Most frustrating MP session to date.

[ShuRugal]

So, a little background:

 

I've been getting a feel for head-to-head multiplayer the last few weeks flying on the 104th. So far my experience has been up and down, but generally positive. I have concluded that I don't care even a little bit for "F-15 vs F-15 at 30k feet; Will your missile reach him before his reaches you?" so I've been focusing more on the Mig-29S and the SU-27. Of the two, I like the way the Mig handles and the R77 well enough that it's my usual pick, but I can't stand the craptastic radar set, and the fuel capacity always disappoints. I would fly the SU-27 all the time, if only it could carry the R77.

 

So far, I've developed a basic strategy that works more or less: run through the mountains into the AO for enemy ground attacks, harass until fighter shows up, then use terrain to force him in close enough for my passives to pick him up while he's looking the wrong way.

 

I've been greatly enjoying this style of gameplay, even though I end up dead as often as i make the other guy dead. So far i've been able to maintain a 1:1 kill/death ratio most nights.

 

Tonight, however, was absolutely ****ing miserable. I wanted to throw my laptop by the time I was done, and I still want my two hours back.

 

Server population was fairly light tonight, one to two F-15s on blue, handful of A-10s, one KA. Red had two or three ground attacks, and one or two F-15s. I took a Red 27 and proceeded to thread mountains.

 

Almost immediately upon arriving in the AO, blue F-15 shows up on my RWR, hard on my six, so close he'd've smelled it if i shit. I come hard about, lock him up, and start throwing ERs and ETs like there's no tomorrow. Well, there wasn't. He got lock right after I started shooting, and (surprise surprise) his 120 arrived first.

 

Okay, whatever, it was probably a fluke, him showing up out of nowhere like that, perfectly positioned for a kill without ever having shown up on my RWR or EOS.

 

Next sortie, it happens again. Not even out of the mountains yet, having taken a very roundabout route well off blue CAP waypoints for that mission, and nowhere near the bullseyes. Come out of a mountain and there he is, 12-o-clock, slightly high, 100% strength on my RWR. Couldn't find him with my radar or EOS though. Even zoomed in full and tried out the Mk1 eyeball, but he was too far out to be large enough for the graphics engine to feel like drawing. I spend the next two minutes weaving back and forth through every crease and fold in the terrain i can find, trying to shed missiles. No joy, I eat it without ever seeing him.

 

Every subsequent sortie that evening goes the same way. Everywhere I go, up high, down low, around the back, straight up the front, this guy is already there, in perfect firing position, and none of my sensors acknowledge his presence. Ten deaths and 0 kills later, and I'm sick of this shit.

 

And, on top of all that frustration, for the hour-ish that I had other teammates, not one of them ever bothered to get on TS. Why, for the love of god, is it so freaking hard to get people to use comms in this game? I spent twenty minutes at one point chasing one of these guys around because he couldn't be arsed to respond to 'raygun' when i locked up his jammer. Asked why he's not on TS so we can communicate better and not do that shit, and it's just "Oh, that would be a good idea huh.", but he never bothered to follow through with it. This bullcrap is why we need built-in voice comms. I swear I'm just going to start shooting missiles at every jammer I see, unless they respond to a TS raygun call.

 

Also, i've been kind of put off by this before, but never as worked up about it as I am right now: Why do multiplayer servers never have ground radar support for the russian birds? Do you people not realize that the russian birds are designed around the idea of using ground radar and AWACS to provide real-time situational awareness to their pilots? That without that additional SA, we are sitting ducks for F-15 drivers, unless we can sucker them into the mountains?

[otto]

I used to fly F 15 just as much as su 27 in version 1.2.3 . But since than the 120 c is just too effective and the r27 too weak and i get no satisfaction when getting a kill in the f15.

The R27 seems to me like it doesn't track at all unless you fire it well within visual range.

[Stuge]

Same guy every time? I can understand the frustration..

 

I sometimes like going all audiovisual (radar off) in the mountains with f15, that means i can spike em just before i fire my gun :D

 

Still.. i think the thing i most recommend to you is get a good night's sleep and everything's going to be ok again :)

[MauganRa84]

I know those feels bro. =(

[*Rage*]

Im not sure which mission youre talking about but I dont see the poitn in flying low all the time. Fly high, Use your radar. Get good SA. Know where the bandits are. Engage from high and then get low when things get hairy.

 

Flying the flanker at low altitudes defeats the point. If you wanna do that take the mig.

[Winfield_Gold]

I would have gone inverted and flipped him the bird

[jcbak]

I share your frustration regarding the reluctance of people to use TS.

[104th_Maverick]

without that additional SA, I am a sitting duck for F-15 drivers

 

Changed this for you as there are lots of pilots who cope very well indeed without Datalink or being on TeamSpeak with other pilots ;)

 

Sorry sir but the harsh reality is your new to air to air combat.... you have to accept your going to get your ass handed to you for a little while until you start to understand how to use your aircraft and its systems properly!

 

If you got shot down 10 times in a row and only seen the bandit once on radar.... your not quite there yet :)

 

Practice, practice, practice.... not.... anger, anger, anger!

 

S!

[FLANKERATOR]

Keep practicing AND studying, A2A can be quite challenging when it comes to PvP. Some people down here have been doing this since LOMAC!! Trust me, experience is a big factor.

 

This sim may have become more eye candy with more features, but the skills required to outfight your opponents in A2A have remained practically the same.

Just stick with PvP if you want to get better at it. Coop against AI may feel nice, but that won't help you become a better pilot.

 

TvT is the best training environment you could get as it combines both PvP and Coop against real opponents just like in RL.

Read a lot, fly a lot and watch every ACMI you can to make a lesson out of every loss.

[ShuRugal]

Im not sure which mission youre talking about but I dont see the poitn in flying low all the time. Fly high, Use your radar. Get good SA. Know where the bandits are. Engage from high and then get low when things get hairy.

 

Flying the flanker at low altitudes defeats the point. If you wanna do that take the mig.

 

 

maybe i'm doing something wrong, but flying russian jets at high altitude with radar on (flanker or fulcrum) always seems to get me shot; I never seem to pick anything up on my radar until the other guy already has missiles on the way, even when I turned out to be co-altitude with the guy and pointed straight at him.

[GGTharos]

So, a little background:

 

....

 

I have concluded that I don't care even a little bit for "F-15 vs F-15 at 30k feet;

 

Ok, so you don't like flying high. That's too bad, given that this is what every fighter in the world is built to do.

 

So far, I've developed a basic strategy that works more or less: run through the mountains into the AO for enemy ground attacks, harass until fighter shows up, then use terrain to force him in close enough for my passives to pick him up while he's looking the wrong way.

Yeah, lawn-mowers are like that until they run into someone who knows how to use that altitude to flip this silliness on its head :)

 

Almost immediately upon arriving in the AO, blue F-15 shows up on my RWR, hard on my six, so close he'd've smelled it if i shit. I come hard about, lock him up, and start throwing ERs and ETs like there's no tomorrow. Well, there wasn't. He got lock right after I started shooting, and (surprise surprise) his 120 arrived first.

Actually he may have had lock before you started shooting. How do you know he wasn't tracking you in TWS all that time?

 

No surprise at the 120 arriving first - he probably launched it first. The R-27's are airbrakes, down low they deal with so much drag that the 120 will easily out-perform them, even if you launched at the same time.

 

Okay, whatever, it was probably a fluke, ...

 

Next sortie, it happens again.

So, no fluke. He figured you out and was waiting for you.

 

Couldn't find him with my radar or EOS though. Even zoomed in full and tried out the Mk1 eyeball, but he was too far out to be large enough for the graphics engine to feel like drawing.

He was probably either too close or too high and not at all where you were looking. If he's at '100% on the RWR', and you don't know where he is, perhaps you should consider doing something other than messing around with your sensors.

 

I spend the next two minutes weaving back and forth through every crease and fold in the terrain i can find, trying to shed missiles. No joy, I eat it without ever seeing him.

That is exactly how it should be.

 

Ten deaths and 0 kills later, and I'm sick of this shit.

You got schooled :)

 

 

Why do multiplayer servers never have ground radar support for the russian birds? Do you people not realize that the russian birds are designed around the idea of using ground radar and AWACS to provide real-time situational awareness to their pilots? That without that additional SA, we are sitting ducks for F-15 drivers, unless we can sucker them into the mountains?

Because the Blue side AWACS is quite inadequate as a battle manager. So, you get to 'battle manage' yourself by having a datalink, at least, yet the other side won't be able to do any of that. So, no one gets datalink. Besides, you shouldn't be able to use it when you're off mowing lawns and sniffing dirt-trails. Line of sight etc.

 

To add to this, you're not suffering any of the issues in-game that make ground support so necessary. Gain altitude, flip on the radar, go SNP, build yourself a picture. Not stealthy enough for you? That's too bad.

[GGTharos]

The Flanker's detection range is the same as the Eagle's detection range. They'll see each other at about the same time. But that aside, if everyone is using jammers, then you need to learn to sort jammers.

 

If you're still getting shot without picking up the bandit, then yes, you are definitely doing something wrong. There are plenty of other flanker drivers who pick up their prey easily enough.

 

As for the MiG, it's radar is shorter-ranged, so there are some contests you may not want to participate in. The MiG-29 is a short-range point-defense fighter, not a 'hunter' which is how people like to use it ... and that's why your fuel/endurance seems dissapointing.

 

These aircraft are built with specific roles/missions in mind. Fly them outside of their capabilities and you will get punished for it. Usually.

 

maybe i'm doing something wrong, but flying russian jets at high altitude with radar on (flanker or fulcrum) always seems to get me shot; I never seem to pick anything up on my radar until the other guy already has missiles on the way, even when I turned out to be co-altitude with the guy and pointed straight at him.

[will-]

Just wait till everything your asking for is in working order. Or try and help sort out this mess of why AWACS EWR, certain COUNTRIES EWR work and do not work.

 

IMO they way the A/A Radar handles things is preschool. But it accomplishes what functions are need to fire a missile... Even if that means keeping a lock at 50k and having to maneuver unorodox.

 

A/G radar?? Not currently in game. But rest assured its on someone's todo list.

[secret1962]

But not being able to see enemies from distance is a known issue.. I thought the devs were aware of it ? Are they ignoring it ?

[GGTharos]

What issue?

 

Radar has a limited range, but you can pick up a head-on target 100km away. He can use ECM to mask that range, in which case you don't know how far he is. If you're mowing the lawn, then your own radar is jamming itself and reducing gain, and thus detection range (at least, that's the way it should be, and it was implemented at some point). If you're flying a MiG-29, it's even worse because its little radar doesn't see as far as a flanker or an eagle to begin with.

 

If you're not picking up a target 'at range', you're doing something wrong, or your target is doing something right. There's no known bug or issue here.

 

But not being able to see enemies from distance is a known issue.. I thought the devs were aware of it ? Are they ignoring it ?

[secret1962]

I was talking about the Graphical Engine actually. Makes me really wonder if they even care about it...

[Mustang]

Proper use of PRF also helps enormously with the 29, use HI for better detection ranges of far bandits and med for closer ones.

[GGTharos]

You mean visually, ok. That's a different challenge and there's no right solution AFAIK. On the other hand, if you believe that you can spot a plane entering WVR without knowing exactly where to look for it, I have a bridge to sell you :D

Edited July 16, 2014 by GGTharos

[diveplane]

So, a little background:

 

I've been getting a feel for head-to-head multiplayer the last few weeks flying on the 104th. So far my experience has been up and down, but generally positive. I have concluded that I don't care even a little bit for "F-15 vs F-15 at 30k feet; Will your missile reach him before his reaches you?" so I've been focusing more on the Mig-29S and the SU-27. Of the two, I like the way the Mig handles and the R77 well enough that it's my usual pick, but I can't stand the craptastic radar set, and the fuel capacity always disappoints. I would fly the SU-27 all the time, if only it could carry the R77.

 

So far, I've developed a basic strategy that works more or less: run through the mountains into the AO for enemy ground attacks, harass until fighter shows up, then use terrain to force him in close enough for my passives to pick him up while he's looking the wrong way.

 

I've been greatly enjoying this style of gameplay, even though I end up dead as often as i make the other guy dead. So far i've been able to maintain a 1:1 kill/death ratio most nights.

 

Tonight, however, was absolutely ****ing miserable. I wanted to throw my laptop by the time I was done, and I still want my two hours back.

 

Server population was fairly light tonight, one to two F-15s on blue, handful of A-10s, one KA. Red had two or three ground attacks, and one or two F-15s. I took a Red 27 and proceeded to thread mountains.

 

Almost immediately upon arriving in the AO, blue F-15 shows up on my RWR, hard on my six, so close he'd've smelled it if i shit. I come hard about, lock him up, and start throwing ERs and ETs like there's no tomorrow. Well, there wasn't. He got lock right after I started shooting, and (surprise surprise) his 120 arrived first.

 

Okay, whatever, it was probably a fluke, him showing up out of nowhere like that, perfectly positioned for a kill without ever having shown up on my RWR or EOS.

 

Next sortie, it happens again. Not even out of the mountains yet, having taken a very roundabout route well off blue CAP waypoints for that mission, and nowhere near the bullseyes. Come out of a mountain and there he is, 12-o-clock, slightly high, 100% strength on my RWR. Couldn't find him with my radar or EOS though. Even zoomed in full and tried out the Mk1 eyeball, but he was too far out to be large enough for the graphics engine to feel like drawing. I spend the next two minutes weaving back and forth through every crease and fold in the terrain i can find, trying to shed missiles. No joy, I eat it without ever seeing him.

 

Every subsequent sortie that evening goes the same way. Everywhere I go, up high, down low, around the back, straight up the front, this guy is already there, in perfect firing position, and none of my sensors acknowledge his presence. Ten deaths and 0 kills later, and I'm sick of this shit.

 

And, on top of all that frustration, for the hour-ish that I had other teammates, not one of them ever bothered to get on TS. Why, for the love of god, is it so freaking hard to get people to use comms in this game? I spent twenty minutes at one point chasing one of these guys around because he couldn't be arsed to respond to 'raygun' when i locked up his jammer. Asked why he's not on TS so we can communicate better and not do that shit, and it's just "Oh, that would be a good idea huh.", but he never bothered to follow through with it. This bullcrap is why we need built-in voice comms. I swear I'm just going to start shooting missiles at every jammer I see, unless they respond to a TS raygun call.

 

Also, i've been kind of put off by this before, but never as worked up about it as I am right now: Why do multiplayer servers never have ground radar support for the russian birds? Do you people not realize that the russian birds are designed around the idea of using ground radar and AWACS to provide real-time situational awareness to their pilots? That without that additional SA, we are sitting ducks for F-15 drivers, unless we can sucker them into the mountains?

 

 

 

mig 29 disadvantage is low loiter time in the air, the rd33 engines on the mig are massive fuel eaters.

plus theres no refuel capability on early mig 29 variants.

 

but the mig was designed as a short range fighter.

Edited July 16, 2014 by diveplane

[Mustang]

mig 29 disadvantage is low loiter time in the air, the rd33 engines on the mig are massive fuel eaters.

plus theres no refuel capability on early mig 29 variants.

 

but the mig was designed as a short range fighter.

 

True, but an answer is to fly around at 95% or slightly less during a sortie and only use mil power or afterburner in an emergency, the thrust to weight ratio of the 29 is pretty large so why not make the most of it? you'll find you can stay in the air alot longer than you realize :)

[GGTharos]

Not to mention you could fly higher *gasp* and ... put a couple of wing tanks on it *gasp!*

[SkateZilla]

remind me not to join that server, lol... Cuz It wouldnt be pretty.

[ShuRugal]

Ok, so you don't like flying high. That's too bad, given that this is what every fighter in the world is built to do.

 

No, what I don't like is to run a head-on justing match against other fighters which, under best case scenario (If i take an F-15) have identical performance characteristics. Call me silly, but in BCT they taught us that only an idiot goes into a heads-up slugfest against an equally-capable opponent, and only a dead man goes into the same against his betters. As my drill sergeant liked to say, a fair fight's a loosing fight.

 

 

Actually he may have had lock before you started shooting. How do you know he wasn't tracking you in TWS all that time?

He claimed to have shot second.

 

No surprise at the 120 arriving first - he probably launched it first. The R-27's are airbrakes, down low they deal with so much drag that the 120 will easily out-perform them, even if you launched at the same time.

 

So, don't use R-27s. got it.

 

So, no fluke. He figured you out and was waiting for you.

 

the second time, when I did exactly the same thing, sure. The other eight times when I tried a different approach each time? sometimes simultaneously with two F-15s who both were also shooting different approaches? This dude was freaking everywhere at once, knew where all of us were without having his radar on for more than two seconds at a time (I never got more than 1 RWR beep out of him each time it picked him up, until he locked me), and none of us able to find him on any kind of sensor, active or passive?

He was probably either too close or too high and not at all where you were looking. If he's at '100% on the RWR', and you don't know where he is, perhaps you should consider doing something other than messing around with your sensors.

 

like what? I just told you, in the line you quoted right there, that even looking straight at him on maximum zoom he had not yet come into my visual range. And before you ask how i know i was looking straight at him, I got a nice view of his missiles coming straight in for my face, and when I hit silk, he came out of the exact same patch of sky i was watching about ten second slater.

 

That is exactly how it should be.

 

You got schooled :)

 

I realize that you probably don't mean it this way, but after reading these two lines I am having a very hard time not interpreting your post as "haha, u sux donkey d1x!!"

 

 

Because the Blue side AWACS is quite inadequate as a battle manager. So, you get to 'battle manage' yourself by having a datalink, at least, yet the other side won't be able to do any of that. So, no one gets datalink.

 

Right, so we're taking away AIM-120s too right? since they have serious range/speed/stealth/tracking advantages the other side doesn't get?

 

And, aside from that, I usually see servers set up with RU and US jets on both teams. With that, there is no reason at all to not include the support assets that the russian planes are designed around.

 

To add to this, you're not suffering any of the issues in-game that make ground support so necessary. Gain altitude, flip on the radar, go SNP, get your plane blasted out from under you

 

fixed that for you. Also, what "in game issues" would i be suffering from that suddenly make ground support a legitimate thing to ask for (since you're dead set that it isn't otherwise)

 

The Flanker's detection range is the same as the Eagle's detection range. They'll see each other at about the same time.

assuming i know where to look. Usually I don't until I start getting RWR spiked. How do I know where to look in time for it to do some good?

 

But that aside, if everyone is using jammers, then you need to learn to sort jammers.

what does this even mean? How to identify friend from foe in a jamming environment? I know how to do that, ping them and call 'raygun'. Doesn't help much when 2/3 of the server population is too lazy for TS and not paying attention to text (or i don't have time to type it soon enough to not get shot if he turns out to be a bandit). Is there a better way to do this? If so, what?

 

If you're still getting shot without picking up the bandit, then yes, you are definitely doing something wrong. There are plenty of other flanker drivers who pick up their prey easily enough.

okay. how?

 

As for the MiG, it's radar is shorter-ranged, so there are some contests you may not want to participate in. The MiG-29 is a short-range point-defense fighter, not a 'hunter' which is how people like to use it ... and that's why your fuel/endurance seems dissapointing.

I've learned to get around that by cruising around at 90% RPM on the engines. I can make most of my ingresses without even emptying my single drop tank now.

These aircraft are built with specific roles/missions in mind. Fly them outside of their capabilities and you will get punished for it. Usually.

 

I seem to be quite good at getting punished for flying them in those capabilities, too. Of course, it could be that I have absolutely no idea what those capabilities are supposed to be: the manual is not particularly enlightening on that subject, and most MP mission design seems to be "here are fighters, go fly at other fighters", which just seems like a good way to get shot (has been for me so far, anyway).

[159th_Viper]

Where are the tracks? Idle speculation is counter-productive at best. ACMI files would be even better.

[GGTharos]

No, what I don't like is to run a head-on justing match against other fighters which, under best case scenario (If i take an F-15) have identical performance characteristics. Call me silly, but in BCT they taught us that only an idiot goes into a heads-up slugfest against an equally-capable opponent, and only a dead man goes into the same against his betters. As my drill sergeant liked to say, a fair fight's a loosing fight.

 

Sure, anyone will look to minimize their exposure. Flying low doesn't accomplish it as well as other ways. I can look into the valleys people like to hide in from great heights, and I can see right into them. I imagine others can as well.

 

He claimed to have shot second.

Ok.

 

So, don't use R-27s. got it.

Why, because you have to get closer? :)

 

the second time, when I did exactly the same thing, sure. The other eight times when I tried a different approach each time? sometimes simultaneously with two F-15s who both were also shooting different approaches? This dude was freaking everywhere at once, knew where all of us were without having his radar on for more than two seconds at a time (I never got more than 1 RWR beep out of him each time it picked him up, until he locked me), and none of us able to find him on any kind of sensor, active or passive?

Yep. And it's not that hard to do if you know how to do point-of-reference math, speed-time math ... ie. pilot math. That's right, only need to paint you once and the rest is done in one's head or at most with a reference to the HSI.

 

like what? I just told you, in the line you quoted right there, that even looking straight at him on maximum zoom he had not yet come into my visual range. And before you ask how i know i was looking straight at him, I got a nice view of his missiles coming straight in for my face, and when I hit silk, he came out of the exact same patch of sky i was watching about ten second slater.

Can't really resolve this one without a track.

 

I realize that you probably don't mean it this way, but after reading these two lines I am having a very hard time not interpreting your post as "haha, u sux donkey d1x!!"

Fair enough; fact is though we all sucked once and some of us still do (I do!). Heck, first time I played this game I jumped into a server in a Su-33, slinging R-27EAs everywhere and slaughtering peeps like crazy. I was so good. And then I exited the server, and I saw it's name was 'heaters only' ... :P (Yes, I went right back in and apologized).

 

I've been shot down by Su-25's, P-51's, and whatever else :)

 

Right, so we're taking away AIM-120s too right? since they have serious range/speed/stealth/tracking advantages the other side doesn't get?

That's the server owner's logic - and BTW, like I mentioned, you do NOT have the disadvantages that your planes should have. With the DL, you have advantages that you should NOT have.

 

As for 120's, they really don't have any serious advantages. You may have noticed people complaining that you need to get within 5nm for them to do anything useful. There's a reason for that.

 

And, aside from that, I usually see servers set up with RU and US jets on both teams. With that, there is no reason at all to not include the support assets that the russian planes are designed around.

Sure. Actually I just remembered, I believe there is a bug with the datalink that people really don't like, and this might be an additional factor.

 

fixed that for you. Also, what "in game issues" would i be suffering from that suddenly make ground support a legitimate thing to ask for (since you're dead set that it isn't otherwise)

You mean you fixed it for your ego. Plenty of people fly flankers at higher altitudes and they do just fine.

 

assuming i know where to look. Usually I don't until I start getting RWR spiked. How do I know where to look in time for it to do some good?

If you're waiting until you get spiked to turn on your radar, you simply might not have time to search the airspace in time. The closer you get, the thinner the 'slice' of air that the radar scans, and the easier it is for the bandit to slip past undetected. Add to that frantic scanning (jumping elevations without allowing the radar to complete its scan), and things go poorly.

 

what does this even mean? How to identify friend from foe in a jamming environment? I know how to do that, ping them and call 'raygun'. Doesn't help much when 2/3 of the server population is too lazy for TS and not paying attention to text (or i don't have time to type it soon enough to not get shot if he turns out to be a bandit). Is there a better way to do this? If so, what?

There really isn't a better way. It's the same for everyone.

 

okay. how?

I wish I could help you, but without knowing exactly how you fly and what you do when things start happening, I can't really tell you. All I can advise is, stop playing the sneaky game and start with straight-up BVR. Use that time to understand how your radar works, set yourself up with some SP missions with cooperative targets as well ... and always review tacviews, especially after such a thing as you described.

 

I've learned to get around that by cruising around at 90% RPM on the engines. I can make most of my ingresses without even emptying my single drop tank now.

Must be pretty short range mission then.

 

I seem to be quite good at getting punished for flying them in those capabilities, too. Of course, it could be that I have absolutely no idea what those capabilities are supposed to be: the manual is not particularly enlightening on that subject, and most MP mission design seems to be "here are fighters, go fly at other fighters", which just seems like a good way to get shot (has been for me so far, anyway).

Yep, you're right. There's no manual for BVR, very little on BFM, etc. There are threads here describing the basics of BVR - I figure you've researched and read as much as you could.

 

The catch is, just like with Art of the Kill, and Shaw's book, as detailed as all that stuff might seem - it's just scratching the surface.

 

What you need is an instructor, but you're not necessarily likely to find one. The other option is to find a buddy to practice very specific scenarios, which means you both must be like-minded ... focused and disciplined.

 

You CAN do it all on your own too, just realize that it will take a long time and you need to essentially run a battle lab for yourself.