July 2014 Update #1

[Sceptre]

I think the financial impact on ED of allowing everyone to choose their planes would be too great. They would not have taken a decision like that lightly.

 

We were all offered a deal that was too good to be true by a 3rd party. We paid and now that 3rd party is gone. The money was not swindled but spent on development.

 

That project failed. ED is completely entitiled to shut that forum down and walk away no obligation. Your beef is with RRG. Not ED.

 

ED is trying to placate the angry masses by offering us a compromise. You can either accept it for what it is, and be thankful to them for trying, or walk away yourself and pursue RRG for loss/damages. For the equivalent of a night out with friends, I gladly accept and support EDs decision. Especially since almost all of us are getting some return on our failed investment and perhaps more importantly, the project continues.

 

Remember, we took this risk on when we crowdfunded. Time to cut our losses and move on.

 

+1

[ishtmail]

I think the financial impact on ED of allowing everyone to choose their planes would be too great. They would not have taken a decision like that lightly.

 

Please elaborate how this would be too great of a financial impact?

 

1. The infrastructure for selecting rewards on the website is already made. Tweak it to correspond with the new reward tiers. An hour work at the most.

 

2. Modules are priced the same: $50 full price (or $40 reduced prepurchase price, as for the Dora right now).

The only exception is the Mustang at $30 (a $10 difference), which would accumulate to 25.000 dollars total 'impact'. Considering the price of development of a full DCS module (200.000+ dollars), this is peanuts. And considering how many backers would be happy and would forever remain loyal customers, ED would be nuts NOT to give us a choice.

 

3. There are only 2500 backers that need to have this choice. This is peanuts. The actual sales that ED needs to make these modules financially viable is 10.000+ PER AIRPLANE.

 

4. The only financial impact that COULD happen is if ED assumes everyone would buy all the modules, if we can't get them as pledge rewards. That's quite an assumption.

[Narushima]

Let's do some math, shall we?

 

Let's say a person backed 30$, he was promised 5 planes but he really wanted a Spitfire and a P-47.

Now all he gets is a P-51, which he has no interest in having, and a map he was promised would be free any way.

 

He's pissed off, and wants nothing to do with ED. He sells his 30$ reward (which is identical to the 20$ one, go figure...) for 30$, and never buys another thing from ED ever again. ED has now lost 1 customer who will never buy anything from them, and 1 customer who has bought the map and the P-51 from him (assuming full prices, a total loss of profit in the range of 60 to 80$, minus the backer's pledge money). As we can see, EDs greed in this case did not save them any money, but in fact cost them some future profits.

[Sceptre]

Please elaborate how this would be too great of a financial impact?

 

1. The infrastructure for selecting rewards on the website is already made. Tweak it to correspond with the new reward tiers. An hour work at the most.

 

2. Modules are priced the same: $50 full price (or $40 reduced prepurchase price, as for the Dora right now).

The only exception is the Mustang at $30 (a $10 difference), which would accumulate to 25.000 dollars total 'impact'. Considering the price of development of a full DCS module (200.000+ dollars), this is peanuts. And considering how many backers would be happy and would forever remain loyal customers, ED would be nuts NOT to give us a choice.

 

3. There are only 2500 backers that need to have this choice. This is peanuts. The actual sales that ED needs to make these modules financially viable is 10.000+ PER AIRPLANE.

 

4. The only financial impact that COULD happen is if ED assumes everyone would buy all the modules, if we can't get them as pledge rewards. That's quite an assumption.

 

how do you know what's financially viable, when you have no idea of the cost of developing a DCS module?

[Dogz]

What I think would be reasonable for backers and also actually profitable for ED in the long run, is providing at least some kind of wanted planes to all backers.

 

By this time I think everybody can cope with going without the physical extras, as producing and providing those would add actual cost to the project. Giving out digital copies of planes on the other hand does not add any cost to the project, even if it means less income from sales at first. But it creates happy customers that have already put some money in this project and would most probably continue buying new planes and modules.

So I would give out at least some kind of plane for every backer. Remember, originally even $1 backer was promised 3 new planes.

 

$1 - $19: One aircraft instead of 3 promised one. I guess for these could force feed even the over saturated P-51.

$20 - $39: Can choose freely one aircraft.

$40 - $59: Can choose freely two aircrafts.

$60 - $79: Can choose freely three aircrafts.

$80 - $99: Can choose freely four aircrafts.

$100 - $119: Can choose freely five aircrafts.

$120 - above: Get all 6 promised aircrafts.

 

Then can add all this bronze-silver-golden-diamond mentioning and all that extra stuff on top of those as you wish, but at least every backer would get some kind of aircraft, which really was the point of backing, even if most people would get just 1/3 of the planes that they were promised originally. Most probably would buy other planes, too, and bring more money.

 

Overall, means at least some value for all backers and means more money from loyal customers in the long run. It does not cost anything extra to do that for ED, only smaller sales at first. And the amount of total money involved (amount of backers) compared to the whole market that will be buying these planes is small. So the general feeling in the community about how ED is treating it's customers and funders could have significantly bigger financial impact than trying to optimize your income on a small numbers of backers.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Dogz

[NineLine]

It seems that I paid $ 20 for the plane, which I already have. I feel cheated.

 

You get Normandy as well.

[Narushima]

What I think would be reasonable for backers and also actually profitable for ED in the long run, is providing at least some kind of wanted planes to all backers.

 

By this time I think everybody can cope with going without the physical extras, as producing and providing those would add actual cost to the project. Giving out digital copies of planes on the other hand does not add any cost to the project, even if it means less income from sales at first. But it creates happy customers that have already put some money in this project and would most probably continue buying new planes and modules.

So I would give out at least some kind of plane for every backer. Remember, originally even $1 backer was promised 3 new planes.

 

$1 - $19: One aircraft instead of 3 promised one. I guess for these could force feed even the over saturated P-51.

$20 - $39: Can choose freely one aircraft.

$40 - $59: Can choose freely two aircrafts.

$60 - $79: Can choose freely three aircrafts.

$80 - $99: Can choose freely four aircrafts.

$100 - $119: Can choose freely five aircrafts.

$120 - above: Get all 6 promised aircrafts.

 

Then can add all this bronze-silver-golden-diamond mentioning and all that extra stuff on top of those as you wish, but at least every backer would get some kind of aircraft, which really was the point of backing, even if most people would get just 1/3 of the planes that they were promised originally. Most probably would buy other planes, too, and bring more money.

 

Overall, means at least some value for all backers and means more money from loyal customers in the long run. It does not cost anything extra to do that for ED, only smaller sales at first. And the amount of total money involved (amount of backers) compared to the whole market that will be buying these planes is small. So the general feeling in the community about how ED is treating it's customers and funders could have significantly bigger financial impact than trying to optimize your income on a small numbers of backers.

 

Aye, that sound good. Especially for those that backed less than 20$, which now get absolutely nothing of value. The whole name in the manual thing is just a slap in the face. Might as well call that part of the manual "suckers that we've scammed".

[NineLine]

how do you know what's financially viable, when you have no idea of the cost of developing a DCS module?

 

We have a rough idea as 150,000 went to the 109 for part of its development... so 150,000 + per aircraft...

[upupandaway]

That project failed. ED is completely entitiled to shut that forum down and walk away no obligation. Your beef is with RRG. Not ED.

 

Agree. Sueing RRG wouldn´t yield any benefit, financial or otherwise, for anyone.

It seems to me that an upgrade system for certain items would perhaps be an attractive option for many people here and might further help with monetization. Just a thought... I´d pay another 20$ to get into the Normandy alpha.

Edited July 8, 2014 by upupandaway

[NineLine]

So I would give out at least some kind of plane for every backer. Remember, originally even $1 backer was promised 3 new planes.

 

Very well, invest 150,000+ into development of a module for DCS and feel free to give it to some people for $1.

 

There has been a lot of good feedback in this thread guys... just keep it constructive. ED does listen contrary to common beliefs...

[Silver_Dragon]

Unfortunately, and seeing the big picture. The Backers, bet, lost and over, touches us dance with the ugliest. Next time, we'll have to think more coolly things before we launch into the pool.

[ishtmail]

how do you know what's financially viable, when you have no idea of the cost of developing a DCS module?

 

Cost of development of one module has been estimated at 200.000 dollars and more. This is a low estimate (I'd say 300.000 is more realistic).

 

This means that ED needs to sell AT LEAST 5.000 copies of one single plane to break even. Since the 200k estimate was low, ED actually needs to sell AT LEAST 10.000 copies of a single plane to make it work.

 

There are only 2.500 backers of DCS:WW2. Our impact on the financial viability of this project is minimal. The bulk of income from these planes will come from full price sales.

Even more than that, we're only talking about a $10 price difference ($30 P51D versus $40 Dora), which means the 'loss' is only 25.000 dollars (but you can't call it a loss, because you can't assume that people will buy the new modules if ED sticks them with the P51D). So, the 'loss' is less than 1/10th of the cost of developing a full module.

 

Minimal 'loss', but the gain of loyal customers is priceless. I don't understand why you don't see that.

 

 

Instead, you're proposing that ED sticks it to us, and gives us a serial for a module we already own. How many of the 2500 backers will they piss off that way? How many loyal customers will they lose? How much future income will be lost because of that?

 

 

25.000 dollars lost now is 100.000 dollars gained over the next two years.

[blackgold]

Honestly, to me the primary complaint here is "where are all of my free planes. I was promised free planes!" It was never financially viable. I think some people backed this just to get a lot of free DCS planes, knowing how much they normally cost. This new model is fair when it comes to money. I'm just glad the project is continuing. A real shame is the failure of the module.

[ishtmail]

Honestly, to me the primary complaint here is "where are all of my free planes. I was promised free planes!" It was never financially viable. I think some people backed this just to get a lot of free DCS planes, knowing how much they normally cost. This new model is fair when it comes to money. I'm just glad the project is continuing. A real shame is the failure of the module.

 

You're being insulting.

 

This is not about free planes. This is about being able to CHOOSE which planes we get, instead of getting stuck with the one plane we all already own.

[chaos]

Greed? Greed???!!! The margins are razor-thin I expect. This is a niche-industry and every dollar spent has to be accounted for. That is doing business responsibly and vital if you want this company to survive or, heaven forbid, prosper!

 

I'm sorry but ED doesn't owe us anything. I'm not an ED apologist but the whining that's been going on for quite a few pages now is just ridiculous and undeserved. I'm a KS backer too... I pledged enough to scoop up all of the planes that were on offer... Didn't work out... Oh well... That is the risk of crowd funding (yes, I also own the P51 module already). Get over it.

 

ED has to do what is best for them and it appears they're doing just that. Well done, ED.

[ishtmail]

ED has to do what is best for them and it appears they're doing just that. Well done, ED.

 

Yes, I suppose it's in ED's best interest to alienate loyal customers.

[Narushima]

And consumers have to do what's best for them. You know, there's such a thing as consumer rights.

 

ED knew what they were doing when they entered into this. They gambled and they lost. But apparently, we have to pay for it. Apparently, it's the consumer that's at fault here. We were stupid to trust RRG and ED. It's all our fault. Of course, we have to look out for poor ED's profits. We should all just bend over and take it, huh?

[NineLine]

Guys... please dont waste your energy on fighting, the ability to swap planes is reasonable... so dont make people feel bad for requesting it... it doesnt hurt to ask. Lets all respect each other a little more than that... we are all here for the same reason... to crash WWII aircraft on take off....

[NineLine]

Yes, I suppose it's in ED's best interest to alienate loyal customers.

 

Please stop with comments like this... they are not constructive... you have shared your opinion on how you think things can be improved... thats enough.. I dont want to get all moderator up in here...

[blackgold]

You're being insulting.

 

This is not about free planes. This is about being able to CHOOSE which planes we get, instead of getting stuck with the one plane we all already own.

 

I wasn't specifically referring to you. They're giving out keys based on the development schedule of the aircraft. It may be too complicated to offer more choice in this mess. But your key(s) still have value. Consider trading or selling your key(s) and buy what you really want when the modules in question become available. It's not ideal but your keys still have value even if you don't want them. ED is doing you a huge favor by completing the project. Otherwise you'd be SOL.

[tobaschi]

it's not like ED didnt has benefit in a big way from the pledges that were done on kickstarter, they got trained new developers and content that were build during the last months

 

it's the damn _MINIMUM_ to give backers at least the choice to select which plane they wanna get and not give them the retarded P51 which they already have in two versions.

[Dogz]

Very well, invest 150,000+ into development of a module for DCS and feel free to give it to some people for $1.

 

There has been a lot of good feedback in this thread guys... just keep it constructive. ED does listen contrary to common beliefs...

 

 

Well, this person, who also invested $1 towards the development, was originally promised 3 planes. To say to him that you get nothing now is not really fair either. Could at least give one plane, even an over saturated P-51 one that would not sell much any more or that the backer could already have or if he does not have it, gets as an apetizer to build the desire to buy other planes. There were in total about 300 below-$20 backers - certainly not a big loss for ED anyway.

 

Now if this below-$20 backer gets nothing, he certainly feels cheated and might not want to give any more money to ED and spread the word among his friends to stay away from this developer.

[Snacko]

So @ $50 I was supposed to get:

Everything at the $10 level, plus a digital copy of all flyable aircraft in the game (this will grow with the stretch goals and possibly end up offering a huge value!)

 

and now I get:

Bronze Backer credit in manuals

DCS: P-51D Mustang and print-ready PDF manual

Normandy Map

DCS: Fw 190 D-9 Dora, Alpha access, and print-ready PDF manual

 

I already have the P-51D! Why not just let us pick our aircraft??? :mad:

 

So, basically I am just getting 1 aircraft, when I paid for them ALL? :joystick:

 

Have I missed something..

Edited July 8, 2014 by Snacko

[GhostriderC6]

Despite of all fan boy voices i don t like all this proposition

 

As I don't know the agreement of the transaction and the past links between Luthier and ED ( who knows ...) :

So I'll thanks anyone for the moment ..

 

A deal must be profitable for both side and Ed is a company, a small one but a compagny not a charity association .

So business is business even in simulation world

They took back the project (payed with my support) expecting a profit (it's absolutely normal)

 

Juste the fact

 

for 40 $

 

1/ P51 : good thing for newbess but very bad for me : i m an old supporter of ED so i already have this plane in my shop so ... thx for this useless present.

Useless and not so expensive for ED (an old aircraft already profitable .....).

And please don't suggest me to offer this license .. in the best way it is a joke in bad way a lack of respect for a customer

 

2/ English manual printing : i am french so nice on my desk but not more ....

3/ The normandy map (the minimum ....) , does it mean that all future maps for DCS won't be free like past times ?

Is this a business model changement ?

4/ Dora : that s a good news i was a backer for it so ...

5 / English manual see note 3

 

So at the end

i will not recieve the promised package, ok , that the game in kickstart project and promises were maybe too beautiful to be real .

But in this case the kickstar doesn't failled and a company has bought the project (maybe for nothing but this isn't the question in this post )

And as a customer i don't care.

 

And in this situation the minimum for the initial backer and old ED supportes ll be to just give the choice to choose the two aircraft we want

 

If not the "best for Ed" is not the best for old ED supporters...

 

So for me this update is a bad news , a bad message for olds supporters

 

 

sorry for my poor english level

[Snacko]

Exactly! At least let us pick our own 2 aircraft!

 

I'll only get 1 since I already have the p51..