Multiplayer few years ago and now - from FC 1.12b to DCS

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Pffftttttt..........:megalol:

 

Yeah right.

 

lol thank you for proving my point :) watch some tournaments on YouTube, some hand movement video's. Took me 1,5 years of intense practice, only to realize that if i ever wanted to come close to the good guys i should have starter 10 years earlier.

 

Blaze, i really dont get where you are coming from. Always so hostile :-/

[159th_Viper]

lol thank you for proving my point :)

 

With due respect M8 you have absolutely no friggin' idea what your point actually is. You might have an idea but trust me when I tell you that your train if thought is so misguided that it borders on folly.

 

You might want to quit while there's still a hint of light.

[TAW_Blaze]

lol thank you for proving my point :) watch some tournaments on YouTube, some hand movement video's. Took me 1,5 years of intense practice, only to realize that if i ever wanted to come close to the good guys i should have starter 10 years earlier.

 

Blaze, i really dont get where you are coming from. Always so hostile :-/

 

You can't make a comparison between two things when you don't know jack about one. I'm not being hostile, just pointing out your blatant ignorance.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Wouldnt that go 2 ways then ?

You and guy above are fps and tekken experts then ?

 

Love the hypocracy.

Fine : DCS masterrace :)

 

Later.

 

@Eno, i kind of get what youre saying, but competitiveness is kind of inherent with

multiplayer person vs person regardless what game genre.

[TAW_Blaze]

You missed the point. I don't care about any game vs game arguments, they are childish. You're just trying to make a comparison but of the two things you're trying to compare one you don't have any clue about. I don't have to be the expert of /any/ game for this statement to be valid. It just goes with logic.

 

I believe if you're dedicated enough you can be good at /anything/ regardless what it is. My own past has proven this pretty well to me.

[tsumikae]

Wouldnt that go 2 ways then ?

You and guy above are fps and tekken experts then ?

 

 

I can safely say that none of those are coming close to the level of planning and knowledge required in a sim such as DCS.

 

Most FPS are no brainers, really: your reflexes and experience count the most. But overall, appart from the mandatory ten or so keys you'll need to do everything, it won't get the best of you. Anyone can play FPS.

 

As for Tekken, you can't be serious. Chaining button mashup sequences in the same timing over and over and over to answer specific situations is Pavlovian conditioning at best ;)

 

And yes, I know both quite well.

[theOden]

.. Anyone can play FPS..

Unlike DCS I take it, right?

[Falcon_S]

Let's forget the FPS and comparing this to our world, a world of a pilots ;) . Let's talk about our multiplayer and how to improve it, enhance it ...

 

These things (first post) are important to us and personally this sim I would not replace with some FPS never.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Falcon_S

[carrollhead]

Amusing as the FPS discussion is (did you know Tekken has "mindgames"?), shouldn't we at least try to discuss what (if anything) the community as a whole can do to try and make up some of the lost ground in multiplayer?

 

The truth is that getting new players in (and staying) is hard. It's a big ol' learning curve, and one you never really get off. That puts off all of the people I would rather not be in the game TBH, but it also puts off a lot of guys who would probably be really good teamplayers and pilots.

 

I don't think it's because they're afraid to put the work in, but I guess they want to feel some sort of progression. Getting whacked within a minute of taking off doesn't help with that. The only way around it is to get people into squads who can dedicate the time to help people learn (which we do), but then that might be a level of comittment too far for players just having a casual look. It's a bit of a catch-22 at the moment.

 

I'm not moaning BTW, but I think there is some ground to be gained here, and also in trying more to get the squads we do have flying with each other. If we could try to re-kindle that sense of friendly competiveness then I think we would be on the way to things getting better.

 

Again - I'm not having a go, some people are trying to do this and I'm really grateful. Still, we need more (I volunteer BTW:pilotfly:)

[104th_Maverick]

only to realize that if i ever wanted to come close to the good guys i should have starter 10 years earlier.

 

This is very far from the truth, experience is not what makes you great in this sim, however it goes a long way to helping you.

The main thing experience gives you is the ability to make 'better' decisions in your aircraft.

 

I started 2 months after FC2 came out and climbed up the ladder relatively quickly, before FC3 had came out I had made it into the Lockon Hall of Fame for air to air!

 

So don't let anyone tell you, you need to have been flying for 10 years to compete because you don't.

 

You don't get on very well with <Blaze> but he stands as a good example for you. He didn't fly in FC2 at all and only flew in FC3, now he is right up there with some of the best pilots in the game.

 

Why???

 

Well he has a natural ability to deal with the pressures of BVR very well and because we trained him properly and he gets lots of help from guys like me, IronMike, Riptide and Mustang.

 

Never underestimate the power of joining a Squadron of people who have dominated BVR for the past 6+ years!

 

Its all about how you learn and the people you surround yourself with, if you don't have the right attitude you won't go very far.

 

 

You need to be less concerned with your score and more concerned about learning why something worked or why it did not work.

 

Getting shot down is an essential part of getting better at BVR, so if your goal early on is to fly every sortie without getting killed you won't learn very fast at all. You will stagnate into one of these pilots who gets it.... but can't dish it out very well consistently and trust me there are a lot of these people flying today!

 

You need to be taking risks and learning from these risks.

 

TRUST ME to the pilots who matter... your score doesn't mean Jack Sh!t!

 

All it means to them is that you have been fighting easy people before they have turned up!

 

Your attitude although competitive (which is a good thing) is a little too in peoples face however, we have had to have a chat a few times about your manner on our server.

 

I kindly suggest you tone it down a bit and be more prepared to LEARN from people in the server and on these forums.... remember there is NOTHING wrong ... with being wrong, your still 'relatively' new to this community.

 

 

 

It is far to much to expect of yourself to know all there is to know at this stage.... you must keep in mind that some people you are arguing with on these forums or in game have been doing this for a long.... long time.

 

So take a step back and be more prepared to listen to people than tell them how it is, this is how you will get better.

 

If you don't then trust me.... you will just end up as one of these hot heads who think they are great but just make themselves a target because everyone just wants to shoot you down to shut you up!

 

This will take your enjoyment away from the game and you will rage quit more frequently, trust me I have seen it many times before in the past!

 

Much better to eat a little humble pie and say "hey.. these guys know more than I do, have more experience and have better skills than me... maybe I can learn something here"

 

 

 

Every 'Ace' pilot in this sim started from somewhere and got his ass kicked on the regular for a while, what makes the difference between 'good' pilots and 'great' pilots is their ability to learn from their mistakes and to be honestly critical of their own performance and where they could have done better.

Thinking your just 'great' is total BS, no one in this sim is untouchable, no one! The great guys are great because of training, practice and a positive mental attitude, not because they have good hands and feet.

 

Flying around all the time thinking your a hard ass won't get you anywhere apart from the MP lobby when you've rage quit cause someone shot you the God of War down!

 

I just want to point out that your not terrible at all, far from it, from what I have seen you a have a lot of potential to do very well in air to air.

 

Whats going to make or break you however is your attitude, again sorry for coming all over like 'do this do that' but if you don't change your attitude and be more concerned with learning than winning you won't improve very quickly at all...... yes you will get better... but slowly and after many rage quits.

 

Far... far better to take a fresh attitude of breaking down situations and understanding what worked and what didn't than getting all pissed off cause you got shot down.

 

You obviously have played lots of games in the past, your competitive nature like myself will mean you strive to be the best at the games / sims you are passionate about. However the sooner your realise and accept that the only way your going to climb up the DCSW Air to Air ranks is to accept your down the order at the moment but will keep climbing as times goes on.

 

Expecting yourself to be one of the best pilots more or less straight away is far too unrealistic, no matter how gifted a pilot you are, you are flying against people who have been smashing the sh!t out of guys like you for a long time... your not the first hot head to come along... and you certainly wont be the last either ;)

 

Be more humble and more willing to learn online and in these forums and you will see massive improvements in your game, choose not to do so.... and you will be ejecting more than your comfortable with :)

[MTFDarkEagle]

;2100306']*volume of text*

 

:notworthy:

[tsumikae]

Unlike DCS I take it, right?

 

I'd be a hyprocrit to pretend I didn't mean that. But truth is, the learning curves of both categories are a bit different, wouldn't you say? Not everyone has the will and/or time to commit himself into a complex sim. It's a fact that FPS are casual.

 

It was really meant as an answer to Lazarus' "They require dedication, knowledge, and effort needed to get good, on a level that FAR exceed this sim" line. Which was a total nonsense, really.

[karambiatos]

most of all they require money (those peripherals arent cheap)

[TAW_Blaze]

;2100306']Its all about how you learn and the people you surround yourself with' date=' if you don't have the right attitude you won't go very far.[/quote']

 

Oh yeah, surround yourself with a certain type of people and you'll turn to be one of them. This is so true.

[Exorcet]

I can safely say that none of those are coming close to the level of planning and knowledge required in a sim such as DCS.

 

Most FPS are no brainers, really: your reflexes and experience count the most. But overall, appart from the mandatory ten or so keys you'll need to do everything, it won't get the best of you. Anyone can play FPS.

 

 

As for Tekken, you can't be serious. Chaining button mashup sequences in the same timing over and over and over to answer specific situations is Pavlovian conditioning at best ;)

 

And yes, I know both quite well.

Anyone can play a game badly, that goes for DCS. It's not really all that hard to get into. There's probably more to learn/remember than the average game, but once you know what to do you need to learn how to do it will. FPS, fighter, or flight sim, that can be quite a long time.

 

I don't see a need to lable FPS players, it's not a useful classification.

[Frostie]

It's a tried and tested fact that given a month of practice and an ounce of nouse players in public servers become obsessive about how good they are. Just about everyone who has flown FC with dedication has been through this solo flying killing run where they believe they've cracked it. Its probably makes up a fifth if not worse, of what makes a true virtual fighter pilot. Public servers to the experienced are just training grounds for when it matters. Facing off against coordinated sides and playing your part well is where you earn your stripes.

 

That being said if server stats ever resu

rfaced then I'm sure a bit more care would be back in public servers.

[tsumikae]

Anyone can play a game badly, that goes for DCS. It's not really all that hard to get into. There's probably more to learn/remember than the average game, but once you know what to do you need to learn how to do it will. FPS, fighter, or flight sim, that can be quite a long time.

 

I don't see a need to lable FPS players, it's not a useful classification.

 

Fully agree. I realize some stuff I wrote could be taken the wrong way: I never intended to label anyone. I did say that FPS were no brainers, not that FPS players had no brain, for instance. My point was only about the level of commitment required. And there I stand my ground: hardcore sims are more demanding than FPS. Weither you are good or bad at any of those is not the question.

[Blooze]

Considering the OP I have to look back and remember us to good old days because I think we lost a lot more even though we get a lot with the current level of this simulator I think there is a principle involved that hasn't yet been addressed in this thread. That involves the addiction factor. People that are addicted to something are usually the last to admit it. They perceive it as a weakness and enter a state of denial. I am an addict and have been all my life. I approach DCS as an addict and have become addicted to it. IMO anyone that plays a video game every day whether it be a FPS or a study sim does so because they have become addicted to it whether they admit it or not. That said, what an addict always needs is more of the "drug of choice" so to speak, to achieve the same high. What ED has failed to produce soon enough is more of what an addict needs, so many have turned elsewhere for their fix. IMO this is what has led to the decline in overall enthusiasm, and I fear that the longer it goes the worse it will get. When EDGE finally arrives, who will still be around to appreciate it?

[carrollhead]

You're bang on Blooze :).

 

That's why I think those of us who do fly as groups should try to look at ways of getting together more. It would return some of that "buzz", and help keep the old girl going until we get the new engine.

 

Past a certain point, you need interaction with other pilots in DCS to keep the game a challenge.

 

Just some ideas - not sure if there would be much of a take up...

 

1. Try some bombing competitions.

2. Try flying as teams in the bigger public server, and (shock) get the fighters to actually cover the ground attack planes. (I know some do this, but...)

3. Have some friendly formation type events, where those of us who take it a little less seriously than the display teams can have a go.

 

I know it's been done before, but not doing it isn't helping the general level of interest I guess.:)

[RIPTIDE]

I have to look back and remember us to good old days because I think we lost a lot more even though we get a lot with the current level of this simulator.

 

What we lost:

 

1. People / Squadrons - I will mention a few and there are many more, =SE= SerbianEagles, =TuAF=, many of 141st_Wolves, 169th_Panthers, =AH=, =RvE=, some of =238.lbae=, some of =4c=... and many more.
   
2. Events - RedFlag, BSS, Nucleus, CI/GI, OPFOR, AerobaticShows... These events are awaited with excitement. It was worth it to be part of such memorable developments.
   
3. Daily entertainment on servers - Uh, what's all this fighting was! Action, action, and only action!!! A2A, A2G... There were so many people on the server that I once in the air directly collided with with my opponent 169th_Ice :lol: . The entire server on fire. Bombers fight ground targets according to our needs to we could penetrate deeper and control airspace, bases attacked, alarms on all sides, attacked the fleet, sink ships... On the chat: "Cover AWAAAAAAAACS!!! , "Bandit on the North, cover AWAAAAAACS!!!, ...coalition thanks for some of individual action...
   
4. Crimea map - Best fights happens here, here would enjoy and mission designers...
   
5. Hyperlobby - Many good things on HL. Chat, Server list, Who play where and a lot friendship fun when we not flying...
   

 

I miss all of this. And you guys?

 

What we get against the said:

 

1. More and more lone wolfs
   
2. No more events
   
3. Anyone flying to himself, silence on the server, a few words on chat...
   
4. The cliffs of the Caucasus and not very interesting to most pilots
   
5. Closed server browser
   

 

Many old FC fans will agree with me. :helpsmilie:

I haven't read the thread...

 

But... in my time here from the end of FC1 into FC2 and now FC3/DCSW I have seen a lot of guys disappear when FC2 came. Some renamed some just vanished. Many vanished because they couldn't see the 'dot' in the sky anymore. noobs. Many vanished because they couldn't use same tactics and started to get owned and couldn't change their game.

 

From FC2-FC3 I think the Master server sign on has got rid of a lot of guys that were using key hacks or whatever to basically play a pirated version.

 

There have been other reasons, early and current problems with stability and patches this and that have caused attrition. I miss the high volume. But I'm glad of the things and changes I have seen, overall.

[TAW_Blaze]

We're missing some tools to organize a bit more serious events with more guys, a few of these are:

 

1) Dynamic campaign. I'm sure you can do something similar with a very busy mission builder, but it's not even close.

 

2) This one is related to the one above. AI behaviour is idiotic in a lot of cases. Not necessarily talking about aircraft. This could be substituted by CA, but, well, that module is not known for helping stability. Which leads us to the next point:

 

3) Stability. Right now if you run more than 25-30 guys in a combat environment the server won't survive too long. In my opinion it's essential that we can take 50-60 guys on the same server for more than 3 hours to do something more interesting. There has been an amazing amount of improvement since 1.2.6, but we're still not quite there.

 

I think if we get the 3 above just fine it'll gradually improve. There's a definite will of doing serious events in the community but it just doesn't quite work, yet.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

big post

 

Just a quick reply to this post, as i think it deserves one .

 

One thing i'd like to point out is, that i truely do not understand where this alledged "i am so great" attitude of mine would be coming from.

I don't think that, at all, and i honestly can not for the life of me figure out where some of you get this idea from.

I even checked my posts to see if i come off as someone who thinks he's the ****, but can not figure out why some of you think that i "fly around thinking i'm a hardass" :huh:

I'm fully aware i'm a newb. I am not the least bit ashamed to ask the dumbest questions in the forums, or show my terrible failures in youtubes.

 

I think it might be the signature , combined with my unhealthy obsession with statistics (please do NOT bring back the stats page!) that makes some people think , that i think i'm "awesome".

 

As for the rest of the excellent post, i will take your advice, also change my signature because altough it's a joke, i can understand it can give the wrong idea.

 

sry for this interruption, but i felt compelled to respond, again sry for interrupt let's go back on topic :)

Edited June 25, 2014 by Maximus_Lazarus

[Bushmanni]

So much hate and fear of THE fps player

 

I hope you all realize that

 

1) People are different, there are mature and kiddie people in every game genre.

2) Every game genre has people that put in great amounts of effort in to get better. If that is perfecting a barrel roll, or perfecting your aim time, i really don't see the difference. You can play any game on a committed level . There is only one goal, and that is to get better. Regardless of what game that is.

3) This sim, awesome as it may be, is not the all superior to other games when talking about "intelligence" or "knowledge". There are seemingly "simple" games (tekken for instance), that go so deep many of the experienced simmers couldn't even grasp even if they tried.

They require dedication, knowledge, and effort needed to get good, on a level that FAR exceed this sim.

 

So please, some of you need to get off their high horses , and shouldn't underestimate or look down upon other genres.

 

Pretty much any game gets "complex" when you get deep enough into it especially if it's a PvP game. When you start looking games from OODA loop perspective the difference between really good players might be measured in milliseconds and at that point even seemingly insignificant things start to matter and hence more possibilities and opportunities open up to the players. But it doesn't change the fact that real complex games are still at whole another level as they offer much more room for learning and improvement for those people who can handle the complexity. Flying at 104th server as lone wolf is still a mere scratch of the surface of what flight sims of modern fighters can offer.

 

I really liked Maverics post. I like to challenge myself and get better at stuff I do. My score matters to me but even more the way I attained it. I don't enjoy shooting down vastly less skilled players (or AI) as that's just work with no reward ie. seeing improvement in my skills. Nor do I highly appreciate shooting down better pilots due to stumbling into an advantageous position without a clue how it happened or how I can repeat that. Then again I feel good despite getting thoroughly owned by superior tactics, flying and cunning if I have the change to see and undertand why it happened as it will improve my own game. I once attended a "ninjutsu" (can't remember the proper name of the ryuha but it was supposed to be ninja stuff) martial arts seminar where the teacher said that you don't come to dojo to show off how good you are or how much you know but to steal other peoples techniques. I think that is a really good mindset for people who want to be really good and not just appear like that to people who don't understand.

 

I think what new players need is better idea of what it takes to get better at PvP flight simming as I can see lot's of new players stuck at the slightly better than noob level as they can't figure out how to get better on their own which is understandable as very few people can. One of the essential things is someone who knows the way and is able to show it and real people to practice against. Simply flying on a public server is bad as a practice as it consists more of flying than fighting. In a proper practice session you can concentrate on the stuff that you need practice on in a environment that suits your skill level, you can skip the long distance flying part and you can analyze and debrief after engagement which is essential. This means we need lots of more experienced players to help the new ones. I know from experience that it will drastically reduce the apprehension of getting into PvP servers.

 

I'm glad that Ace of Harts started his thread of advice seeking in order to get to the top of the score boards in few months. I'm even more glad that after learning the truth he decided to stick with flight sims instead of seeking something that provides quicker rewards. I think that thread has lots of essential advice and myth busting that new simmers should learn first thing about their prospective hobby.

[104th_Maverick]

i truely do not understand where this alledged "i am so great" attitude of mine would be coming from.

 

I think it might be the signature , combined with my unhealthy obsession with statistics (please do NOT bring back the stats page!) that makes some people think , that i think i'm "awesome".

 

That and how often you used too talk in game and you pretty much nailed it ;)

 

Glad we got this straighted out, looking forward to watching your progress!

[Buckeye]

I'm glad that Ace of Harts started his thread of advice seeking in order to get to the top of the score boards in few months. I'm even more glad that after learning the truth he decided to stick with flight sims instead of seeking something that provides quicker rewards. I think that thread has lots of essential advice and myth busting that new simmers should learn first thing about their prospective hobby.

 

 

Yeah man, starting that thread was a life saver for me and I hope others can utilize it as well. Unfortunately I moved and haven't had internet for over a month (long story of issues with AT&T and the power company) so I haven't been able to keep it updated and seek more advice like I would like to. Trust me that the first thing I'll be doing when I get internet back is posting some TacView files up looking for some more critiquing, haha. I think I am making decent progress, but I've felt myself level off a lot since I haven't been able to reach out to the veteran pilots to point me in the right direction and give me feedback. Can't wait to get back on that accelerated learning curve.