July 2014 Update #1

[felthat]

I supposed to get 3 planes, now im gettin none. Im fine with that if i would be able to fly DCSW Mustang in DCS IIWW

[Stratos]

This is no good, no way you can say is good. If I understood correctly paying 40$ I will get the Mustang (I already have that one), the Dora and the map right?? Why I want another P-51? I already have it, and please don't say "sell it" cause no one will get it for more than 5$. I passed from getting all the planes to get only one new plane (I don' care about) and the tiny map. Man this really sucks. Wish we can select our wanted planes, not the ones ED want to give to us. :(

Edited July 8, 2014 by Stratos

[Kuky]

I have no time to read all the comments so I will just say 2 things:

 

1. restructured values are still very good value for money, and I am not feeling like something was taken away from me (and reason for this is only because I was a backer only to support developers and I am not interested in WWII aircraft), however... now to my point #2:

 

2. this has changed my mind on pre-purchasing, I won't be doing this any more, as time has shown almost always things do not end up as promised.

[empeck]

I backed 20$ to get 4 aircraft, but more specifically to get the Dora. I don't care about the P-51 and it was not a part of my reward so I don't understand why it is now. If I wanted the P-51 I would have bought it when it was on sale for 10$...

 

I'd much rather have my promised Dora or my money refunded.

 

And just a heads up, promising something, then going back on your word when it's inconvenient for you, is not how you retain loyal customers.

 

+1

 

I will be much more careful with spending my money on DCS products in the future.

[DD_Crash]

To be honest I cant see the point of giving the P-51 to people who already have it. I backed at the $60 level and I am not interested in Alpha testing.

[Azref]

I've been carefully following this thread and have to say am very disappointed in the majority of replies so far.

 

What people seem to fail to grasp is the huge cost of developing a single aircraft let alone a map and four individual aircraft with vast performance differences.

 

I've lost out on some rewards, mainly printed items, however I don't see how ED could have kept to the original rewards promised by Ilya, and kept DCS WW2 financialy viable.

 

Wags has done his best to please as many people as possible, no doubt with quite a few constraints on what he can give to backers at certain pledge levels. If you feel cheated out of a reward, personally i think you are insane to believe ED can deliver 5 DCS quality aircraft for just $40.

[Kuky]

I've been carefully following this thread and have to say am very disappointed in the majority of replies so far.

 

What people seem to fail to grasp is the huge cost of developing a single aircraft let alone a map and four individual aircraft with vast performance differences.

 

I've lost out on some rewards, mainly printed items, however I don't see how ED could have kept to the original rewards promised by Ilya, and kept DCS WW2 financialy viable.

 

Wags has done his best to please as many people as possible, no doubt with quite a few constraints on what he can give to backers at certain pledge levels. If you feel cheated out of a reward, personally i think you are insane to believe ED can deliver 5 DCS quality aircraft for just $40.

 

Let me try to answer that for you:

 

- People are asked to pay money for a product and they are promised something, depending how much you want to pay, this is almost like a contract, so both sides need to follow it. The user/buyer however pays the money upfront... and now has to wait... in mean time things change and the other side wants to change their part of the deal.

 

Now where would we be if this becomes a common thing?

 

Why is it alright for one side to not deliver on their promise? the user cannot back up from their payment now can they? So why should the seller be able to change their part of the deal?

 

All I'm saying is, if you promise something, you really should keep your word, if not the TRUST from people will be gone, and that is not a good thing... it is very hard to earn someone's trust again once its lost.

 

And your last quote... that we are crazy to believe ED can deliver... geee.... what a way to put it... so we are to blame for believing? And the person that's in this business and makes such promises (that should know what they are promising is not viable) is not crazy?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Kuky

[TaliG]

I have a strong feeling that tomorrow or the day after, the ''strong winds'' will calm down somehow...

If not, then I can definitely foresee most of the ''strong trees'' getting uprooted violently and only small new ''plants'' remain within this tiny ''forest''... :tomato:

[tobaschi]

Wags has done his best to please as many people as possible, no doubt with quite a few constraints on what he can give to backers at certain pledge levels. If you feel cheated out of a reward, personally i think you are insane to believe ED can deliver 5 DCS quality aircraft for just $40.

 

insane? are you joking me ?? why don't you send me 50$ via paypal if you care a shit about your money?

 

you will get a free Dora and free Mustang Key in reverse lol

[jaydee]

So I paid for

 

Everything

at the $40 level,

plus

a hard copy of the game’s air combat strategy and tactics manual, and

spiral-bound

copies of

complete

aircraft manuals for

two

flyable aircraft in the game.

 

And now I'm not getting that?

 

Not happy at all. It's not financially attainable for you to meet the backer rewards system? You shouldn't have allowed RRG to go ahead with the Kickstarter then. Not happy one bit.

:furious:

Go to Steam or EB games with those demands and see what you get for $40...

Here is how I see it...The only chance for DCS WW2 to survive now is HERE.. I want DCS WW2 to Survive.

I really don't want to post this next statement but I feel I have to ,to answer your "Gripe".

I put more than $500 dollars into KS...I suspected Luthier would "Balls it up" and he did.

So what are "We" left with ?

INMHO,the very LAST attempt at anyone(in their "Commercial" right mind) trying to Produce and Sell a WW2 Sim.

This is not a time to be Demanding any thing....I don't hold anyone to my KS Pledge...KS Died with Luthier. I don't want tee-shirts,Spiral Bound anything.

I just want DCS WW2 to Survive.

[Kuky]

So, you see a pattern here?

 

DCS MiG-21Bis fundraiser and now DCS WWII fundraiser... both promised a lot, and both initiators gave up and just went away... not cool... and both times someone else had to step in and rescue the project.

 

PS: 3 posts in this thread from me... I better stop :D

[ishtmail]

I've been carefully following this thread and have to say am very disappointed in the majority of replies so far.

 

What people seem to fail to grasp is the huge cost of developing a single aircraft let alone a map and four individual aircraft with vast performance differences.

 

I've lost out on some rewards, mainly printed items, however I don't see how ED could have kept to the original rewards promised by Ilya, and kept DCS WW2 financialy viable.

 

Wags has done his best to please as many people as possible, no doubt with quite a few constraints on what he can give to backers at certain pledge levels. If you feel cheated out of a reward, personally i think you are insane to believe ED can deliver 5 DCS quality aircraft for just $40.

 

You seem to think that the 2500 backers that pledged during Kickstarter are it, that that's the whole fanbase that will ever buy these airplanes.

 

That of course is silly. The 2500 backers haven't even payed for a single airplane development.

 

Eagle Dynamics aren't stupid. They know that they need to sell at least 5.000-10.000 licences OF EACH SEPARATE AIRPLANE to make that module financially viable. With five airplanes (P51D should already be profitable by now for ED), that's 25.000 to 50.000 licences, so at least 10x as much money and purchases as the backers provided.

 

 

What I'm saying is that honoring Kickstarter pledges is not even close to being financially unviable, because KS backers are peanuts compared to the whole potential market for DCS:WW2 airplanes.

 

 

Furthermore, any and all such math about 'viability' is based on a simple, but completely false premise: that KS backers, if they don't get these airplanes the way they were supposed to, will simply BUY all the modules.

 

That's quite an assumption. Many people who contributed to the KS campaign, and will now get less than what they pledged for, will be aggravated, disappointed at ED and DCS, and it's highly unlikely ED will be able to keep all of them as loyal customers.

 

 

Thinking that if you don't give me my pledged fleet, that I will just outright buy it, is the same false thinking that music industry has about piracy (that if pirates were unable to pirate music, that they would simply buy all of it). This theory has been disproven several times over.

[Azref]

Let me try to answer that for you:

 

- People are asked to pay money for a product and they are promised something, depending how much you want to pay, this is almost like a contract, so both sides need to follow it. The user/buyer however pays the money upfront... and now has to wait... in mean time things change and the other side wants to change their part of the deal.

 

Now where would we be if this becomes a common thing?

 

Why is it alright for one side to not deliver on their promise? the user cannot back up from their payment now can they? So why should the seller be able to change their part of the deal?

 

All I'm saying is, if you promise something, you really should keep your word, if not the TRUST from people will be gone, and that is not a good thing... it is very hard to earn someone's trust again once its lost.

 

And your last quote... that we are crazy to believe ED can deliver... geee.... what a way to put it... so we are to blame for believing? And the person that's in this business and makes such promises (that should know what they are promising is not viable) is not crazy?

 

Ok Kuky last i checked it was Luthier running the KS not ED, and since then he has been removed from the project.

 

ED are simply trying to clean up the mess that he left, in fact the KS campaign in general was a huge mess throughout. Face the fact that Luthier promised more than he could deliver when it came to backer rewards.

 

I pledged over $150 towards the project during KS, and as such feel fine with what i'm getting in Wags update. If however you feel cheated for pledging $40 and not getting all the WW2 aircraft i think you need to open your eyes and look at other KS projects. Not ONE other KS project I know about has promised as many rewards for so little investment.

[upupandaway]

... , this is almost like a contract, ...

 

It is exactly like a contract.

It made me feel itchy every time a read people talk about "promises" before and after the "crash". They simply downplay the seriousness of this issue. It is explicitly not a verbal agreement between friends.

I am not saying this to point at ED and ask anything from them. Generally, I just want to say that my trust has been damaged to the point where I am not going to support such projects up front for quite a while.

Edited July 8, 2014 by upupandaway

[Kuky]

Azref, I pledged $100, but that doesn't change anything. Its still not right to change your part of the deal but not allow me to then also change my part of the deal... its a matter of principle, that's all there is to it.

 

PS: I feel the same upupandaway

[ralfidude]

Well gentleman.

 

I hope you learned a valuable lesson here. Do not pre-purchase anymore. News are always exciting about a new product in development and unfortunately we usually don't get what's promised and peoples hearts get shattered. This is true for a lot of games and such. I learned this a while ago, Elite Dangerous being the very last pre purchase I have placed and will ever place (but I'm very happy with it, fortunately).

 

That said good luck with the project gents as it moves towards the final moments.

 

 

PS: So people who have pledged cannot pull out their money either?

[Kuky]

Well gentleman.

 

I hope you learned a valuable lesson here. Do not pre-purchase anymore. News are always exciting about a new product in development and unfortunately we usually don't get what's promised and peoples hearts get shattered. This is true for a lot of games and such. I learned this a while ago, Elite Dangerous being the very last pre purchase I have placed and will ever place (but I'm very happy with it, fortunately).

 

That said good luck with the project gents as it moves towards the final moments.

 

 

PS: So people who have pledged cannot pull out their money either?

 

that sums it up nicely... I'm moving on now :pilotfly:

[ishtmail]

I still believe in crowdfunding, being part of several successful crowdfunding projects that I believe will manage to fulfill all the promises (Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen come readily to mind).

 

I also believe in DCS:WW2 and am absolutely thrilled that ED is continuing on the project. And if ED right now gave me an option to raise my pledge from $80 to $140, I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

 

However, how ED is addressing backers (and specifically those with lower tier pledges), giving them the obviously unwanted P51D module serials instead of giving them at least one new airplane, that's not cool. The first flyable (at $20) should be either one of the new planes, or ED should let people choose which plane they want (even if that means they'll wait for it for over a year).

[ralfidude]

that sums it up nicely... I'm moving on now :pilotfly:

 

[Flagrum]

Let me try to answer that for you:

 

- People are asked to pay money for a product and they are promised something, depending how much you want to pay, this is almost like a contract, so both sides need to follow it. The user/buyer however pays the money upfront... and now has to wait... in mean time things change and the other side wants to change their part of the deal.

 

Now where would we be if this becomes a common thing?

 

Why is it alright for one side to not deliver on their promise? the user cannot back up from their payment now can they? So why should the seller be able to change their part of the deal?

 

All I'm saying is, if you promise something, you really should keep your word, if not the TRUST from people will be gone, and that is not a good thing... it is very hard to earn someone's trust again once its lost.

 

And your last quote... that we are crazy to believe ED can deliver... geee.... what a way to put it... so we are to blame for believing? And the person that's in this business and makes such promises (that should know what they are promising is not viable) is not crazy?

The thing is, the "person that's in this business and makes such promises" (that should keep his word, etc.) ... is not involved in this project any more. What is left is ED and us ...

[Cowboy10uk]

If you feel cheated out of a reward, personally i think you are insane to believe ED can deliver 5 DCS quality aircraft for just $40.

 

I don't think anyone here expects ED to honour RRGs offer of 6 DCS fidelity aircraft for $40, you're right that was overly generous. However what we are asking for is the chance to choose which 2 licenses we get.

 

The majority of us already own the P51 hence the whole point in not pledging at a level to get it, another licence is a complete waste of time. That leaves my $40 pledge paying for the Dora, which I can pick up cheaper just by pre ordering here, ( granted only by 1 cent, but it is still cheaper )

 

There is also the issue, that ED didn't inform us of the plans to make these changes prior to the Dora going on sale, so for those of us who wanted to get that aircraft in game, there's a good chance were ordered as soon as it came online. It was only 6 hrs after the Dora came on sale did ED turn round and state the pre order wasn't for dcs WW2 backers, yet no indication of that was on the product page.

 

So now I have 2 licenses I don't need. THAT is why I'm bloody well annoyed.

 

All we are asking for is the chance to choose which aircraft we get, if all are going to be produced, and since the higher backers will still be getting them, then they will need to be. ALL aircraft retail for the same price, then what's the issue with letting us choose our aircraft.

 

The only difference will be the amount of time we need to wait for them, and that is our choice to make.

 

I'm hoping ED will look at these posts, at maybe choose to think again about these rewards, we are not asking them for anything else, we are not asking them to give away any more licenses. Just allow us to be able to choose 2 aircraft from our pledge list.

 

Cowboy10uk

[upupandaway]

I'm hoping ED will look at these posts, at maybe choose to think again about these rewards, we are not asking them for anything else, we are not asking them to give away any more licenses. Just allow us to be able to choose 2 aircraft from our pledge list.

 

Cowboy10uk

 

It would be nice to have an update on their decision in the near future. Wags initially said they might have something to share in the July newsletter, but that didn´t happen. I guess it will be before Aug 5th anyway, since that´s when the keys for backers will have to be issued at the latest...

 

EDIT: OMG, fail. They posted it just last night :doh: I thought this was still the June update-thread...

Edited July 8, 2014 by upupandaway

[Flagrum]

So now I have 2 licenses I don't need. THAT is why I'm bloody well annoyed.

Well, you backed DCS: WWII to (also) get the Dora. Then you see the Dora for pre-purchase and think ... what exactly? "Hell, yeah, I buy it ... (because I totaly forgot about backing the project)" Or more like "Hell yeah, I buy it ... because maybe things change and I don't exactly know what happens with DCS WWII - so I better get it now, better to have the not-yet-released aircraft in my pocket than having it to buy later if DCS WWII fails."

 

Sorry, I don't get it.

 

 

But I agree with the uselessness of the P-51D reward and that a choice would be the best solution - for us backers.

[ishtmail]

Here's a quick math:

 

P51D module = $30

New DCS modules = $50, but prepurchase reduced to $40 (like the Dora is right now).

 

Difference = $10.

 

If ED were to give the 2500 backers the option to choose the first airplane as something different (so, instead of P51D, people would select the Spit or the BF109, because most already have the P51D), that means $25.000 "loss" for Eagle Dynamics.

 

25 grand is nothing. A single module costs anywhere from 200k and up to develop.

The gain of happy customers that would finally be happy with their purchases, if we were allowed to CHOOSE the first airplane, however, is priceless.

Edited July 8, 2014 by ishtmail

[ishtmail]

Well, you backed DCS: WWII to (also) get the Dora. Then you see the Dora for pre-purchase and think ... what exactly? "Hell, yeah, I buy it ... (because I totaly forgot about backing the project)" Or more like "Hell yeah, I buy it ... because maybe things change and I don't exactly know what happens with DCS WWII - so I better get it now, better to have the not-yet-released aircraft in my pocket than having it to buy later if DCS WWII fails."

 

Sorry, I don't get it.

 

 

But I agree with the uselessness of the P-51D reward and that a choice would be the best solution - for us backers.

 

Um... Until this post by Wags, DCS:WW2 was still a separate game. Backing at $40 level meant you got Dora for DCS:WW2 (whenever it was released, so maybe next year, maybe in 2 years), it did NOT give you Dora for DCS:World (available in August) though.

 

It was with this last post by Wags that DCS:WW2 is no longer separate from DCS:World.