LukeFF Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 i read that some Pilots switched back to the 20mm because of her better muzzle velocity, accuracy, ammo mount, rof and recoil. You read that wrong. The production K-4 never, ever was fitted with a 20 mm nose cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavagai Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Sources are always a good thing. Armament of the K-4 consisted of an engine mounted MK 108 cannon, which by now as installed on the production line, as well as two MG 131 machine-guns above the engine. There were aircraft, however, which were delivered with an MG 151/20 engine-mounted cannon. Messerschmitt Bf 109 F,G & K Series by Prien and Rodeike Page 174 P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Sources are always a good thing. Original documentation showing WerkNummer blocks of K-4 aircraft fitted with the 20 mm cannon are even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Original documentation showing WerkNummer blocks of K-4 aircraft fitted with the 20 mm cannon are even better. Sounds interesting, I was somewhat sceptical about these 2cm K-4s, even from the venerable dr. Prien. If that is true, I would be surprised if there would be more than a handful. While technically it must have possible, I have seen no trace of it in original documentation. Even the K-2 sheets I have show MK 108. So any chance of seeing these Werknummer blocks? http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavagai Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 That is Luke's point; he hasn't seen a primary source document that proves it to be so. For my part, when a reputable Phd says it is so I'll take his word for it until I see some compelling evidence to the contrary. We cannot evaluate such a text with the mindset that the authors were cynically trying to influence the outcome of a computer game.:ermm: 1 P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altflieger Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Bf109 Neubau 1/44 to 3/45 thread here: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2462 (Discussion from 2005!) Concerns RLM aircraft production January 1944 - March 1945 based on C-Amts Monatsmeldungen. (Planned vs Actual Production) To see a listing, see here: http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/RLM/RLM44.html This table is only for first 3 months 1944, oddly K4 is listed but shows none built over this period. It's based on microfilms from The National Archives and Records Administration, Washington. T-177, reel no. 42. So if anyone wants to do some serious digging, get to it! I do not know if this has now been digitised and is available online, or if it contains more detailed infomation than that given. If it has been digitised I couldn't find a link for it. From the TOCH thread, regarding K4's produced at Erla, "The first mention of Erla K-4 production block 570000 to 5701000 that I am aware of is Prien and Rodeike’s book. They indicate they were only able to confirm one specific W.Nr., 570362, in that block with BAL acceptance on Feb 16,1945. Because of the “staggered” sequencing of RLM W.Nrs. late in the war, this could be the first K-4 accepted in that block (or not). More documentation is needed, knowing the Stammkennzeichen is helpful, as these generally follow in sequence." (Post#31) Jochen Prien replied (post#43) on 14th October 2005, "When we put together the Bf 109 F - K some 12 or more years ago we had only fragments of the C-Amts Listen at our disposal which helped a great deal but also left some questions unanswered. With all the new material that has been unearthed since it would be high time for a new - third - edition if we only had time for it. Right now we are fully booked out with work on the JFV series. The need for a revamping the F - K study is great as - at least in my opinion - nothing has been published since that would mark a real step ahead in the field of '109 research or could even be considered as the definitive work. Not to be misunderstood - we consider our small volume as just what it is labelled - an illustrated study. But as such - and even more so in an updated version - it could hold ist own against anything that has been published since." In a post by "Vanir" on (from memory!) on the SAS IL2 modding forums, he talked about Erla building "well made, 'special' K4's'. I'll try and find the link again. He mentioned photgraphic evidence but didn't post any, lol! Erla were building during the last months of the war, G10's, G6/G14 fuselages + G6 wings and undercarridge or K4 wings/wheels. These were somewhat different to those produced at MTT Regensburg or WNR having a more streamlined nose fitted from the cancelled H2/K2 heavy fighter project. (What other "improvements" transferred from that project to Erla G10's are unknown). They were also fitted as G10 spec with the 20mm gun and were officially designated Lightweight fighters, aka "specials". It's entirely plausible that Erla's K4 batch were in effect G10's built with K4 fuselages + wings/wheels, and thus fitted with the 20mm but numbers produced are unknown, but almost certainly more than W.Nr., 570362. It may be possible to establish if this plane was armed with the 20mm from records? Another post by Vanir from 2009 here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=157797&p=1378636 where without references makes some interesting points concerning G10's/K4's. Final para re ASM engines, is notable. Most of the information from books about late 109's that we have derives from authors primarily concerned with camoflage colour schemes and physical details for modellers and contain little information regarding performance or technology use (MW50 etc,) other than as asides. We should also note that almost all of these books are OLD relatively speaking, little has been added to the known pool of knowledge since about 1995 AFAIK, and Prien's book based on research 12 years prior to publication, as he states. So to sum up, to insist something is true/not true about late 109's is somewhat problematic. There is still so much unknown, particuarly regarding the ERLA Leipzig factory's output late war. Gavagai still friends, :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Sounds interesting, I was somewhat sceptical about these 2cm K-4s, even from the venerable dr. Prien. If that is true, I would be surprised if there would be more than a handful. While technically it must have possible, I have seen no trace of it in original documentation. Even the K-2 sheets I have show MK 108. So any chance of seeing these Werknummer blocks? I apologize if my post above wasn't clear: I wasn't trying to imply I have those Werknummer blocks, but rather that the source information Prien used to make statement about 20mm-armed K-4s is what's really needed. As Altflieger's post above shows, trying to compile certain information about late-model 109s can be problematic, and much of what is out there right now does focus instead on camouflage and markings. I had a look in my copy of JaPo's book on the K-4 (a great resource, BTW) to see if they had anything to say about the matter, but I couldn't find anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I apologize if my post above wasn't clear: I wasn't trying to imply I have those Werknummer blocks, but rather that the source information Prien used to make statement about 20mm-armed K-4s is what's really needed. As Altflieger's post above shows, trying to compile certain information about late-model 109s can be problematic, and much of what is out there right now does focus instead on camouflage and markings. I had a look in my copy of JaPo's book on the K-4 (a great resource, BTW) to see if they had anything to say about the matter, but I couldn't find anything. Page 79 JaPo's other book on the K series: Messerschmitt's employees knew well about the flaws of Rheinmettal-Borsig cannons, which might even have delayed the whole production of Bf 109Ks. That's why electrical wiring was prepared for alternative installation of an earlier Mauser MG 151/20, too. This meant a few more cables on the one hand (the question is whether they were installed during production at all), but on the other hand the production was not menaced with delayed deliveries from the overburdened Rheinmetall-Borsig company. Preparing the wiring to install the MG 151/20 would have been sensible, especially considering that it was a well tried installation on Bf 109s. Presumably, wiring diagrams for the K-4 (Teil 9B: Elektrisches Bordnetz) would show whether or not the extra wiring was actually installed. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maler Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Hi guys. If anyone has a book JaPo "Messerschmitt Bf 109K camouflage & markings pdf version. If possible, please share it with me. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2198381#post2198381 "Screw you guys, i'm going home." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9.JG27 DavidRed Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) i wonder when the K will get released... on the ed site, the english version, its saying that it will be released in november.on the ed site, the german version, its saying that it will be released at the end of november... and the september newsletter is saying "we plan to make the Open Beta available in the October – November time frame". this indicates a possible 2month spread from now until the end of november,... any possibilty to have this narrowed down by some official?even if they cant give us an exact release date yet, it would be nice to know whether october would still be possible, or if they already know that it will be end of november.... Edited October 6, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 i wonder when the K will get released... on the ed site, the english version, its saying that it will be released in november.on the ed site, the german version, its saying that it will be released at the end of november... and the september newsletter is saying "we plan to make the Open Beta available in the October – November time frame". this indicates a possible 2month spread from now until the end of november,... any possibilty to have this narrowed down by some official?even if they cant give us an exact release date yet, it would be nice to know whether october would still be possible, or if they already know that it will be end of november.... Ah David, I know how you feel, and just to think I'll be away from my sim PC for a whole week during the end of November - just hope it's not when the K4 get's released :-) Looking forward to play with it at DOW!!!! Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Looking for help with K technical markings: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2199862 My skins/liveries for Fw 190 D-9 and Bf 109 K-4: My blog or Forums. Open for requests as well. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted October 6, 2014 ED Team Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) Has somebody ever seen moments of inertia reports about any plane from -109 family? Edited October 6, 2014 by Yo-Yo Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafer Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Not me, but I suppose we'll find out in November. :D ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Not me, but I suppose we'll find out in November. :D Inertia in a Fw109 K4 Yo-Yo??? That's the least I could expect from it :-) Nope, don't have it, but will try a few contacts and report back if I find anything worth mentioning. Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted October 6, 2014 Author ED Team Share Posted October 6, 2014 But please ask for a Me 109K-4 though, not the Fw 109K-4 :P Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 But please ask for a Me 109K-4 though, not the Fw 109K-4 :P Oops! Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golani79 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 So looking forward to the Kurfürst :) 1 >> DCS liveries by golani79 << Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowsniper Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 projecting to do those skins as soon aas a dds template is grabable: :music_whistling::megalol: i7-10700KF CPU 3.80GHz - 32 GO Ram - - nVidia RTX 2070 - SSD Samsung EVO with LG TV screen 40" in 3840x2150 - cockpit scale 1:1 - MS FFB2 Joystick - COUGAR F16 throttle - Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friedrich-4B Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Photos of three of the above K-4s from the JaPo book on the K series: Yellow 8 "Mary" of 11./JG 3: (is that Mary in the cockpit and sitting on the ground between two pilots?) White 16 ex-9./JG 3: White 1 of 9./JG 77: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]************************************* Fortunately, Mk IX is slightly stable, anyway, the required stick travel is not high... but nothing extraordinary. Very pleasant to fly, very controllable, predictable and steady. We never refuse to correct something that was found outside ED if it is really proven...But we never will follow some "experts" who think that only they are the greatest aerodynamic guru with a secret knowledge. :smartass: WWII AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messermeister Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Has somebody ever seen moments of inertia reports about any plane from -109 family? From Mtt AG projects office: I don't recall seeing any other kind of report (detailed or not) about calculating the moments of inertia of any Bf 109 variant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted October 7, 2014 ED Team Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) It's great! Thank you very much! Are another pages available? By the way, I already have calculated MOIs using detailed Soviet weight report. THe results are quite good: knowing nothing about the weight distribution for the wing it was possible to get the differencies 16%, 3% and 5% for Jx, Jy and Jz respectively. And even 16% is nothing regarding the visible handling... Edited October 7, 2014 by Yo-Yo Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentGun Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 The time is ticking just a matter of time now :) Link to my Imgur screenshots and motto http://imgur.com/a/Gt7dF One day in DCS... Vipers will fly along side Tomcats... Bugs with Superbugs, Tiffy's with Tornado's, Fulcrums with Flankers and Mirage with Rafales... :)The Future of DCS is a bright one:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leafer Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 That is just super, Yo-Yo! psst...anyone knows what he's talking about? Google only knows Jz is a rapper. ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin-27 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 That is just super, Yo-Yo! psst...anyone knows what he's talking about? Google only knows Jz is a rapper. ^too funny. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] [Dogs of War] WWII COMBAT SERVER | P-51D - FW190-D9 - Me109-K4 Visit Our Website & Forum to Get More Info & Team Speak Access Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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