SU27 R27ER missile guidance VS F15C

[Frostie]

I normally bring 4 sparrows and 4 sidewinders and that will bring eagles down if you do it the right way. I have plenty of online kills to prove it.

Slammers, especially the -C, sucks just as much as any other missile in game and sidewinders has their share of misses as well, so IMO it's not really a question of missiles but rather how and from where they are employed.

 

The thing is, that if you are already close to the ground and your missiles doesn't seem to do the job, there is nowhere for you to go against an enemy coming down at you from high altitude. He has the speed and the energy to engage or disengage, and since the Eagle is faster than the Flanker, starting a fight from low altitude in a Flanker will give you a disadvantage to begin with.

 

Stupid pilots may not see you but half decent ones will. You press on any F-15 from range and you'll have an active your way. Yes you can beat low bandits with high tactics but that is because a lot that fly low are inexperienced and don't scan high. Good F-15 pilots use height a lot, you go against that with SARH and you will fail more than not.

 

I've had plenty of experience in this sim to know when something doesn't work, flying in public servers is not a testament to skill or what works because the level is so sporadic. Flying high worked well enough before, now it doesn't work anywhere near as well as it use to. Chaff is over effective and throw in clutter etc. makes missiles miss a lot. If you have an active missile you can force the defensive while having the option to defend yourself if you don't and stuck with SARH you don't have any options so you're flying the gauntlet with missiles that won't hit waiting to get a high active jump you.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Frostie

[Fri13]

Just asking a noob question; people "throwing" a ARH missile at you and turning around, does DCS allow datalink from a other F-15 or AWACS to guide missile in, or does/can the fired F-15 turn some point to update trajectory to get the missile back to correct basket position?

 

As i hear a lot of these tips to fire and immediately turn away, that should lead missile be lost if target does any kind maneuver that leads it out of the estimated flight before launch. So how wide/long the basket area is for 120 to acquire target by itself as F-15 has already turned away and isn't updating target positions via datalink?

[GGTharos]

Just asking a noob question; people "throwing" a ARH missile at you and turning around, does DCS allow datalink from a other F-15 or AWACS to guide missile in, or does/can the fired F-15 turn some point to update trajectory to get the missile back to correct basket position?

 

No, there is no other data-link to the missile other than the launching aircraft's, and that is correct behavior.

 

In RL the M-link is generated by the launcher. You'll have to go to very, veeeery recent missiles to get even a hint of things being done differently.

 

As i hear a lot of these tips to fire and immediately turn away, that should lead missile be lost if target does any kind maneuver that leads it out of the estimated flight before launch. So how wide/long the basket area is for 120 to acquire target by itself as F-15 has already turned away and isn't updating target positions via datalink?

The 'basket' is messed up, and not correct at all right now if the missile is doing its own search.

[GGTharos]

The F-15 was designed to be more autonomous, with the plane's/flight's own radar(s) providing the information that maintains SA..

 

Why do they use AWACS if they don't need it? The Su-27 was designed to push into enemy territory as well.

 

The principle difference to me is that servers aren't deliberately turning down the performance of the F-15 radar, but they are deliberately turning down the performance of the Su-27 by removing the GCI that is an integral part of it's employment doctrine - as a means of actively managing the relative capabilities of the 2 planes.

 

That is incorrect. The F-15's radar performance is poor, and the Su-27's radar performance is not degraded enough for it to require GCI.

 

& I didn't think people were going for 'even' :)

 

(maybe servers should only allow AIM-7 & keep it really 'even' ?)

 

The game gives you even. The radars have practically no difference, and the missiles are so poor that it doesn't matter.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Stupid pilots may not see you but half decent ones will. You press on any F-15 from range and you'll have an active your way. Yes you can beat low bandits with high tactics but that is because a lot that fly low are inexperienced and don't scan high. Good F-15 pilots use height a lot, you go against that with SARH and you will fail more than not.

 

I've had plenty of experience in this sim to know when something doesn't work, flying in public servers is not a testament to skill or what works because the level is so sporadic. Flying high worked well enough before, now it doesn't work anywhere near as well as it use to. Chaff is over effective and throw in clutter etc. makes missiles miss a lot. If you have an active missile you can force the defensive while having the option to defend yourself if you don't and stuck with SARH you don't have any options so you're flying the gauntlet with missiles that won't hit waiting to get a high active jump you.

 

 

I wasn't talking about skills, who is better than who or any of that.

The guy with ARH is supposed to have the edge over SARH, that is the whole point of the missile type.

But my philosophy is that you need to give yourself the better odds whenever possible and starting an engagement from ground level is just IMHO, not doing that, because you have nothing to trade for something else if you have to change your plan.

 

Besides all missiles are prone to chaff, not just the SARH ones but all of them!

I don't question your experience, these were only my observations based on my experience from the 104th and offline tests with AI.

As i mentioned i mostly carry sparrows for the reason that 50% of the time the -C slammer won't even pick up it's target in long range BVR shots, but rather just wander of into space.

I agree that bringing down a slammer loaded eagle using only SARH is not an easy task but it's absolutely possible if you set your parameters right.

 

See you in the skies..

[audax]

The R27 needs a buff, that much is clear:

[Weta43]

Why do they use AWACS if they don't need it?

I said "more autonomous", not "absolutely autonomous". Even with the integrated SA generated by a full datalinked flight of F-22, with all their advanced sensors, I suspect they won't tell the AWACS to stay States Side because they're never going to be needed...

 

 

The Su-27 was designed to push into enemy territory as well.

As a secondary role - The Soviet airforce was there primarily for defence of the homeland.

The USAF is much more a force projection instrument, and the F-15 is designed accordingly.

 

 

That is incorrect. The F-15's radar performance is poor, and the Su-27's radar performance is not degraded enough for it to require GCI..

 

What's incorrect - that the radar was designed to be used with GCI ?

It's essentially the same radar as the MiG-29 (with a bigger dish & a bit ore power), which doesn't even have a tactical display - just cues on the HUD showing you where the GCI wants you to go next. The GCI can even steer and lock the radar from their position...

 

..Or that deliberately removing the GCI doesn't degrade the SA of the flankers' pilots to the advantage of F-15 pilots ? That may be your opinion, but to paraphrase your quote ..

 

Why did they use GCI if they didn't need it?

 

or that "The F-15's radar performance is poor" only means that the Su-27's CGI driven SA should be removed if the intention is to deliberately 'ballance' the sim, which I've heard numerous Eagle drivers repeately say shouldn't be the case.

Many times I"ve heard the argument that "It's an Su-27S & it hasn't got the capacity to guide R-77 in real life, and no we shouldn't pretend it has the later upgraded radar just to allow 'ballance' in the SIM".

Well in real life it does have the ability to use the GCI data as presented in SIM (+ more capability), so why would you remove real modelled capabilities just to maintain 'ballance' (which in this case amounts to maitaining the F-15's superiority).

 

Unless the argument is that "The F-15 is a better BVR plane, and we should disable game features to maintain that plane's superiority inthe SIM", which may, or may not be a valid argument, but not one I've heard put forward...

[GGTharos]

Well in real life it does have the ability to use the GCI data as presented in SIM (+ more capability), so why would you remove real modelled capabilities just to maintain 'ballance' (which in this case amounts to maitaining the F-15's superiority).

 

What's being removed? First, GCI in-game is unrealistic. Second, AWACS in-game is unrealistic.

 

Relative radar performance is so close that what the GCI does vs. what the AWACS does actually gives an advantage that does not exist.

That's ok though, because a working AMRAAM would - oh ... (But hey, I agree about the R27 as well. It needs to be dealing with CMs differently).

So are you still wanting to argue the balance thing? The sim is balanced for your already by virtue of using the same codebase for all things FC right now, aircraft to aircraft.

Edited May 11, 2015 by GGTharos

[*Rage*]

 

Besides all missiles are prone to chaff, not just the SARH ones but all of them!

 

Yes. They are. And all missiles are prone to quite illogical misses as well. But the R27 is far far more prone to chaff than the 120 is. Even in situations when chaff should be ineffectual.

 

Which is why staying high to get a missile of faster and sooner gives you no advantage currently but all the vulnerability. At 15km range at sea level you can turn and run to friendlies or sams. At 20km range at high altitude without a dependable missile and against a determined foe you are as good as dead.

 

Except its not just a determined foe. It someone who's confident that they can negate any speed, altitude or first launch advantage you have simply by chaffing. And he knows that at 15km a volley of 120s has a much higher chance of hitting than anything you throw back at hiim.

 

Such are the dynamics of the sim now.

Edited May 11, 2015 by ///Rage

[TAW_Blaze]

Yes. They are. And all missiles are prone to quite illogical misses as well. But the R27 is far far more prone to chaff than the 120 is. Even in situations when chaff should be ineffectual.

 

Which is why staying high to get a missile of faster and sooner gives you no advantage currently but all the vulnerability. At 15km range at sea level you can turn and run to friendlies or sams. At 20km range at high altitude without a dependable missile and against a determined foe you are as good as dead.

 

Except its not just a determined foe. It someone who's confident that they can negate any speed, altitude or first launch advantage you have simply by chaffing. And he knows that at 15km a volley of 120s has a much higher chance of hitting than anything you throw back at hiim.

 

Such are the dynamics of the sim now.

 

You can throw ETs at the guy, it'll usually prevent him from running you down. It isn't very ideal, but it happens to work this way.

 

As far as the GCI argument goes, I see it's derailed to a more theoretical approach but currently it's of no use even if enabled due to the ghost contacts (I haven't heard of this being fixed yet, so I assume it's still broken). Ruining stability is just another cherry on the top.

 

Having datalink also promotes the idiotic mountain humping to an unreal extent, everyone who believes to be under a disadvantage at altitude will just continously sit on his mountain. If we had supersearch and TWS memory on the APG then I might say that was all fine but in current conditions it's a joke. Anyone who goes through the notch for one moment drops off completely and sometimes it can take many seconds to reacquire him despite having line of sight while he's already locking you, even if you're directly looking at his face with the radar perfectly set up. The only thing that helps you out at that point is godly SA and the use of boresight.

[*Rage*]

You can throw ETs at the guy, it'll usually prevent him from running you down. It isn't very ideal, but it happens to work this way.

 

C'mon Blaze. You and I both know that if you can see an ET you can evade it (assuming it tracks to start with). Its probably the easiest missile to spoof right now. At that range you should even expect it.

 

Like I said. A determined foe will shrug off an ET shot from head on.

 

I do agree about the GCI/AWACS though. Currently in game ghost contacts are a real problem and it does encourage the lawnmower EOS autolock brigade. However, that is at least partially due to the ineffectiveness of high flying tactics for the flanker as currently represented in game.

Edited May 11, 2015 by ///Rage

[TAW_Blaze]

C'mon Blaze. You and I both know that if you can see an ET you can evade it (assuming it tracks to start with). Its probably the easiest missile to spoof right now. At that range you should even expect it.

 

Like I said. A determined foe will shrug off an ET shot from head on.

 

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.

 

Yes you can expect it and should, too. That's not the point. If you're firing ER+ET combos it's nigh impossible to find out if any ETs have been launched or not. Then you have to assume there are some in the air. This means you can't just chase the guy down as usual. At minimum you have to cut the burner, but I wouldn't be confident dodging ETs head on with milpower (haven't tested). Usually it means you're cruising idle, that won't catch anyone, in fact you can create a lot of separation if you want to. Albeit that's usually the opposite of what a flanker driver wants to do :D

 

I do agree about the GCI/AWACS though. Currently in game ghost contacts are a real problem and it does encourage the lawnmower EOS autolock brigade.

 

Don't worry if they fix it and everything else stays as it is it'll encourage it even more. :megalol:

[*Rage*]

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.

 

Yes you can expect it and should, too. That's not the point. If you're firing ER+ET combos it's nigh impossible to find out if any ETs have been launched or not. Then you have to assume there are some in the air. This means you can't just chase the guy down as usual. At minimum you have to cut the burner, but I wouldn't be confident dodging ETs head on with milpower (haven't tested). Usually it means you're cruising idle, that won't catch anyone, in fact you can create a lot of separation if you want to.

 

Both ER and ETs are very easy to spoof/evade while maintaining an offensive aspect. This is the point I'm making. How you want to do it depends on you. But I see it alot online. What...A flanker pilot has the altitude speed and first launch advantage on you? Ain't no thing but a chicken wing :) Just go head on, drop chaff and flare, take a little off aspect. Watch his missiles miss-track and keep pressing. At 15-20k launch 120s. Profit!

 

Don't worry if they fix it and everything else stays as it is it'll encourage it even more. :megalol:

 

Its because of the above scenario that flanker pilots started flying nap of the earth. Now the F15 pilots are doing it as well.

Edited May 11, 2015 by ///Rage

[Kuky]

Anyone who goes through the notch for one moment drops off completely and sometimes it can take many seconds to reacquire him despite having line of sight while he's already locking you' date=' even if you're directly looking at his face with the radar perfectly set up. The only thing that helps you out at that point is godly SA and the use of boresight.[/quote']

 

problem with trying to pick up someone in BVR mode when that close is because aircraft movement relative to you is high and radar scan area very small, so easy to miss it, especially if still in TWS mode, you cannot get enough scans to get tracking. So that's nothing wrong with F-15C radar. And like you said, if that close use CAC modes.

[whitehot]

In game the Flanker has a bigger RCS and a bigger IR signature than any other mp fighter while A2A IR missiles perform worse than Strelas.

FC2 had it close, right now it sucks to fight as a Flanker pilot.

 

+1 - Some months ago (when I stopped doing MP for a while) you could enter BVR fights with eagles and come out on top. Now from the little I've seen it's a matter of spamming aim-120C

 

 

 

No, there is no other data-link to the missile other than the launching aircraft's, and that is correct behavior.

 

In RL the M-link is generated by the launcher. You'll have to go to very, veeeery recent missiles to get even a hint of things being done differently.

 

 

The Mig-31 /R-33 has that capability

[TAW_Blaze]

Both ER and ETs are very easy to spoof/evade while maintaining an offensive aspect. This is the point I'm making. How you do want to do it depends on you. But I see it alot online. What...A flanker pilot has the altitude speed and first launch advantage on you? Ain't no thing but a chicken wing :) Just go head on, drop chaff and flare, take a little off aspect. Watch his missiles miss-track and keep pressing. At 15-20k launch 120s. Profit!

 

I don't see this as a reliable approach myself. Obviously your perspective on the matter is different because you're the other guy. Basically from a kinematical standpoint in the situation you described there's absolutely nothing I can do that would normally kill you before you can finish planting ERs on my nose. Anyone who does that is just throwing a dice that the missiles will go full retard. It might work 8 or 9 times out of 10 even if executed flawless, but that other time you're dead.

 

Like I said, my perspective will always stay fundamentally different because I'm the other guy from the pair. I'm always looking for ideas that will work reliable and independent of bullshit RNG mechanics of the game. I've been on both ends of ER kills and the few instance I've experienced easily convince me that they can work, whatever results I've seen from the little hours I spent in the flanker only help me not to underestimate those missiles. If I was in your situation I'd probably look for something to solve it too, losing 80% of the time for no reason doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

Its because of the above scenario that flanker pilots started flying nap of the earth. Now the F15 pilots are doing it as well.

 

Yeah, I noticed too.

[TAW_Blaze]

problem with trying to pick up someone in BVR mode when that close is because aircraft movement relative to you is high and radar scan area very small, so easy to miss it, especially if still in TWS mode, you cannot get enough scans to get tracking. So that's nothing wrong with F-15C radar. And like you said, if that close use CAC modes.

 

Thing is, I'm not just trying to pick him up, I should have not lost him in the first place, and beyond that, even if you point the radar at him (because you know where he is) in RWS it can take way too much time to find anything. If you try to find something inside 10 with TWS you're dead before it'll show up. AAQ is not always an option if you already have missiles flying at your face. Supersearch is not even necessary but it'd be quite the tool, TWS memory alone would fix most of my problems. Right now the only option is improving SA.

[Kuky]

But having "memory" doesn't mean you are actually seeing the target, it merely will show where it would be expected to be if he maintained its heading (which doesn't normally happen). Also same difficulty is with Su-27 radar, when really close and you don't know exactly where he is, you only know approximation, because he's so close it's pretty much impossible to reacquire him... and if you keep looking at radar instead of trying to get visual, and he sees you, you are pretty much dead.

[*Rage*]

I don't see this as a reliable approach myself. Obviously your perspective on the matter is different because you're the other guy. Basically from a kinematical standpoint in the situation you described there's absolutely nothing I can do that would normally kill you before you can finish planting ERs on my nose.

 

Precisely. A kinematic advantage should be a very serious and deadly matter. For either side.

 

Anyone who does that is just throwing a dice that the missiles will go full retard. It might work 8 or 9 times out of 10 even if executed flawless' date=' but that other time you're dead. [/quote']

 

8 or 9 time out of ten = Profit! Its the inverse of what the risk should be! In real life you would never take that risk. A missile to the face means your wife loses the house and your kids are orphaned. In game you just hit re-spawn.

 

Like I said' date=' my perspective will always stay fundamentally different because I'm [i']the other guy[/i] from the pair. I'm always looking for ideas that will work reliable and independent of bullshit RNG mechanics of the game. I've been on both ends of ER kills and the few instance I've experienced easily convince me that they can work, whatever results I've seen from the little hours I spent in the flanker only help me not to underestimate those missiles. If I was in your situation I'd probably look for something to solve it too, losing 80% of the time for no reason doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I have alot of respect for that. Flying realistically and trying to employ real world tactics is why we're all here. The fact is though people play to win. There's nothing wrong with that. Its just that I'm noticing a shift in the MP experience.

 

Yeah' date=' I noticed too.[/quote']

 

Eventually we'll all be mountain crawling in F15s in boresight mode. :megalol:

Edited May 11, 2015 by ///Rage

[Kuky]

Hiding in the mountains won't be good tactics IF mission was set to have your fighters do CAP or Fighter Sweep in certain areas. If you have your friendly ground units all taken out because you were not there to protect them... in real life you would be as good as dead when you came to land :D Sadly in sim this is not the case as there is no particular goal set, other than take off and get as many kills as you can.

[TAW_Blaze]

But having "memory" doesn't mean you are actually seeing the target, it merely will show where it would be expected to be if he maintained its heading (which doesn't normally happen). Also same difficulty is with Su-27 radar, when really close and you don't know exactly where he is, you only know approximation, because he's so close it's pretty much impossible to reacquire him... and if you keep looking at radar instead of trying to get visual, and he sees you, you are pretty much dead.

 

It's not the problem of sitting in the notch and hiding for a long period. The problem is when he turns on you and goes through the notch for a split second and the radar just throws him away. With TWS memory that would never happen. Inside 10 miles 2-3 seconds is already a matter of life and death and you practically have to get out of the crank to line up the shot without a lock and you have to find him within the time window of that turn. If he happens to be slightly closer than you expected then you're simply dead, if you can't get a lock in time you just end up running home. Turning into a bandit that has altitude on you while you're defensive around 10 miles should be an instant death every time and there are very few exceptions where it should work.

Edited May 11, 2015 by <Blaze>

[Frostie]

I wasn't talking about skills, who is better than who or any of that.

The guy with ARH is supposed to have the edge over SARH, that is the whole point of the missile type.

But my philosophy is that you need to give yourself the better odds whenever possible and starting an engagement from ground level is just IMHO, not doing that, because you have nothing to trade for something else if you have to change your plan.

That wouldn't be an issue if missiles hit at respectable ranges, that's not true anymore you need to be almost WVR for missiles to stand a chance of hitting, at those ranges you don't want to be high. Being high and having a late active warning is the worst place to be. Starting engagements high goes without saying but it doesn't produce the desired results.

 

Most of the Flanker pilots doing the in the weeds flying are trying to utilise the Flankers other options such as stealth attacks, that is generally why they fly so low and it is what works better than anything right now.

 

As Blaze states being high and in a good position against a low and cold bandit should be giving you most of the positives but unfortunately that's not the case.

[Dudikoff]

As a secondary role - The Soviet airforce was there primarily for defence of the homeland. The USAF is much more a force projection instrument, and the F-15 is designed accordingly.

 

That's Soviet PVO (and Su-27P). Su-27S was part of the Frontal Aviation and if needed it would conduct offensive CAP or escort missions pretty much as the F-15 does.

 

What's incorrect - that the radar was designed to be used with GCI ?

It's essentially the same radar as the MiG-29 (with a bigger dish & a bit ore power), which doesn't even have a tactical display - just cues on the HUD showing you where the GCI wants you to go next. The GCI can even steer and lock the radar from their position...

 

The radar system is more than just a dish design. I'd expect the N001 (once cleared of its initial bugs and problems) to have much more processing power compared to the rather underperforming N019 (I guess N019M corrected some of the limitations).

 

I don't get how the fact that the radar antennas share a common design means that the Su-27 was bound to the same operating limitations as the MiG-29. It has a much more powerful radar system as a whole, tactical display, much bigger BVR load and range, etc. so it was capable of conducting autonomous CAP operations and was not tied to the GCI as point defense fighters (such as e.g. MiG-29) were which had no radar range, enough BVR missiles for more than engaging of basically one target only or even enough fuel to fly around and search for targets.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Dudikoff

[combatace]

The game gives you even. The radars have practically no difference, and the missiles are so poor that it doesn't matter.

 

So how good do you think missiles are? Aim-120C scored a Pk of less then 50% in testing, against non-maneuvering, non-evading targets with no ECM or CM.

[*Rage*]

So how good do you think missiles are? Aim-120C scored a Pk of less then 50% in testing, against non-maneuvering, non-evading targets with no ECM or CM.

 

I find that hard to believe. Im afraid comments like that only serve to derail the thread. Unless you have a credible source.