

(won't stop me from using it though....:smilewink: )

 

Fish,

 

Thanks for the head-up, but it was too late...

 

 

A-10s don't 'normally operate around 250 knots'. You might cruise around that speed, but combat is not a cruise phase of flight. Dive weapon deliveries should be between 300-400 knots.

 

And yeah, flying slow might give you more time for target tracking if you try and press a poorly planned/executed attack, but it also gives the enemy more time to track and engage you and leaves you with less energy (and therefore a lower turn/roll rate) with which to extend from the target and/or defeat any SAM/AAA.

 

As for too much G, yeah almost certainly the case. Although its worth noting that too much G and speed are not directly related. You should be aiming for around 4g in the pull out/turn away from a weapon delivery, but the most important thing is to ensure you pull smoothly on the stick otherwise you are at risk of stalling the wing and/or over g-ing the aircraft.

 

Understood. I stand corrected. :doh:

 

Always learning...:smartass:

This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

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Sorry, but it is not clear at all.

 

I'm going to try the same question in an other way.

 

What I'm doing in 3/9 or 5 mil, I can also do it in CCIP normaml mode (unless TOSS attack).

 

What are the particular situations we have to use the 3/9 and/or the 5 mil mode because the normal mode is not working (or not so efficient) ?

 

Thanks.

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All three modes are CCIP. ' Normal' mode is CCIP while 3/9 and 5MIL are CCIP-CR (consent to release). Think of CCIP as the Shotgun approach (in the ballpark), CCIP-CR 3/9 as the assault rifle (more accurate) and CCIP-CR 5mil as the sniper rifle (most accurate).

 

All three are CCIP - which method you employ will depend on the circumstances of the engagement.

 

Manual pgs 541-543 explains it well. Have you read it?

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Yes, I read the manual.

 

That is my question : what are those circumstances of engagement ?

 

I can use the CCIP normal mode for, like you said, shotgun approach, assault rifle and or sniper rifle.

 

I can understand the purpose of the CR mode.

 

If I need precision, I will prefer the CCRP mode, but it is not the subject of the thread.

 

Thanks.

 

PS : I have just saw a video of Matt, and it's better to use CCRP for TOSS attack.


Edited by vctpil

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PS : I have just saw a video of Matt, and it's better to use CCRP for TOSS attack.

 

No.

 

CCIP-CR is utilized for wings-level or toss bombing. As per the manual,

 

The advantage of using CR is that you may designate a target point and then pull-up and release the bomb in a non-diving attack.

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A lot of it is about the speed of the process. CCIP, in general, is faster to set up and execute than CCRP, and so is better suited to dynamic battlefield situations such as targets of opportunity. CCIP fluency is also valuable when you are flying without the benefit of a targeting pod or guided/precision munitions.

 

Or at least, that's how I tend to look at it. I'm sure that others will be able to provide you with more definitive answers.

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CCIP CR allows for shallower dive angles when carrying out a delivery, that's it. If your dive angle is such that you have a solid PBIL (the point of impact is within the HUD FOV) then CR mode is irrelevant and not used. CCIP CR only comes into play it situations where the point of impact is below the HUD FOV therefore giving you a dashed PBIL.

 

Without CCIP CR enabled a dashed PBIL would preclude weapon release, CCIP CR simply allows you to use the CCIP Pipper to designate the point you want the weapons to impact (by pressing and holding the pickle button) when the CCIP Pipper (held at the bottom of the HUD when CCIP CR is in use) is over the desired point of aim. Essentially the system switches from CCIP to CCRP when a point is designated.

 

A straight CCIP delivery is always preferable when practical as it's the most accurate method of delivering unguided munitions (there is no aiming error, the bombs will hit where the IFFCC says they will).

 

Next in line is CCIP 5 mil. In CCIP 5 mil the IFFCC will allow weapon release with up to 5 Mils of aiming error from the designated target.

 

CCIP CR 3/9 is potentially the least accurate of the CCIP deliveries as the IFFCC will allow weapon release even if the aircraft attitude/heading is such that the weapons will miss the designated target point by a large distance.

 

CCRP is the least accurate method of delivering dumb munitions as it combines the error margins of CCIP CR 5 Mil & 3/9 (depending on the weapon released), greater wind drift (due to the longer weapon Time of Flight caused by a level or loft delivery) and a higher potential for aiming error and inaccurate target designation.

 

NB: Accurate as used above is a relative term, all the above methods can put weapons right on target when used correctly and with the proper planning.

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If you are referring to GPS/INS/Laser munitions then yes, CCRP is more accurate as weapons guide to target. Dumb bomb delivery via CCRP is however not for obvious reasons (wind, compounded error factor due to altitude etc etc).

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If you are referring to GPS/INS/Laser munitions then yes, CCRP is more accurate as weapons guide to target. Dumb bomb delivery via CCRP is however not for obvious reasons (wind, compounded error factor due to altitude etc etc).

 

not to mention the fact that the pbil maybe a few feet off and you're not looking directly at target.

 

I made a vid for CCIP, and its my preferred way with Mk-82 slick.

 

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