Common sense lost on online servers

[Kenan]

I was flying online today (doesn't really matter what server) and I keep seeing friendlies who are heading back to base and at the same time having their radars ON, painting their OWN guys (who are heading towards the CAP zone) and, to make things worse, have their jammers ON.

 

So many times I have wasted "engaging" jamming contacts (who were painting me) just to find out (on the burn through) those were friendlies going RTB. Now, imagine if among those sneaks in a genuine bandit - he's getting the best possible cover, right there.

 

I really don't understand why some folks have their jammers on all the time..ECM is IMO completely useless/misshandled on online public servers, it does more harm then good, especially to your own side. (Of course, using it in organized squadron vs squadron match would be a completely different matter).

 

By going RTB and having your own guys fly towards you (effectively providing you a cover if you have a bandit behind trying to catch up with you), you don't want to have your radar on and paint them, give them false readings on an imminent threat. If you add jammer to the mix, then you're just making their job a lot harder then it should be.

 

But I guess some folks hit the "E" button the moment they enter the game and switch their radars OFF at the same time they hit the game EXIT button...

[xxJohnxx]

Squadrons is the keyword here. It is sad, but if you want to have a decent experience in multiplayer (especially in a wartime scenario, aerobatics is another thing) you most likely have to find yourself a squadron that shares the same views about realism and experience.

[Python]

This is why more in depth and engaging training missions would be nice, I imagine 90% of people simply don't know how to properly use such equipment.

[Exorcet]

Most people online fly alone, so of course radar is going to be on all the time. You would be flying to the front lines with your radar. How do they ID friend or foe?

 

As for ECM, I blame the way ECM is modeled. ECM is probably most useful when you're RTBing because you're no longer a threat to the enemy, but you look like one to them. I've flown past allies on the way to land and turned on ECM to mask them. Don't expect an enemy to make much use of this because they will see a bunch of jamming beams themselves.

 

If you're really lost, try to communicate with other players.

 

I think the bottom line though is that an ECM overhaul should be a high priority for the sim.

[sorcer3r]

Isn't it possible to declare targets or get a picture by AWACS ?

[Kenan]

Most people online fly alone, so of course radar is going to be on all the time. You would be flying to the front lines with your radar. How do they ID friend or foe?

 

I was refering to the pilots who are going RTB. If you're pointing your jet away from the frontline, towards the direction of a friendly zone (airbase), there's no need to have your radar ON. Presuming of course, there are air defences installed to keep the enemy from getting near. It's just a common sense.

 

IF you are being constantly spiked from the direction you shouldn't be, you can always -check- if it's a friendly by switching the radar on but that rarely happens. I never have my radar on when I'm heading home and never had any problems with it. People would just paint me and see that I'm a friendly and move on.

[Exorcet]

I was refering to the pilots who are going RTB. If you're pointing your jet away from the frontline, towards the direction of a friendly zone (airbase), there's no need to have your radar ON. Presuming of course, there are air defences installed to keep the enemy from getting near. It's just a common sense.

 

I was talking about those same people. Either you're flying on a big map with lots of space or in a cramped map where everything is on top of each other. Each of these maps allows for enemy aircraft to be anywhere. I've caught them because I was RTBing with my radar on. There really isn't a reason to shut off your radar until maybe you're on the ground.

 

IF you are being constantly spiked from the direction you shouldn't be, you can always -check- if it's a friendly by switching the radar on but that rarely happens. I never have my radar on when I'm heading home and never had any problems with it. People would just paint me and see that I'm a friendly and move on.

 

Well I've never had problems flying back with my radar on. I'm able to see friendlies approaching me/the front and possibly give them instructions/information. If I turned off my radar, it's just one more blind spot for the enemy to hide in. The only potential problem is the SPO-15 with its lack of IFF, but I handle that by IDing friendlies and announcing my presence.

[Eddie]

Well, IRL RADAR is on from the moment the weight on wheel switch comes off to the moment it comes on again. The FCR is essential to building and maintaining SA and ensuring airspace deconfliction. At least, in the western world.

 

Your "common sense" is actually directly opposite to real world TTPs. This RADAR on/RADAR off switch is very much an FC thing. As for ECM, well given how it's modelled in DCS World then yes, people perhaps should be turning it off, but then how it works doesn't match reality and in reality having the defensive aids suite(including ECM) on for the majority of the flight is not uncommon either.

 

What you actually need is to build better SA yourself, especially with respect to the position and actions of friendly flights. It also sounds like mission design is part of the problem here as well, if every side has every aircraft it's not surprising building decent SA is very difficult.

[Kenan]

 

Your "common sense" is actually directly opposite to real world TTPs.

 

In DCS if you're flying a russian jet, your SPO will light up if you have a RTBing friendly (or anyone for that matter) painting you at 12 o' clock. Untill you detect bandits on your radar, if flying alone, you rely on your SPO to catch the enemy radar transmission and point your jet towards the direction where that radar transmission (SPO signal) is strongest. That's how you look for bandits when you do not have AWACS and when you're not using teamspeak / flying alone.

 

So yeah, when you have guys constantly painting you although they can clearly see the area ahead of them is clear of enemies, that's just anoying and it makes it harder for you to sort out genuine enemy contacts.

[Exorcet]

I have no idea why they would be locked on to you, though you can still communicate when flying alone and without TS. Use the chat.

 

If they're not locking you up, you might just have to deal with the clutter. Ask around for additional SA, make use of the all those radars being on.

[Kenan]

^^It's because it's a public server and I guess some folks are not really that "experienced" in FC or simply don't care about those things. I guess I'm just gonna have to live with it..

[Axion]

It certainly doesn't help matters that some Russian birds do not have 'ECM on' indication, at present.

[FLANKERATOR]

I agree with Exorcet. I never quite understood why does anyone have to sacrifice his own SA when heading back home, so that I can be sure that anybody painting me is a foe.

 

Off course, you can ask your squad-mates to shut their radars off temporarily, they may comply if they can at that specific moment, but asking friendlies to fly blindly systematically on RTB has never made sense to me. More than often, I spotted enemies on my way back home, sometimes sneaking up on friendlies who just took off.

 

I'd say, it's up to you to use your radar to build you SA and determine when taking a shot is safe and when it's not. HOJ shots especially when the server is crowded is a big gamble with a low PK anyway, it's not worth it in my opinion.

[Abburo]

I am reading this topic and I realize there are some important thinks out of my knowledge area. While the initial complain seems to be true I just want to let you know that for sure there are some unexperienced pilots over here which are simply not aware about some good sense rules. I am one of those, no military background, not fully aware about modern avionics and so on.

 

For this reason I think it will be so hopefull that if you try to write down some "online rules" which must be read easily by anyone. I remember the good old time IL2 rules, but for sure here there are some extra tips :)

Edited June 1, 2014 by Abburo

[Kenan]

but asking friendlies to fly blindly systematically on RTB has never made sense to me. More than often, I spotted enemies on my way back home, sometimes sneaking up on friendlies who just took off.

 

If you're far away from your airbase, of course you're not gonna be flying blind some 150-200km or so..your radar would be ON all the time.

 

However, servers I'm flying on are pretty much sandbox types, meaning, airfields are fairly close to the CAP area and are very well defended. Of course, if I knew my airbase was stripped of air defences, I would never RTB without my radar ON, but that's not the case.

 

Bottom line: well protected airbase, close to CAP area (say some 60-80km), there is a very small chance bandit would be able to squeeze in between you and your friendlies (which are constantly taking off), close to friendly SAM units and have a shot at you.

 

This is why, IMO, having radar ON and jamming while going RTB is a nuissance for the friendlies scanning your direction.

[ENO]

And it's this kind of thread that scares people from coming in online.

[Kenan]

^^It should be!

 

:D

[Sceptre]

And it's this kind of thread that scares people from coming in online.

 

Yes, this is so true and why a lot of people avoid FC3

[Maximus_Lazarus]

If that were true ^ , than nobody would play any FPS online ever :lol:

 

The rage going around is about 100x more intense .

 

Problem is that the chat is way too cumbersome to use , but ideally everybody would just be on TS.

[Kenan]

Yes, this is so true and why a lot of people avoid FC3

 

Nobody is "avoiding" FC because of what's posted on this message board. Noone has to read these threads if he or she doesn't want to. And..even if we had all of those FC3 jets modelled @ DCS level, we would still have threads like these because there will always be issues to talk about. It's a nature of online play, be it FPS, a flight sim, checkers or whatever.. ;)

[ralfidude]

Jamming on the way home causes noise for enemies behind me, which helps any friendlies going past me into the action as well.

 

It's a double edged sword that helps and hurts depending on who you are talking about.

 

Generally speaking, when I see that a friendly has locked me up with my jammer on, I will turn the jammer off for a few seconds to let that IFF kick in and then turn it back on, this lets the friendly know what's going on and has generally never been a problem.

 

Radar stays on all the time, you have no ****ing idea how many times that has saved my life up to 20 miles from my main base.

 

Now, the only time I see the radar on as a problem, is when the mission is running migs and SUs on both teams and you have A-10s flying around and they can't tell the difference between friend and foe. Those guys have all the reasons to bitch about this, not you in a fighter though. I have engaged friendly Migs and Sukhois in my A-10 before because they thought it would be a fun idea to lock me up for whatever reason. This is a no no. You will be shot down if you do that.

[ENO]

Nobody is "avoiding" FC because of what's posted on this message board. Noone has to read these threads if he or she doesn't want to. And..even if we had all of those FC3 jets modelled @ DCS level, we would still have threads like these because there will always be issues to talk about. It's a nature of online play, be it FPS, a flight sim, checkers or whatever.. ;)

 

People are avoiding online gameplay because of senseless snobbery like what is portrayed in your thread. It's this kind of elitest BS that intimidates those who are constantly feeling like they aren't "good enough."

 

It's exactly your type of snob that most servers don't want onboard- especially the open ones.

 

Go find a squadron to hide in... the open community has absolutely had it with your kind.

[159th_Viper]

I have engaged friendly Migs and Sukhois in my A-10 before because they thought it would be a fun idea to lock me up for whatever reason. This is a no no. You will be shot down if you do that.

 

Aye, locking a potential freindly without a 'raygun' call is looking for trouble.

[Kenan]

Dear ENO,

 

First of all I am not a snob or elitist. Im a great guy and you would immediately realize that if you ever had a chance to meet me in person. Second, I already have a squadron of my own but they are just simply not good enough to fly with me and I just cant allow myself to be seen with them on any server. This is why I like to fly solo on a public server to show off my skillz. When Im done flying on a server, I send them the track file so they can -learn- how to fly by watching an experienced, top notch pilot do his stuff. If I was a snob I wouldnt have bothered helping them, right? Also, I have set up an internal squadron hotline, available every Mon - Fri from 1PM to 5PM where I answer all of their questions and charge these calls 5€/minute. All the money I earn from these sessions go to the FIPAFO (Foundation of Intimidated Pilots Afraid to Fly Online).

 

Wanna take back all those things you wrote about me now?

Edited June 2, 2014 by Kenan

[sobek]

Knock it off, guys, or at least take it down a notch.