Manpads (SA-18) have near unlimited ammo

[RIPTIDE]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/600721/UH-1HSA18.acmi

 

That's a Tacview of an AI UH-1H, invulnerable, set to threat ignoring for demonstration purposes vs a SA-18 MANPAD. THe MANPAD keeps pumping out shots. In 6 mins he shot 20 times at the chopper.

 

For reference, in the days of times past, a MANPAD typically was a 2 shot unit that would have to rearm itself after. I believe the current state of MANPADS ammunition to be excessive and possible needs attention.

 

EDIT: If this has been covered before I haven't seen it. I took a quick look around.

[Dun_Aenghus]

20 times in 6 minutes sounds really excessive. These weapons take time to reload with (I'd assume) a heavy projectile not to mention battery issues like overheating.

[AtaliaA1]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/600721/UH-1HSA18.acmi

 

That's a Tacview of an AI UH-1H, invulnerable, set to threat ignoring for demonstration purposes vs a SA-18 MANPAD. THe MANPAD keeps pumping out shots. In 6 mins he shot 20 times at the chopper.

 

For reference, in the days of times past, a MANPAD typically was a 2 shot unit that would have to rearm itself after. I believe the current state of MANPADS ammunition to be excessive and possible needs attention.

 

EDIT: If this has been covered before I haven't seen it. I took a quick look around.

 

 

It was discussed as a secondary topic in the missile avoidance thread. It does deserve its own thread as u have started, it was concluded there also that the manpad wasn't realistic.

[Silver_Dragon]

A manpads can´t be reloaded. Your main use has be fire other complete tube missile or change the trigger to other tube ready missile.

[Flagrum]

I could not replicate this. My MANPAD stopped firing after three shots.

 

Could you post your test mission?

[mig29movt]

If you you set up a player driven SA-18 and fire 3 shots it shows 3000+ seconds reloading time, switch to another unit and it will start shooting again after a few seconds. What I did: I fired 3 times, then switched to another unit and back to the SA-18 a couple of times (just for a second) and suddenly it will be reloaded again with 3 shots.

You can reproduce this.

[RIPTIDE]

I could not replicate this. My MANPAD stopped firing after three shots.

 

Could you post your test mission?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/600721/test4.miz

[Flagrum]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/600721/test4.miz

Allright, that shoots and shoots as if IR missiles would go out of fashion soon.

 

But I believe, this is because he can easily reload/restock at the airport.

MANPADS can fire 3 missiles and then have to "reload" (better: restock), which takes a lot of time. You can see this if you "enter" a MANPAD as player in CA. But as he is sitting directly at the source, he just restocks very quickly and continues shooting.

[Whiskeybravo]

Could it also be a function of using unlimited ammo in the difficulty options?

 

WB.

[mig29movt]

Allright, that shoots and shoots as if IR missiles would go out of fashion soon.

 

But I believe, this is because he can easily reload/restock at the airport.

MANPADS can fire 3 missiles and then have to "reload" (better: restock), which takes a lot of time. You can see this if you "enter" a MANPAD as player in CA. But as he is sitting directly at the source, he just restocks very quickly and continues shooting.

 

My experiment also was close to an airfield but anyway if the player is steering the unit, it takes forever to reload/restock

[Buzpilot]

Could it also be a function of using unlimited ammo in the difficulty options?

 

WB.

 

It's easy to check from the original mission, what the map options are set to, no unlimited ammo here. ( Customize menu, Map options. )

 

I also observed the Manpad was using 6 or was it 7 missiles, before it reloaded first time, he aimed away with launcher horizontal pointed, for about 12 seconds, and got 3 more, each time after .

This was after I moved the units away from the airport, so there's no fast reload from airport here, or at least there shouldn't be so far away.

Sa-18 Igla test.trk

[pepin1234]

I think the manpad in the real life is not reloaded. Maybe is better ED limited the Manpad for only 3 Launch and not reload with the rearming truck unit.

[159th_Viper]

I think the manpad in the real life is not reloaded.

 

It is.

[pepin1234]

It is.

 

in the battlefield?? How Long take to do it?

[159th_Viper]

in the battlefield?? How Long take to do it?

 

A couple of seconds?

 

To clarify, the Igla MANPAD system is modular, consisting for the purpose of this discussion a Launcher Control Assembly and the Launch Tube. The launch tube is a sealed unit with the missile contained in said tube. Once launched, the missile tube can be 'recycled', ie a new missile loaded and sealed in the tube and ready for next launch. This usually takes place at the base/supply depot but I see no reason why it cannot happen in-field in an operational situation.

 

Be that as it may, that's not what is strictly relevant here: I mentioned that the system is modular, ie at operational deployment you as MANPAD operator will have multiple launch tubes at your disposal, the number obviously dependant on operational parameters, supply-lines etc etc.

 

Subsequent to launch, the now-empty launch tube is detached from the Launcher Control Assembly. A new launch tube is taken and clipped into place on the Launcher Control Assembly and you're ready to fire again.

 

Rinse and Repeat.

 

As you can see, a couple of seconds is maybe a guess, but it's as quick as the #2 can get a new launch tube attached to the assembly and the time it takes for #1 to track.

[RIPTIDE]

It's easy to check from the original mission, what the map options are set to, no unlimited ammo here. ( Customize menu, Map options. )

 

I also observed the Manpad was using 6 or was it 7 missiles, before it reloaded first time, he aimed away with launcher horizontal pointed, for about 12 seconds, and got 3 more, each time after .

This was after I moved the units away from the airport, so there's no fast reload from airport here, or at least there shouldn't be so far away.

Precisely.

[Maverick-X]

I did a test with 3 positions of igla + huey:

-at an airport

-in the open

-in the open with supply truck

 

The igla at the airport was happily firing iglas nonstop.

The igla in the open fired 3 times and started a picnik.

The igla with the supply truck fired multiple times until I took control. I was able to fire 3 times until the reload timer of ~3600s startet. I then released control of the unit and took control again: fire away! (this seemed to work only once, but I didn't try it again to verify, but there is a reload button for CA if I recall correctly? I hardly use CA...)

 

In a second try w/o taking control the igla at the truck fired endlessly again, getting off 18 missiles in 5min16. Noticable are 3 shots in rather quick succession and then a pause while rearming.

 

EDIT: While firing the igla manually, you have a 16s reload phase, then about 5s until lock is established. After the third missile the reloading phase is ~3600s, unless you are anyway near supplys. If you hit the resupply button it takes 12s to resupply. (which is interesting, because it is ready to fire after resupply, there is no additional reloading phase. So firing manually seems to be faster, as there was a noticable longer delay after 3 missiles of the AI controled Igla)

Edited May 18, 2014 by Maverick-X

[AtaliaA1]

Isn't this indicative of the AI across the board for this sim?

 

Even in "Create fast mission" the AI is over done in it's ability to out gun us.

 

I enter a fast mission, the fur ball is in front of me about 10nm or so. I watch the action as I load up my DSMS and prepare to enter the fight. By the time I get there my flight members are taking a heck of a beating 5 of the 7 aircraft are falling from the sky. I pop out Aim9s like JuJu Beads at a movie theater and they have some effect but not equal to my advisories.

 

The second element enters the fray and the over achieving enemy AI repeat their astounding "Ace" like maneuvers as again I watch my team mates disappear into a cloud of black smoke after impacting the ground. Until I am alone in the fight battered but still limping along trying desperately to assist my mates in a battle that is lost before we start. (Hat on chest with tears streaming).

[RIPTIDE]

Allright, that shoots and shoots as if IR missiles would go out of fashion soon.

 

But I believe, this is because he can easily reload/restock at the airport.

MANPADS can fire 3 missiles and then have to "reload" (better: restock), which takes a lot of time. You can see this if you "enter" a MANPAD as player in CA. But as he is sitting directly at the source, he just restocks very quickly and continues shooting.

ok Airport. Understood. Something I'll have to remember when looking at mission design then.

[SkateZilla]

Allright, that shoots and shoots as if IR missiles would go out of fashion soon.

 

But I believe, this is because he can easily reload/restock at the airport.

MANPADS can fire 3 missiles and then have to "reload" (better: restock), which takes a lot of time. You can see this if you "enter" a MANPAD as player in CA. But as he is sitting directly at the source, he just restocks very quickly and continues shooting.

 

Basically, it's like Camping the Ammo Box in BF3 and Lobbing Grenades the entire round.