KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

[Sceptre]

Sorry BUT

 

The only thing i know of is the KH25-ML Proplem and this i can handle if it will be fixed once upon a time..

 

Nothing else for me. (The Shkval proplem pops up once in a month or so by flying the Shark nearly daily)

 

So can somebody please explain to me what those HUGE proplems are and why Flying the Shark is sooo frustrading ?

 

The point that me frustrades that there are no good and new Multiplayer missions for the KA-50 Coming up.

And is it just me who see the KA-50 pilots in Multiplayer only hanging around in Autohover or Something like that....later catching the next Wire guided missile and writing *I hate this Helicopter* into the Chat.

 

Whats going on ....Where is the KA-50 Spirit?

I love this Helicopter like it is and i like it cause its usage during Combat is hard.

 

I think the People are spoiled by flying the A-10C at 20000f drobing a GBU on a target what the JTAC did tell them before .. the Pilot skill here is : *Press some buttons* thats all.

 

Couldn't agree more, the Ka-50 has the right balance of flying skill and systems management.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Sceptre

[OGREMAN]

EXTRACT from post

What really annoys me with the ka-50 is that first you find a strange but pretty humongous problem, you report it, then you have to fight other community members about that think otherwise (some with very little to no experience in the ka-50) then you need to fight the testers, then maybe if he likes you and agrees he'll report it, and then who knows what happens after that.

I should apologise now for allowing my remarks to stray from the more narrow point of my Original Post! but this needs to be said......

The sentiment you have expressed here is one of the main reasons I only rarely post in these threads ........ apologists for DCS with short memories will often divert the Original Posters comments with long and geeky explanations as to why this degradation of performance is suddenly acceptable or even desirable.

You will get statements of "the company line" like

 

• 
  
• DCS have made this change in the light of NEW INFORMATION
  
• if you have better sources of info then we will consider your concern
  

The simple truth is that it is my perception that after flying unbroken in every version of this sim since "FLANKER" (that's a lot of experience over a long time) it is clear to me that many aspects of the current sims performance are a lot less capable than in previous versions. Also that on balance the so called "improvements/advancements" have been enacted at the expense of the overall degradation of the sims wider performance, in support of this I would site;

 

• 
  
• Bad AI movement characteristics for ground vehicles.
  
• greatly reduced ability to handle combat/battle activity in general
  
• very poor single and multiplay stability (most likely due to un-fixed memory leaks)
  
• insanely complex mission building(far too many ticks in boxes/settings)making simple actions hard to achieve.
  
• overall reduction in the number of clients the sim will support in a full combat mission.
  

[karambiatos]

The issue with the shkval is that its incredibly hard to replicate, it seems it happens less on newly made missions than old re-saved missions, then it seems new installs dont have as much issues, then its not the same behavior of things in MP and SP, and whether you're a host or not, and who knows what else.

 

For what its worth .i made a little track on an older resaved mission, in the newest beta, and the shkval starts screwing up after some time especially when you go low to the ground and move it up, it has a way of jumping to 100km.

This is somewhat consistent to what i get in my older non-beta install of DCS, though on some missions the shkval can become a nightmare.

Ka-50.trk

[Isegrim]

I checked your trk Karambiatos stop slewing around during rangefinding cycle (3s) should stop most of your proplems.

Caused by that the system gets incorrect distance data and is calculating by the angle pitch the Shkval has and your own altitude whatever it will from 0.1to 99.9 km.

 

Edit:

The more low you are the worse the proplem can get. Caused by the Angle the laser hits the Ground ,dont forget the laser has an diameter that increases by distance .

So if you try to get an Rangefinding at very low altidude by tracking the Ground the I-251 system can somtimes not get the correct distance. Less Altitude = less accurate the Rangefinding can be.

Better track a Building or even better a Target than.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Isegrim

[Havner]

+1

also for me the most annoying behaviour when you press the trim button and then your nose is diving into the ground. :joystick:

 

This is not a bug. I've wondered multiple times whether the strength of this dive shouldn't be smaller (there are threads on this forum discussing it), but the dive itself is normal.

 

If you steer without FD or trimmer pressed the AP fights with your input. Pressing trim during such a fight releases a correction AP made instantaneously causing a dive.

[karambiatos]

yes i know the thing with the slewing, but it should not be going to 100km either way, since the max laser range is 15, and it didnt use to do it, that I am sure of, and when it also does the opposite and instead of increasing the range it puts it on 0.

 

the track doesnt show it, when you lock and move the shkval a tiny bit horizontally and it jumps to 0 after the laser has stopped lasing, or when you dont have a track the range jumps to something random the moment the laser stops firing.

 

This is not a bug. I've wondered multiple times whether the strength of this dive shouldn't be smaller (there are threads on this forum discussing it), but the dive itself is normal.

You mean a helicopter thats incredibly unsafe to fly since a trim press at the wrong moment could mean death, i dont think the real helicopter dives 10 degrees after the trims pressed, and also this behaviour is not exhibited with an FFB joystick or when you hold trim, or in the mi-8 if im not mistaken.

Edited May 20, 2014 by karambiatos

[RagnarDa]

I should apologise now for allowing my remarks to stray from the more narrow point of my Original Post! but this needs to be said......

The sentiment you have expressed here is one of the main reasons I only rarely post in these threads ........ apologists for DCS with short memories will often divert the Original Posters comments with long and geeky explanations as to why this degradation of performance is suddenly acceptable or even desirable.

You will get statements of "the company line" like

 

• 
  
• DCS have made this change in the light of NEW INFORMATION
  
• if you have better sources of info then we will consider your concern
  

 

 

As a software developer I am going to take issue with the sentiment you are expressing here. Imagine a car owner leaving his car to a car mechanic just saying "It is broken, I hate you". The mechanic starts the car drives it around, do a full check and can't find anything wrong with it. When he returns it to the owner the owner still says it is broken without demonstrating in what way the owner finds it broken. This is basically what you are doing here. As I wrote above, something like the laser not working correctly in rain is something that has been coded in, because the Shkval in the game most likely doesn't use a real contour-detecting algorithm but cheats and locks objects that it already knows are there. You need to more convincingly show how this isn't something that should be happening, or that it even is something that doesn't happen just because of user-mismanagement. Stability issues has always been there, I had a lot of CTDs in both FC1 and BS1. They are horribly annoying but in my experience they have been pretty much constant over the years.

[Havner]

You mean a helicopter thats incredibly unsafe to fly since a trim press at the wrong moment could mean death, i dont think the real helicopter dives 10 degrees after the trims pressed, and also this behaviour is not exhibited with an FFB joystick or when you hold trim, or in the mi-8 if im not mistaken.

 

Yes, because you're not supposed to press a trimmer in a random moment. You press it only when the joystick is centered (or in a temporary center position with FFB/real heli)

 

1. On FFB joystick you got the same if you push the trimm when not in centered (current centered) position

2. Of course it doesn't happen when you hold the trimmer. That is the point! You disengage AP when trimm is held. And that's the way you're supposed to fly. Press the trimmer, move the stick, release the trimm.

3. I think Mi-8 only has dampeners, no full AP stabilization. So it can't duplicate this behaviour cause there is no hardware that causes it. Mi-8 behaves always as if the trimmer was held or Flight Director was turned on.

 

This has been talked through multiple times on this forum. Please, understand how the AP works. It will make life easier for you.

[karambiatos]

 

This has been talked through multiple times on this forum. Please, understand how the AP works. It will make life easier for you.

I understand very well how it works, but i would like to have the ability to use click trim and hold trim, click trim the way the trimmer is frustrating, and that russian pilots usually click trim.

anyway, not a how dumb the trimmer is thread.

[Havner]

I understand very well how it works, but i would like to have the ability to use click trim .

 

Sorry, but this sentence means you really don't. You can't click trimm. The underlaying AP would have too little information to know your intentions (when to disengage).

 

and that russian pilots usually click trim.

 

 

i seriously doubt that. Anything to back up your statement?

 

You can click trimm with FD turned on. Then it behaves the same way as (probably) Mi-8. Dampeners on, but there is no full "keep attitude mode". In real heli it would only cause the stick to be recentered, wouldn't affect the AP (it is partially disengaged).

Edited May 20, 2014 by Havner

[NineLine]

I know a lot of you are frustrated with limited love for the Ka-50 and I understand that, but these threads dont do much good, so help me help you. If you have a bug for the Ka-50 file a report in the Ka-50 bugs section, for this venture, in your thread title put "[bUG REPORT] title". Please include a short track showing just the issue, long tracks are of no use as no one has time to go through a long track. Detail your issue in the post, include any log files and any other information you deem might be relevant. Only one bug per one report. With this I will search out and see if its been reported, if not I will use your information, verify and report the bug.

 

Maybe this sounds like a lot of work, and this is purely volunteer, I am not the strongest when it comes to the Ka-50 so this will be helpful for me to determine if your issues have indeed been reported.

 

This doesnt mean that a fix will come instantly either, ED is not a huge company, and with huge things like EDGE happening, resources can be thin, that said, making sure these things are reported are important.

 

This will be more constructive than these threads, and I hope more rewarding :)

[karambiatos]

Sorry, but this sentence means you really don't. You can't click trimm. The underlaying AP would have too little information to know your intentions (when to disengage).

 

Sure thing...

 

i seriously doubt that. Anything to back up your statement?

linking the same video for the 20th time i think

 

 

listen to the trim sounds.

The helicopter does have a slight bump when a trim happens, but no where as insane as in the game.

[Havner]

linking the same video for the 20th time i think

 

 

listen to the trim sounds.

The helicopter does have a slight bump when a trim happens, but no where as insane as in the game.

 

This video proves nothing to me. From what I can see and hear the guy is flying with the trimmer turned on most of the time. When you hear the click he is releasing the trimm and immediately repressing it again (to lower the "FFB" forces on his hand). The heli doesn't keep the attitude by itself most of the flight meaning the AP is disengaged. Which means he has to keep the trimm pressed when maneuvering.

We'd have to see his hand to be sure. The sound is only on the trimm release. We have no idea when he actually presses it.

 

I agree with you that it is possible to implement the trimmer the way you'd like it (heck, I'd like it as well). But for this to work the AP would need to be able to distinguish attitude changes caused by external forces (wind, turbulences) and internal ones (cyclic move). From what I know in the real Ka-50 the 20% of its correction is applied after the input from the cyclic, not before.

 

Maybe in Ka-52 or some newer versions of Ka-50 (Turkish) it is smarter. The one we have in the sim is the 'dumb' version. And with this implementation it behaves properly.

[sorcer3r]

This video proves nothing to me. From what I can see and hear the guy is flying with the trimmer turned on most of the time.

 

IMO this video shows click trim.

[Havner]

IMO this video shows click trim.

 

How can you know when he presses? We are only able to know when he releases. That's when the metallic sound is heard.

 

A definitive video would have to show his thumb (or whole hand, depending on the version/prototype).

[sorcer3r]

How can you know when he presses? We are only able to know when he releases. That's when the metallic sound is heard.

 

A definitive video would have to show his thumb (or whole hand, depending on the version/prototype).

 

 

Between 1:20 - 1:50 he is pressing trim button so often sometimes and this does not make any sense for me if it was trim hold.

Edited May 20, 2014 by sorcer3r

[Eldur]

The only thing i know of is the KH25-ML Proplem and this i can handle if it will be fixed once upon a time...

 

I don't know what's exactly meant, but I think it's its extremely low range. I always wondered about that, but since 1.2.5 (dunno exactly), they're limited to like 7km.

 

Now this: http://books.google.de/books?id=l-DzknmTgDUC&pg=PA235&source=gbs_toc_r&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

(next page): "Effective range depends on the guidance technique: 8 km for radio command, 10 km for laser guidance, 40 km for antiradar." If you rad the next sentence, the MP is even a tad heavier than the ML. Why does the ML start to fall out of the sky after going 6-7km and the MP does not? It's exactly the same missile with just a different guidance system. I presume the ML should theoretically also be able to go 40km, but practically it's limited to the lase designator's range, not to mention that it probably won't see a laser dot at 10+km at all even if it's being painted by another unit.

[Havner]

He is making only small corrections then. So it might be click trimm or for the pilot it's just an inverted click trimm. Pressed is a normal position. A click is a cycle of release and repress.

 

Look at 3:00+ when he does serious heading changes. The sounds of trimm are the same and it has to be press trimm. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to change the heading so easily (i don't think the heading channel is off).

[Eldur]

1. On FFB joystick you got the same if you push the trimm when not in centered (current centered) position

2. Of course it doesn't happen when you hold the trimmer. That is the point! You disengage AP when trimm is held. And that's the way you're supposed to fly. Press the trimmer, move the stick, release the trimm.

 

And that's what works best. But they still have to patch out the rudder input from trim. This is awful. And yes, I know PeterP's Autohotkey workaround.

[Havner]

KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

 

And that's what works best. But they still have to patch out the rudder input from trim. This is awful. And yes, I know PeterP's Autohotkey workaround.

 

 

With this I agree. It's not about realism but the lack of FFB rudder on the market.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Havner

[Eldur]

FFB rudders would be so awesome...

[sorcer3r]

Look at 3:00+ when he does serious heading changes. The sounds of trimm are the same and it has to be press trimm. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to change the heading so easily (i don't think the heading channel is off).

 

Still click trim for me.

I think if the real Ka-50 would behave like BS does currently in DCS real pilots should be advised not to click trim and then I guess it should be known. :helpsmilie:

[Havner]

They are advised to click it before moving the cyclic. Of course they are not advised to click after they move it. Which is what you're trying to do.

[ShuRugal]

The issue with the shkval is that its incredibly hard to replicate, it seems it happens less on newly made missions than old re-saved missions, then it seems new installs dont have as much issues, then its not the same behavior of things in MP and SP, and whether you're a host or not, and who knows what else.

 

Every time I have flown the KA-50 since integration into World, I have had this problem. Every mission, single player, multiplayer, all weather conditions. The only thing that changes is the severity of the problem. Sometimes it will only pop up every couple minutes, other times it is so bad i can't get a shot off without continuously thumbing the laser.

 

And that's what works best. But they still have to patch out the rudder input from trim. This is awful. And yes, I know PeterP's Autohotkey workaround.

 

I actually like that the rudders are chained (though i can see how some people might like the option to unchain them). I have my pedals set up with a fair amount of exponential curvature, so that I have more precise control available when performing rocket or (boresighted) gun runs. In this case, centering the rudder is desirable because it keeps them in the high-resolution range of travel.

 

This is not a bug. I've wondered multiple times whether the strength of this dive shouldn't be smaller (there are threads on this forum discussing it), but the dive itself is normal.

 

No, the dive is a result of the simulator using input from the joystick to simulate pressure from the pilot's hand on the real stick: In the real thing, the autopilot operates by moving the control stick (you can see this if you put into route mode and release the stick. IF you engage Alt hold, collective will move 'on its own' as well). In the real helicopter, there will be no dive, because the position of the stick is always 100% the position of the swashplate. If the real pilot moves the stick without pressing trimmer, he is overcoming the centering force and the correction force from the AP. He won't have to move stick further to compensate for AP, just press harder for the same movement.

 

The problem with the way it is simulated is that we -do- have to overcompensate our movements for the AP. With a FFB stick, this should not be the case, but I can't test this as I don't have one. If the dive still exists with a FFB stick, then there is a bug with that functionality.

[Isegrim]

I don't know what's exactly meant, but I think it's its extremely low range. I always wondered about that, but since 1.2.5 (dunno exactly), they're limited to like 7km.

 

Now this: http://books.google.de/books?id=l-DzknmTgDUC&pg=PA235&source=gbs_toc_r&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

(next page): "Effective range depends on the guidance technique: 8 km for radio command, 10 km for laser guidance, 40 km for antiradar." If you rad the next sentence, the MP is even a tad heavier than the ML. Why does the ML start to fall out of the sky after going 6-7km and the MP does not? It's exactly the same missile with just a different guidance system. I presume the ML should theoretically also be able to go 40km, but practically it's limited to the lase designator's range, not to mention that it probably won't see a laser dot at 10+km at all even if it's being painted by another unit.

 

 

ED is currently including the AFM for A-G Missiles.

And they are using the *KAREN* as test objekt, they know that its need to be tweaked.