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Can a Gazelle really do this?


Holbeach

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Can a Gazelle really do this? I doubt it. There is no air resistance to the tail in the spins and no neg G damage from the roll/loop and control and recovery is easy from both states.

 

 

 

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Yep, and you can do that without any cyclic input, the helicopter will fly level no matter what you do with pedals.

 

Ah well, the usual business with DCS beta products. Even if the devs improved it, we're stuck waiting at least another week for patch from ED.

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I did that in the current version with AP and Gyro turned off.

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Thats the SAS system working. It will be toned down a bit after feedback from the real pilots.

 

does not take a real pilot to see that there is something really wrong with the FM/physics/coding in the two videos posted above.

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The yaw effect you show there is indeed very possible with a fenestron tail. if you push full left or full right you can spin like a rollercoaster.

The point is, we do have real pilots in our dedicated testerteam. starting from private pilot licenses through military pilots, AB212, AH64D, ch53, bo105, UH60 and the frensh guys flying the gazelle, plus a few british gazelle pilots. Just wanted to name a few models the guys fly in real to give you a little insight, that we made our homework, plus new pilots are awaited during this year that fly ah1w or ch47f, depends on thier timescale.

 

So please, just because you can do a forward flip in the sim, it does not mean it is not possible in real life. When you watch the red bull demo of the bo105 very closely you see that he nearly makes a forward flip in a few occasions.

the flightphysics of a helicoper stay the same in big or small.

just to rremind, rc helicopter have the same physical laws applied and the same tech behind it and they can do forward flips too.

 

so please take into account that in real, nobody will ever do what most people try to do in the sim, but it can or is still correct in the fm and could be done in real.

 

The changes done on the fm have the background of real gazelle pilot inputs. One of them has 1500 real flighthours on the gazelle, but he never attampted a forward flip EVER, although it would be physically possible cause before the rotor would break in flight, everything else would break, including the pilot.

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You can even fly with 180kph backwars, rotate and fly forwards without losing much speed. :D

 

Please show me a video about that (a track would be great too), I'd need it to fix if it really happens in game

I can only turn about 15° left or right above 90km/h with full pedal in straight flight and then the helicopter comes back to the forward flight, the max angle will decrease with speed.

What you're saying is a bit confusing me if you're above 90km/h.

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The yaw effect you show there is indeed very possible with a fenestron tail. if you push full left or full right you can spin like a rollercoaster.

The point is, we do have real pilots in our dedicated testerteam. starting from private pilot licenses through military pilots, AB212, AH64D, ch53, bo105, UH60 and the frensh guys flying the gazelle, plus a few british gazelle pilots. Just wanted to name a few models the guys fly in real to give you a little insight, that we made our homework, plus new pilots are awaited during this year that fly ah1w or ch47f, depends on thier timescale.

 

So please, just because you can do a forward flip in the sim, it does not mean it is not possible in real life. When you watch the red bull demo of the bo105 very closely you see that he nearly makes a forward flip in a few occasions.

the flightphysics of a helicoper stay the same in big or small.

just to rremind, rc helicopter have the same physical laws applied and the same tech behind it and they can do forward flips too.

 

so please take into account that in real, nobody will ever do what most people try to do in the sim, but it can or is still correct in the fm and could be done in real.

 

The changes done on the fm have the background of real gazelle pilot inputs. One of them has 1500 real flighthours on the gazelle, but he never attampted a forward flip EVER, although it would be physically possible cause before the rotor would break in flight, everything else would break, including the pilot.

 

I hope you will make efforts to back the FM and the rest of your module with engineering rather than anecdotes and almost beer party impressions.

 

You simply can't do with a several tons helicopter what you can do with an RC helicopter. Newton would turn in his grave... together with the occupants of the real heli most probably.

 

For me its scary to see you defend in this way such blatant bug(s).

 

Does real gazelle do these too? (go to 1:00 and beyond)

 

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I hope you will make efforts to back the FM and the rest of your module with engineering rather than anecdotes and almost beer party impressions.

 

You simply can't do with a several tons helicopter what you can do with an RC helicopter. Newton would turn in his grave... together with the occupants of the real heli most probably.

 

For me its scary to see you defend in this way such blatant bug(s).

 

Does real gazelle do these too? (go to 1:00 and beyond)

 

 

Hm, you call real pilot input anecdotes or beer party impressions, judge the FM by RC helicopter experience and call a 975kg helicopter several tons heavy.... Even Loopings with helos were impossible some decades ago but you should know better...

BTW you should also know that this was a special lighweight RC version with a modified rotorhead in your video. Try to find a video with replica RC helos (Bo-105 or Gazelle) doing the same in your opinion impossible maneuvers.

 

Newton would have no problems with it since it is only a question of design, weight and power. Because you don't do it in RL doesn't mean it isn't possible. But you seem to have your own opinion on that.

I own only a private pilot license but I would know what to give on your opinion if I was flying this bird professionally :music_whistling:


Edited by FSKRipper

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I am a commercial helicopter pilot with a master in aeronautical engineering. Like it was said, there are a few things that needs adjusting and fix in FM. Those are being taken care off, as developers have announced.

It is true. You can do all sort of things to a helicopter. The difference is if you only do that thing once or if you are able to do it again. Of course you can do what RC helicopter do. The problem in helicopters with a greater mass is the forces involved in doing that maneuvers. BO105 from Red Bull can do it, under special permission, and when the cicles for those maneuvers end, the airframe is wreck.

Heck, give a 900 kg helicopter some stiff blades, a really powerful engine and negative pitch angle, and hire a really crazy pilot without love for is life and after some crashes he'll hover inverted also.

Like someone said, small or big conventional helicopter, the applied physics are the same, what is different are the magnitude of those physics and material used to overcome those magnitudes.

 

Give some credit to the developers who made a huge effort to bring you such a deep simulation into your desktop. A few year ago, it wasn't possible to have such a simulation in a desktop PC.

 

Also, I was one of the firsts to criticise the behaviour of the flight model. And as soon as developers said they were working on it I completely shut up and wait for the next update, with the certainty that if there is something out of place or that feels odd, I'll be the first to ask again and criticise.

 

By the way, I fly the AS365N1 (has fenestrom) and the AS350 B2 and B3. Before I've flown R22 and R44.

 

And be sure that develpers are working with real world helicopter pilots.

 

 

Regards.

 

And, thank you. I surely like to drink some beers and to tell some annedotes.

 

Sent from Tapatalk via Samsung Alpha.


Edited by NineLine
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Can a Gazelle really do this? I doubt it. There is no air resistance to the tail in the spins and no neg G damage from the roll/loop and control and recovery is easy from both states.

 

 

 

..

As far as the yaw movements goes, probably if the rotation is too high, you could run out of anti torque authority (LTE), also the pilots would lose control after a while, you cannot maintain that rotation speed forever without the pilots suffer consequences.

In the dive, probably yes, but if favorable conditions are meet you would end with a cut tail version of the Gazelle. Also if well succeed, the helicopter would be a total wreck. It is not meant to have those kind of stresses.


Edited by Focha

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Yeah the FM isn't correct/finished.

 

As posted here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=166219 There are some changes coming with the next DCS update, hopefully fixing these FM oddities.

 

Here's my video on Fenestron yawing

 

That is totally possible.

 

I recall a maintenance fly test I've made to a AS365N1 that had the AFCS system broken (yaw command) and we had to test it by letting the anti torque pedals alone, and I recall I was around 80 to 100 knots and the AFCS just responded with almost full right pedal and it ended up like in your movie.

 

Plus a lot of noise from the airflow and new pants!!!

 

The only difference being the attitude of the aircraft, it wanted to roll left and nose down, I think, front what I recall.

 

Cheers.

 

Edit: Although the full rotation is almost impossible to do with forward velocity. The vertical fin is too big and creates a lot of yaw. You would pass the power limits (torque) in the Dauphin. Cheers.


Edited by Focha
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I hope you will make efforts to back the FM and the rest of your module with engineering rather than anecdotes and almost beer party impressions.

 

You simply can't do with a several tons helicopter what you can do with an RC helicopter. Newton would turn in his grave... together with the occupants of the real heli most probably.

 

For me its scary to see you defend in this way such blatant bug(s).

 

Does real gazelle do these too? (go to 1:00 and beyond)

 

 

You should watch your way of speaking, you don't seem to know what you're talking about, and yelling at developers who work 7 days a week for your little pleasure won't bring you respect from anyone here.

 

Nicolas

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Zaelu, the first paragraph of your post is frankly insulting and indicative of a lot of the problems that occur on these boards. The devs have never said the FM is perfect by any stretch and have expressed on multiple occasions that tweaks will continue, but even the current flight model is very impressive and representative of the real aircraft when flown within a realistic envelope. I too am a rotary wing and fixed wing real world pilot, and my impressions of the Gazelle from the start has been very positive. Before you critique the flight model for not being realistic when you try to do X, ask yourself what sane pilot who even remotely valued his life would even attempt X!!! It isn't even realistic to attempt these maneuvers, so give the devs time to get around to adding the correct behavior in frankly rediculous ragimes of flight...

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You should watch your way of speaking, you don't seem to know what you're talking about, and yelling at developers who work 7 days a week for your little pleasure won't bring you respect from anyone here.

 

Nicolas

 

Dimitrov, how I speak was talked about on these forums a while ago. Yes, it is possible that a come "rude" sometimes, yes when I came to France I discovered that the kindness romanians believe they have (I guess all people think they are sort of good/kind) is just a myth... compared with the french and english people I work with. This... is anecdotal fact :).

 

However. In my experience on these forums... when serious bugs or problems are discovered and the developers are treating the reports easily... those problems linger more than necessary. I think all devs did that in the past more or less but is something to avoid.

 

When I saw those movies that show the Gazelle doing things like a small drone and one dev said:

 

"Thats the SAS system working." -meaning... Oh... is as it should be or almost there.

 

and the other:

 

"just to remind, rc helicopter have the same physical laws applied and the same tech behind it and they can do forward flips too."

 

That is not encouraging for me. If they said that and people say: "Oh... how nice you cared to respond, thank you... you are awesome"... you know... the normal kindness from the west... 3 years later you might end up with same problems unsolved.

 

I am sorry if I sound harsh, as I said before I have no intention to offend but as a developer that needs feed back a bit more of thick skin is a good thing... sometimes bugs are reported like ironies or have the annoyance tone in them. For example I am interested in this module but I want it after the "game stopping" bugs are eliminated. Having the helicopter flying like a drone is a game stopping bug for me and annoying.

 

Also about the arguments. Ramsay said that my first part of the previous post was insulting. No it is not. And I had no intention to insult but it does point that some arguments are not acceptable from a logical perspective... in my opinion.

 

Here is what I want to say:

You know there is a module here that came out after being tested by 6 real pilots? Finally that FM module came out and... Flaps have no effect. ...Mind stops.

 

This appeal to authority does convince many, for me is a red flag. When someone pulls his diploma or brings a friend that knows to a debate where numbers are sufficient... is almost a clear sign he is dodging. Now... sometimes authority is the way to go... when you have a leader and things need to be done in a timely fashion... Authority is good. Good or bad a decision is better taken than postponed indefinitely, that's why this world works with not so smart politicians at command. But when there is no time pressure authority brings nothing and just cocks people in being hurt/offended.

 

So. Please devs don't take bugs easily. And when someone shows the Gazelle spinning like Battlefield choppers is better to say: "what is wrong will be corrected" rather than: "looks about right". It just gives people the good impression things will be fixed.

 

Thank you.


Edited by zaelu
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Please show me a video about that (a track would be great too), I'd need it to fix if it really happens in game

I can only turn about 15° left or right above 90km/h with full pedal in straight flight and then the helicopter comes back to the forward flight, the max angle will decrease with speed.

What you're saying is a bit confusing me if you're above 90km/h.

I did a little test a couple minutes ago in the up to date version of DCS 1.5.3(EDIT: open beta!).

I accelerated to ~180pm/h forward flight and applied full left and right rudder. The Gazelle moved to some degrees to the left and turned back to a forward fly and the same for the right rudder. Then i was slowing down and accelerated to ~180m/h backwards flight and applied full left rudder and the Gazelle turned the nose around into a forward flight(after several swaying left and right). Down below is the attached track file. If you put this a little further and accelerate backwards to 190 -200km/h the Gazelle will turn by it's own to a forward flight.

 

I did something similar with the MI-8 a little time ago and if you keep accelerating the MI-8 backwards flying it starts to turn to a forward flight by it's own too. But if i remember correctly it doesn't do a full 180° turn but stops before and "lies down on the side". It was also harder to keep her on "track" in a stable backwards flight. Sorry for my bad english, i can't explain it better.


Edited by unknown

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A very strange ability to make roll and loop for an hélicopter?

Do you know what means "load sharing factor"?

Even a plane needs some speed to do that.

Is the negative completly forgot from the FM or the pilots who are adviser for this aircraft were drunk?

And designers seem kidding or at least make a fool of us when they are saying:

"just because you can do a forward flip in the sim, it does not mean it is not possible in real life".

That is simply stupid.

This module of DCS World is dumbass and look like a RC helicopter the more,but certainly not the real Gazelle.

Maybe a fix could be done,if the designers stop to think the players are ignorants.

see you next


Edited by cromhunt
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I hope you will make efforts to back the FM and the rest of your module with engineering rather than anecdotes and almost beer party impressions.

 

You simply can't do with a several tons helicopter what you can do with an RC helicopter. Newton would turn in his grave... together with the occupants of the real heli most probably.

 

For me its scary to see you defend in this way such blatant bug(s).

 

Does real gazelle do these too? (go to 1:00 and beyond)

 

 

I hope you will make the effort to know what you're talking about with the rest of your drivel on these boards rather than taking an excerpt of a post to shit on it and disregard actual content.

 

It's scary to me a simple sentence like the rc example can be interpreted as "we model our bird like it was a rc chopper". That's not what was said, but that's how you chose it to go shitting on pple.

 

Since you seem to also like grossly generalizing on people, namely developpers, with your awesome knowledge, you look like these guys I see at work who talk very loud and force their opinion on everybody else being over confident in their own prowess. The louder you speak, the less you know, it seems. I urge everyone @work to avoid following their advice, so I'll kindly ask Polychop to simply keep correcting their bird like they are currently doing. Damned, I've been polite!

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A very strange ability to make roll and loop for an hélicopter?

Even a plane need some speed to do that.

Is the negative completly forgot from the FM or the pilots who are adviser for this aircraft were drunk?

And designers seem kidding or at least make a fool of us when they are saying:

"just because you can do a forward flip in the sim, it does not mean it is not possible in real life".

That is simply stupid.

This module of DCS World is dumbass and look like a RC helicopter the more,but certainly not the real Gazelle.

Maybe a fix could be done,if the designers stop to think the players are ignorants.

see you next

 

Stop doing things in the sim that nobody does IRL and shout "it's unrealistic!". We don't know the IRL behavior, actually, since nobody tried it IRL...

 

You may very well hit an unwanted behavior, but that's because you are going way past the normal flight parameters. Labelling a whole module "dumbass" because something looks strange when using it 200% outside of it's normal enveloppe is.... weird, to keep it civil (unlike you).

If you expect the sim to model perfectly all behaviors of all aircrafts in every possible (even unknown & untested) scenarios, you're over estimating the engine.

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A very strange ability to make roll and loop for an hélicopter?

Do you know what means "load sharing factor"?

Even a plane need some speed to do that.

Is the negative completly forgot from the FM or the pilots who are adviser for this aircraft were drunk?

And designers seem kidding or at least make a fool of us when they are saying:

"just because you can do a forward flip in the sim, it does not mean it is not possible in real life".

That is simply stupid.

This module of DCS World is dumbass and look like a RC helicopter the more,but certainly not the real Gazelle.

Maybe a fix could be done,if the designers stop to think the players are ignorants.

see you next

 

You ever tinkered with physics or specifically aerodynamics? Probably not...

 

Like Focha already said you can do a lot with a helicopter, even maneuvers you think they are impossible. If the helo is still operational afterwards is another think. This "This can't be!" discussion is as superfluous as the "The F-15 can't do more than 9G" discussion.

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