P-51 outclassed?

[pingo]

???

 

:huh:

 

What plane are you flying? P-51 or FW?:music_whistling:

[Konrad Friedrich]

What plane are you flying? P-51 or FW?:music_whistling:

 

Both.

And I like both.

 

:thumbup:

[pingo]

Both.

And I like both.

 

:thumbup:

 

Good then, same here mostly P-51 though. To the point then. It seems that you are of the opinion that many P-51 pilots online do not have the slightest idea - or inadequate knowledge of how to df in a P-51 Are you interested in sharing your experience?:thumbup:

[Buzpilot]

I haven't flown P-51 last year, but I recall the red line in temperature was only 90 degree celcius, and I asumed this was only for civilian airshows, to keep the engine life longer, than the usual 95 degree red line for Spitfire merlin engines in wartime.

[pingo]

I haven't flown P-51 last year, but I recall the red line in temperature was only 90 degree celcius, and I asumed this was only for civilian airshows, to keep the engine life longer, than the usual 95 degree red line for Spitfire merlin engines in wartime.

 

I have read somewhere on this forum, that was the case. If I remember right it was up for discussion during beta releas. Thats how the plane is represented today.

[Konrad Friedrich]

Good then, same here mostly P-51 though. To the point then. It seems that you are of the opinion that many P-51 pilots online do not have the slightest idea - or inadequate knowledge of how to df in a P-51 Are you interested in sharing your experience?:thumbup:

 

Oh, no.

Should have been more clearly, sorry.

But I found many of the P-51 pilots online got into this 'ring-a-ring-a-rosie' attitude.

At very, very, very low altitudes (cutting the lawn with their propellers...;))

I'm pretty sure many FW guys are doing this as well...

 

And I really feared for a moment that it will get into something quite boring...

 

To be honest: my best qualification in online dogfighting comes from a 1917 Sopwith Camel... (RisoOfFlight)

Most of my dogfights with the P-51 or the FockeWulf and F-86 were fought against the DCS AI...

 

But it would be nice to share some bullets online ;)

Possibly this Saturday night?

Just send me pm.

[pingo]

Oh, no.

Should have been more clearly, sorry.

But I found many of the P-51 pilots online got into this 'ring-a-ring-a-rosie' attitude.

At very, very, very low altitudes (cutting the lawn with their propellers...;))

I'm pretty sure many FW guys are doing this as well...

 

And I really feared for a moment that it will get into something quite boring...

 

To be honest: my best qualification in online dogfighting comes from a 1917 Sopwith Camel... (RisoOfFlight)

Most of my dogfights with the P-51 or the FockeWulf and F-86 were fought against the DCS AI...

 

 

 

But it would be nice to share some bullets online ;)

Possibly this Saturday night?

Just send me pm.

 

Dang Konrad you seems all most human now and not to forget a nice person.

 

Im online every night if time permits.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

You simply did not meet your master :D

 

(Take it as a friendly jibe ;))

 

 

I met several P-51 on your server - and none if them had the slightest idea how to dogfight...

Turn and burn - 10 feet above the deck...

Pointing up at me until they stalled, spraying .50cal rounds into the sky...

Well... than crashing because loosing control...

 

Got one pilot at 3000 meters that was not that bad but he skipped off the server when I got him in front of my long nose.

 

I hope we will get some decent, gentlemen pilots on the servers who take these sim planes serious and use them as intended...

 

But really the last thing I want to see is that it get's into a 'E-Sports' event.

I was quitting RoF because of that (ok - hardly compareable to DCS).

 

 

sure, there will always be someone who shoots me down,does this mean i should blame the plane or my skills then?;)

 

but again, third day on the server, and so far, i think i got killed twice by a dora, and only because of my own mistakes...i dont see the fw dominating the p51 at all.

[outlawal2]

sure, there will always be someone who shoots me down,does this mean i should blame the plane or my skills then?;)

 

but again, third day on the server, and so far, i think i got killed twice by a dora, and only because of my own mistakes...i dont see the fw dominating the p51 at all.

 

No it is because DCS is non-historic and the planes are unfair... THAT is what you should blame it on.. (Haven't you been reading this thread?)

 

:music_whistling:

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

have been reading it, just disagree with you.no problems with either plane here.all the guys ive been talking to so far, feel the same.its the pilot who makes mistakes will lose

[rubblebeam]

No it is because DCS is non-historic and the planes are unfair... THAT is what you should blame it on.. (Haven't you been reading this thread?)

 

:music_whistling:

DCS is non historic but the planes are fair. I'd like the servers to implement more realistic numbers. At the moment i'm seeing the germans have a far superior numbers advantage. Folk will flock to the better planes, that's just the way it is, you cannot change human nature but you can limit it. Also to the guy complaining about a lack of skill from the p-51 pilots. When I was on yesterday the minority p-51s were being targeted on the runway. Its not surprising the P-51s were flying low they were not given a chance to get any altitude. Until co-op and actual missions are implemented in MP servers, unfortunately air-quake is all were going to get and that is not going to attract many single players to make to change to multi player.

[USARStarkey]

No it is because DCS is non-historic and the planes are unfair... THAT is what you should blame it on.. (Haven't you been reading this thread?)

 

:music_whistling:

 

Honestly this back and for about skill vs plane is ridiculous. Both sides are trying to push their dichotic on the other side using increasingly dichotomic arguments. Fact is both have truth to them. To a certain extent blaming your plane for every time you die is silly, but it is equally silly to insist that plane performance doesn't matter, or shouldn't. By that logic, I may as well strap into a sopwith camel and call it a day.

[Pilum]

Could not help noticing there has been a Pony boost inflation and we are now at 75" not 72" :smilewink:

 

Jokes aside, while I respect the majority of the arguments put forward for 75" boost since appropriate fuels seems to have been available at the time period the sim depicts, I can't help being a bit cynical and hear "I want all the advantages I can get when playing this sim" when I read some of the post pointing towards "historical accuracy".

 

The Me262 was brought up as an example why we should learn to live with superior performance and not talk about balance. Now IMHO the Me262 is actually a poor example because there is actually an element of balance here that makes this setup interesting to fly in a sim:

 

While the Me262 is superior in speed, it has no chance in the turn. As some of the previous posts pointed out in a very good way this can actually make for some interesting situations because it is pretty difficult to shoot down a Pony that is aware that you are there and pass after pass makes a slight jinx when you are are about to fire. So this is actually an interesting sim scenario where there is an element of balance since it's an extreme energy fighter versus an (in comparison) extreme angles fighter.

 

Now exchange that for a 75" Pony against B4&MW50 Dora and have the Pony attacking. Just how exactly will this fight become interesting? Even if we start with energy parity what can the Dora do? Climb? No Turn? No Extend? No Dive? No. Going from sea level to ceiling, exactly where is the Dora supposed to have parity or an advantage? However, as pointed out before, in the current setup one is doing better down low, the other at altitude, ergo an element of balance making this sim fun to fly.

 

The 75" Pony will simply have both the angles and energy advantage. Period. In addition, if we compare the current 67" Pony to the current Dora the small turn rate advantage the Pony has now will with 75" boost become much bigger since the added power will enable the Pony to drag it's lower wing loaded wing around quicker making turning a no contest.

 

In the context of a sim I think interesting to fly is pretty much synonymous with balance and that was the point I was trying to make in my previous post. However, if 75" is enabled as an option then by all means if what rocks your boat is to have both angles and energy advantage then enable it and go on your turkey shoot.

 

BTW: Since it seems to be so popular to have "options" then why not model a C3 & MW50 Dora as well? By the same argument, if you don't like it then you don't have to enable it.

 

For those looking for historical accuracy, it would have been better to have the numerically more prevalent Me109G6 in DCS, some with gunpods and the majority with 1.3 ata boost and no 1.4 ata Notleistung enabled. In addition, to mirror the proficiency state of the majority of late war LW pilots set the AI on "Average" and you're good to go!

[Whiplash]

sure, there will always be someone who shoots me down,does this mean i should blame the plane or my skills then?;)

 

but again, third day on the server, and so far, i think i got killed twice by a dora, and only because of my own mistakes...i dont see the fw dominating the p51 at all.

 

The only one to shoot me down in a dora was ole Hatty and he knew from comms that I was alone and had no guns. Of course the rest of the time I was flying with you. Therefore, I have come up with a better solution to all these arguments.

 

"Keep calm and make DavidRed your wingman"

 

Seriously though, it's a whole other game when you get on comms and fly with someone. Doesn't really matter what you are flying against, your best advantage will always be a good wingman. Even if you are getting your butt kicked it's still a good time because misery loves company. It's a win win. :thumbup:

 

With that said, I think the different fuel grade would be an interesting dynamic for mission builders to play with. I can think of other things I would like ED to spend resources on but who am I to direct what they work on. As much as I want to fly a 75in pony I am concerned that would be enough to offset the servers and I would never be able to fly the mustang because there won't be any available since no one in their right mind would want to go up against that beast :D - well except David...

[Merlin-27]

DCS is non historic but the planes are fair. I'd like the servers to implement more realistic numbers. At the moment i'm seeing the germans have a far superior numbers advantage. Folk will flock to the better planes, that's just the way it is, you cannot change human nature but you can limit it. Also to the guy complaining about a lack of skill from the p-51 pilots. When I was on yesterday the minority p-51s were being targeted on the runway. Its not surprising the P-51s were flying low they were not given a chance to get any altitude. Until co-op and actual missions are implemented in MP servers, unfortunately air-quake is all were going to get and that is not going to attract many single players to make to change to multi player.

 

We usually attempt to keep the numbers close to even on the server. Wednesday night when I was on, we had a good number of pilots on both sides and most seemed to be having fun. I find it a bit pointless to get upset about airfield strafing. We do allow it and it's even more rewarding to scramble and shoot those guys down. Suggestions are always welcome as long as you attempt to present them in a semi-civilized manner.

 

We expected there would be an increase in this type of behavior but I have no doubt that when we grow the number of regulars, this will self-regulate. Time will tell.

[Altflieger]

The 262 isn't great over 6500m IIrc and down low it guzzles fuel severely limiting it's range.

The problem with this sim is going to be small maps. Just how some people in their overhyped P51 (200 octane why not?) would cope having to fly for 3 hours just to get to the combat zone and then fight would be interesting. Now we're part of DCS world some people can just fly an f16 if their not happy. :)

[Art-J]

Don't worry about booming and zooming 262s. With current DCS target visibility issues, their pilots won't be able to track P-51s anyway :D.

[rubblebeam]

We usually attempt to keep the numbers close to even on the server. Wednesday night when I was on, we had a good number of pilots on both sides and most seemed to be having fun. I find it a bit pointless to get upset about airfield strafing. We do allow it and it's even more rewarding to scramble and shoot those guys down. Suggestions are always welcome as long as you attempt to present them in a semi-civilized manner.

 

We expected there would be an increase in this type of behavior but I have no doubt that when we grow the number of regulars, this will self-regulate. Time will tell.

 

I wasn't getting upset about airfield straifing. I was pointing out why the p51s weren't at altitude. People play theway they want to, that's the nature of the beast. If folk don't like the ROE of servers they will find others that is also the nature of the beast. Like I said I wasn't upset just explaining to the guy who was complaining about the p51 pilots

[Merlin-27]

I wasn't getting upset about airfield straifing. I was pointing out why the p51s weren't at altitude. People play theway they want to, that's the nature of the beast. If folk don't like the ROE of servers they will find others that is also the nature of the beast. Like I said I wasn't upset just explaining to the guy who was complaining about the p51 pilots

 

Sorry man, I wasn't trying to single you out... just used your comment as a place to address that specific subject that I've heard a lot of people commenting on so far. Trying to balance the optimal mission elements is a tough job in itself. Our guys have tried to provide a fun sandbox environment for our persistant everyday public missions where even the low attention span types are catered to. Subsequently, having airbases fairly close to each other makes strafing spawn areas a little more annoying. I'd love to have some period AA units to place to possibly draw in some Combined Arms action. (Sith are you listenining? I remember that WIP 88 model you shared with us a while back :)) Would be a nice way to counter this issue while not incorporating too many AI ground units.

 

And like I said earlier, we will never attack people for making requests and it's even better when they supply viable solutions.

[NineLine]

Sorry man, I wasn't trying to single you out... just used your comment as a place to address that specific subject that I've heard a lot of people commenting on so far. Trying to balance the optimal mission elements is a tough job in itself. Our guys have tried to provide a fun sandbox environment for our persistant everyday public missions where even the low attention span types are catered to. Subsequently, having airbases fairly close to each other makes strafing spawn areas a little more annoying. I'd love to have some period AA units to place to possibly draw in some Combined Arms action. (Sith are you listenining? I remember that WIP 88 model you shared with us a while back :)) Would be a nice way to counter this issue while not incorporating too many AI ground units.

 

And like I said earlier, we will never attack people for making requests and it's even better when they supply viable solutions.

 

Well till me (or someone) gets real AA, you do have a pretty decent script for doing the same, just need to crank the density up for airfields, and switch it off when friendlies are in the air, in that area.

[Merlin-27]

Well till me (or someone) gets real AA, you do have a pretty decent script for doing the same, just need to crank the density up for airfields, and switch it off when friendlies are in the air, in that area.

 

Fair enough... and we do enjoy the results of all your hard work.

 

BUT I can't jump in it and personally deal out some well-deserved retribution! :gun_smilie:

 

Seriously though, I have always wanted to tie in the CA side of things and some of my older missions used this to create some fun scenarios. Hopefully we will see something of the sort with the WWII release.

[NineLine]

Trust me, no one wants Combined Arms 1944 more than me :)

[Konrad Friedrich]

sure, there will always be someone who shoots me down,does this mean i should blame the plane or my skills then?;)

 

but again, third day on the server, and so far, i think i got killed twice by a dora, and only because of my own mistakes...i dont see the fw dominating the p51 at all.

 

:)

I was kidding, David!

 

A little bit teasing before getting into the ring :D

I'm getting in there when I got some more pants to change... :music_whistling:

 

I think the Dora drivers will get better when they know the plane.

When I think back what a struggle it was to tame the Pony...

 

i dont see the fw dominating the p51 at all.

 

Sure. Because they do not dominate each other.

I think they are quite balanced by now.

[Konrad Friedrich]

:D

Dang Konrad you seems all most human now and not to forget a nice person.

 

Im online every night if time permits.

 

Ok.

Will be nice to shoot you... errr... meet you there.

:D

 

Maybe tomorrow evening?

My callsign is 'Win7' (for what ever reason I'm unable to change that daft name...)

[USARStarkey]

Could not help noticing there has been a Pony boost inflation and we are now at 75" not 72" :smilewink:

 

Jokes aside, while I respect the majority of the arguments put forward for 75" boost since appropriate fuels seems to have been available at the time period the sim depicts, I can't help being a bit cynical and hear "I want all the advantages I can get when playing this sim" when I read some of the post pointing towards "historical accuracy".

 

The Me262 was brought up as an example why we should learn to live with superior performance and not talk about balance. Now IMHO the Me262 is actually a poor example because there is actually an element of balance here that makes this setup interesting to fly in a sim:

 

While the Me262 is superior in speed, it has no chance in the turn. As some of the previous posts pointed out in a very good way this can actually make for some interesting situations because it is pretty difficult to shoot down a Pony that is aware that you are there and pass after pass makes a slight jinx when you are are about to fire. So this is actually an interesting sim scenario where there is an element of balance since it's an extreme energy fighter versus an (in comparison) extreme angles fighter.

 

Now exchange that for a 75" Pony against B4&MW50 Dora and have the Pony attacking. Just how exactly will this fight become interesting? Even if we start with energy parity what can the Dora do? Climb? No Turn? No Extend? No Dive? No. Going from sea level to ceiling, exactly where is the Dora supposed to have parity or an advantage? However, as pointed out before, in the current setup one is doing better down low, the other at altitude, ergo an element of balance making this sim fun to fly.

 

The 75" Pony will simply have both the angles and energy advantage. Period. In addition, if we compare the current 67" Pony to the current Dora the small turn rate advantage the Pony has now will with 75" boost become much bigger since the added power will enable the Pony to drag it's lower wing loaded wing around quicker making turning a no contest.

 

In the context of a sim I think interesting to fly is pretty much synonymous with balance and that was the point I was trying to make in my previous post. However, if 75" is enabled as an option then by all means if what rocks your boat is to have both angles and energy advantage then enable it and go on your turkey shoot.

 

BTW: Since it seems to be so popular to have "options" then why not model a C3 & MW50 Dora as well? By the same argument, if you don't like it then you don't have to enable it.

 

For those looking for historical accuracy, it would have been better to have the numerically more prevalent Me109G6 in DCS, some with gunpods and the majority with 1.3 ata boost and no 1.4 ata Notleistung enabled. In addition, to mirror the proficiency state of the majority of late war LW pilots set the AI on "Average" and you're good to go!

 

Having a balanced fight is only part of the fun of a sim. Part of the fun, at least for me, is a feel for authenticity. If you spend time reading about the general situation during wartime, I want a sim that reflects that. Albeit I wouldn't insist on German planes being subject to sabotage etc, but it is somewhat immersion breaking to have to face down the pinnacle of German fighter development with a non-equivalent American or British plane. The P-51 hardly has it the worst. The Spit IX makes zero sense in the context of the other planes in this game. The P-47 is going to be a downright pain in the ass without 150grade, and it might very well still be without it. I find it almost laughably contradictory how much is being said about the pilot being at fault, yet when we want higher boosts or etc to make the scenario more realistic, suddenly the balance is off.