SU27 R27ER missile guidance VS F15C

[USARStarkey]

Historical possessing ... no way man than why we are have mig21bis or even a DCS F-18 (super hornet or normal hornet). Your argument does not make any sense.

 

Let it be DCS F35 A, Let it be DCS F15SE ... so let it Su27x family in DCS WORLD. This is nothing to do with representative of their parent air forces inventory as a whole.

 

We have Typhoon and others in the pipeline so why not the modern flankers ?

 

Algeria have modern Flankers and as Raptide mention India has 200+ MKI and many other nations have also.

 

Regardless of who is America's enemy is or not.... you are suggesting is DCS WORLD modeled more are around the Favor of USA Airforce ? Really ?

 

With PFM Eagle Dynamics gave a opportunity or open the door to us Military SIM pilots to experience vary of jets we love to fly.

 

As much I love to see Modern Flankers, Let it be Tornados, Mirages, Grippens.

 

Really DCS WORLD is nothing to do with this theory Adding new Jets representative of their parent air forces inventory as a whole.

 

 

 

The mig 21 is irrelevant. It represents a totally different era just like the ww2 aircraft. As for the Eurofighter, it doesn't yet exist in game. Nor did I say that I support that idea of the Eurofighter, which was your own assumption. I will say that I find it as less of a big deal because it does not come from either of the two major nations who are juxtaposed in the sim. AS I recall, the F-18 being done is a C model. The Super Hornet is being done by a third party no? The superhornet also not really in the same class as a S-30---seeing as it doesn't feature SC or TV. If some third party wants to make a spaceship for the game then whatever.

As for making the game to the "favor of the USA" I did not say that. I said that aircraft in game should be make to suit the general flavor of the parent airforces modeled in the sim. I dont care who that favors so long as we have a accurate representation of the general time period as a whole. I makes zero sense to make a game for aviation enthusiasts if your going to twist the theoretical engagement to suit some fantasy scenario where both factions had equal RnD and procurement histories. Part of a sims immersion is how it feels in context of what we know the real situation was. If your perception of the last 20 years is that it favors the USA, well then tough. As it has been said before by many people on here, DCS is about authenticity and accuracy not balance. Conversely, how would you feel if they stuck the F-22 in game but no Su30 or 35? Even a single F-22 in a server could wreak havoc. Not to mention, when would you get to fly these planes online? If either were introduced, even if not in a vacuum, they would be so polarizing that you'd have to limit there availability in a server. You could practically guarantee that the few Raptor or Su-35 slots in a server would almost always be taken. IF you put more in, then you'd have the problem of everyone flying only those planes and anyone who cant find a spot in one is dead meat. So in short yeah, I'd like DCS to generate a world that reflects the real balance of the primary powers in game as close as possible----and not some fantasy world where the Russians have 500 Su-30s in their OOB. Speaking of which who is trying to favor whom exactly? I could care less who it favors so long as it is accurate. You on the other hand want to implement aircraft whose role in the last 2 decades has been limited, and have only be a serious issue since about the mid 2000s (and still do not make up anywhere close to the majority of Russian flanker inventories). Sounds like an attempt to support Russian "favor" to me.

 

That being said, Im done, because this is the wrong thread for this.

[GGTharos]

Guys, get back on topic.

 

ED doesn't care about 'aircraft balance'. If they have the ability to, they'll introduce Su-35's, F-22's and whatever else.

 

Get off it.

[solidusbucket]

Guys, get back on topic.

 

ED doesn't care about 'aircraft balance'. If they have the ability to, they'll introduce Su-35's, F-22's and whatever else.

 

Get off it.

 

This is my understanding of DCS world. It is a simulation sandbox.

 

The consumer has free reign to do what they want in this sandbox. If you want balance then limit the aircraft and weapon selection.

 

DCS does not have to focus on introducing a varient of the aircraft to establish a balanced system - you have to focus on creating a scenario which promotes what you consider balanced. DCS needs to focus on producing high quality, realistic flight dynamics and modules.

 

We are talking about a game where a F-15C can fight a prop plane. The customer can set limitations on this engagement and make it balanced. Thats the kind of game this is. The customer has full control. The more options there are, the more control the customer has. Simply adding a varient of an aircraft is one answer, but it is not the best answer (in my opinion).

[combatace]

Keep your speed around 1100kmph and when Aim-120C goes active do barrel rolls in the direction of the missile. Ofcourse people will say barrel roles are useless but thats how I defeat the missiles.

[six.dof]

@combatace

 

it works also for rear comming AIM120 quite well, even with lower speed :megalol:

 

Actually i am happy for any DCS Aircraft, everyone can set the Balance in the mission editor, even some third country ( MIG21, SU-25) vs. 1st Country (F15C, A10C) scenario.

[combatace]

@combatace

 

it works also for rear comming AIM120 quite well, even with lower speed :megalol:

 

Actually i am happy for any DCS Aircraft, everyone can set the Balance in the mission editor, even some third country ( MIG21, SU-25) vs. 1st Country (F15C, A10C) scenario.

 

I call that skew mind.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Did you try this against human players too or just AI?

[inSky_1911CFZS]

My experience vs F-15:

If they launch AIM-120s from 35km+,just don't worry about them because these 120 will never reach you.

In 25km,launch your first R-27ER,and you may got a kill. If enemy launch 120,do some rolls to slow their missile down.

Then you are 20km from enemy,use your R-27ET and quickly turn 180° back to avoid being hit by their 120 within NEZ.And then just do the same thing like this.

Remember: if you are with-in 15km and threaten by a 120,turn back and full afterburner,DO NOT Worry about guiding R-27ER!

[Cmptohocah]

Of course Su27 is not helpless against engaging the Eagle: there is this neat thing called data link which Su27 uses. You get position of your enemies from a ground-based radar or AWACS so you don't have to fly like a headless chicken at him :)

Why online servers don't support this, is beyond me.

[karambiatos]

Why online servers don't support this, is beyond me.

Some do, the populated ones don't.

[TAW_Blaze]

Of course Su27 is not helpless against engaging the Eagle: there is this neat thing called data link which Su27 uses. You get position of your enemies from a ground-based radar or AWACS so you don't have to fly like a headless chicken at him :)

Why online servers don't support this, is beyond me.

 

Because it screws up the stability and it's useless on a high population server due to the ghosts.

[whitehot]

Because it screws up the stability and it's useless on a high population server due to the ghosts.

 

imho flankers are severely hampered by this - having awacs and ew for both sides would be blessing

[Svend_Dellepude]

Imho flankers are hampered by flying 300ft AGL.

Get some altitude and fire up that radar and start scanning for targets. The ER has more range than anything the eagle can carry.

Use altitude and range to keep the eagle busy.

[Weta43]

The flanker was designed to be used in conjunction with GCI - not having it is like having the F-15 with no TWS.

[GGTharos]

It's like having an F15 without good radar performance or working bvr missiles, and especially no battle manager in the AWACS. It's all fairly even.

[SDsc0rch]

oooof!

 

that hurt!

 

 

 

(because its so trueeeeeee!)

: ((

[whitehot]

It's like having an F15 without good radar performance or working bvr missiles, and especially no battle manager in the AWACS. It's all fairly even.

 

exactly

[Weta43]

It's like having an F15 without good radar performance or working bvr missiles, and especially no battle manager in the AWACS. It's all fairly even.

 

The Su-27 as represented in the SIM was never intended to be employed without GCI control - that's not what it's designed to do. The Su-27 was to be passed a target from the ground, which it would engage (perhaps not even having the radar emitting till the last minute, or not at all by using the EOS) while the GCI provided situational awareness through the data-link /voice-link.

 

The F-15 was designed to be more autonomous, with the plane's/flight's own radar(s) providing the information that maintains SA..

 

Some of the capabilities of both aircraft are missing, and there are problems with the BVR missiles of both aircraft.

 

The principle difference to me is that servers aren't deliberately turning down the performance of the F-15 radar, but they are deliberately turning down the performance of the Su-27 by removing the GCI that is an integral part of it's employment doctrine - as a means of actively managing the relative capabilities of the 2 planes.

 

& I didn't think people were going for 'even' :)

 

(maybe servers should only allow AIM-7 & keep it really 'even' ?)

[*Rage*]

The Su27 is hampered by the lack of its 'within flight' datalink. Meaning even without GCI or awacs i should be able to see what my wingman and 2nd element see with their radars and for each of us to know our relative positions. This is posible in SP currently but not yet in MP.

 

Also, high flying early launch tactics are virtually impossible currently due to chaff. ERs will miss at all ranges if theres enough chaff in the air leaving you a toothless high flying target for all to engage.

Edited May 10, 2015 by ///Rage

[Dudikoff]

The Su-27 as represented in the SIM was never intended to be employed without GCI control - that's not what it's designed to do. The Su-27 was to be passed a target from the ground, which it would engage (perhaps not even having the radar emitting till the last minute, or not at all by using the EOS) while the GCI provided situational awareness through the data-link /voice-link.

 

This is not strictly so IMHO. You're describing e.g. the MiG-21/23/29 here (point defense fighters with limited range, radar capabilities and BVR payload). GCI is more or less a defensive network in principle with limited offensive range, but Su-27 (e.g. Su-27S) was also designed to be an air superiority fighter so it needs to be capable of performing offensive CAP missions, too, hence why it got a bigger and more capable radar, a large MRM payload, ECM, large fuel load and an advanced datalink able to share data within the flight. It would be augmented by AWACS ideally, of course.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Dudikoff

[karambiatos]

It's like having an F15 without good radar performance or working bvr missiles, and especially no battle manager in the AWACS. It's all fairly even.

Now you imply like the Russian bvr missiles are working, and the 27 has it's own plane to plane datalink working.

Edited May 10, 2015 by karambiatos

[Frostie]

Imho flankers are hampered by flying 300ft AGL.

Get some altitude and fire up that radar and start scanning for targets. The ER has more range than anything the eagle can carry.

Use altitude and range to keep the eagle busy.

 

Because of the poor performance of missiles engagement ranges are reduced to 10-15km where shooting an ARH and running is usually the winning tactic. To make a successful hit with ER you need to be at these ranges, to do so is just asking the bandit to nose on you and throw an ARH at you.

 

Flying high and fighting with ERs in the Flanker is the key for ultimate frustration. Your ERs will certainly always fail and sooner or later you'll get an ARH in the face.

 

In game the Flanker has a bigger RCS and a bigger IR signature than any other mp fighter while A2A IR missiles perform worse than Strelas.

FC2 had it close, right now it sucks to fight as a Flanker pilot.

[rami80]

So let me get this straight, the majority agrees both main fighters have bad BVR missiles. In addition to that the F-15 has a bad(how??) radar. While the flanker has no operating plane to plane data link and no AWACS for the usual data link to work in the first place. All of this while while the flanker has barely any decent TWS ability(since everyone flies with ECM on)(I really wish ED would tell us more about the flanker radar modeling) and SARH.

 

Makes it clear to why the 104th puts F-15s on both sides.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Because of the poor performance of missiles engagement ranges are reduced to 10-15km where shooting an ARH and running is usually the winning tactic. To make a successful hit with ER you need to be at these ranges, to do so is just asking the bandit to nose on you and throw an ARH at you.

 

Flying high and fighting with ERs in the Flanker is the key for ultimate frustration. Your ERs will certainly always fail and sooner or later you'll get an ARH in the face.

 

In game the Flanker has a bigger RCS and a bigger IR signature than any other mp fighter while A2A IR missiles perform worse than Strelas.

FC2 had it close, right now it sucks to fight as a Flanker pilot.

 

I normally bring 4 sparrows and 4 sidewinders and that will bring eagles down if you do it the right way. I have plenty of online kills to prove it.

Slammers, especially the -C, sucks just as much as any other missile in game and sidewinders has their share of misses as well, so IMO it's not really a question of missiles but rather how and from where they are employed.

 

The thing is, that if you are already close to the ground and your missiles doesn't seem to do the job, there is nowhere for you to go against an enemy coming down at you from high altitude. He has the speed and the energy to engage or disengage, and since the Eagle is faster than the Flanker, starting a fight from low altitude in a Flanker will give you a disadvantage to begin with.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Makes it clear to why the 104th puts F-15s on both sides.

 

AFAIK 104th did that because the eagle is the more popular one in their server, so you would mostly see 10 eagles against 3 flankers. It was done to even out teams regarding players and not airpower.