SU27 R27ER missile guidance VS F15C

[Kunze13]

basically to dodge an aim120while keeping radar lock on the 15, im unsure how well it works in dcs cause im having issues with my bvr however i do at least know this will dodge the 120

 

first you need to understand how the enemy sees and targets you and how the 120 tracks you.

 

if you go full burner head on at him and he fires a missle at you, your goal should be to A. increase the time till closer as drastically as you can so the missle no longer has the predicted rate of closure, and B. to drag it around the sky because after so long its engine burns out so it cannot regain airspeed lost.

 

as for how to accomplish A and B while keeping the eagle 60 degrees or less, its simple, perform a very wide large slow barrel roll then as it closes it should just pass under you harmlessly(it takes practice though so dont quit).

 

if you are fired on in short to mid range FORGET TRYING TO LOCK HIM UP!!! get the missle off the right or left wing at 90 degrees and then when it closes to about 1nm pull hard up and spam chaff or invert and pull hard down, it doesn't always work but its your best bet as ive seen sofar. at this point attempt to target him in hms mode and fire an archer(r-73) at him

[Bidartarra]

Hope this is not off topic, but I'm kinda bugged by the fact that everyone (mostly) flies 30ft Agl in F15 su 27 and mig 29 and turns ecm right after gear up.

Im all for realism, but I find it weird sometimes to be told on.server that I should never get a kill in my Mig 21 because it's not realistic as it's an old plane so inferior to modern fighters.

Hell was even told to go play ACE combat if in was disagreeing lol

I'm not targeting anyone here, but lots of.ppl ask for more realism aka F15 should destroy everything, (being sarcastic) while flying unrealistic (hugging the ground and shooting amraams even at very short ranges) kinda hypocritical I believe.

 

Mp sometimes feels really like Call of duty, with a race to frag no matter what.

 

Don't hate me, those are just my feelings, I'm on the 104th often if you need a target :)

 

Bid

[pepin1234]

thank you guys. I just read this thread and feel happy about that. I can't comment nothing about. no comments... :smartass:

 

Mp sometimes feels really like Call of duty, with a race to frag no matter what.

 

Don't hate me, those are just my feelings, I'm on the 104th often if you need a target

 

I never change this serious simulator project by this arcade game. Learn, try, and get into training to get the fit in your aircraft. you can change the server by another that not allow cheat mods... :music_whistling:

Edited July 31, 2015 by pepin1234

[*Rage*]

Hope this is not off topic, but I'm kinda bugged by the fact that everyone (mostly) flies 30ft Agl in F15 su 27 and mig 29 and turns ecm right after gear up.

Im all for realism, but I find it weird sometimes to be told on.server that I should never get a kill in my Mig 21 because it's not realistic as it's an old plane so inferior to modern fighters.

Hell was even told to go play ACE combat if in was disagreeing lol

I'm not targeting anyone here, but lots of.ppl ask for more realism aka F15 should destroy everything, (being sarcastic) while flying unrealistic (hugging the ground and shooting amraams even at very short ranges) kinda hypocritical I believe.

 

Mp sometimes feels really like Call of duty, with a race to frag no matter what.

 

Don't hate me, those are just my feelings, I'm on the 104th often if you need a target :)

 

Bid

 

Thats quite common now on MP servers (and events) to see Eagle and Flanker pilots flying nap of the earth all the time. Its annoying and unrealistic.

 

The ground hugging 15-20km range spamraam issue is getting worse.

[winchesterdelta1]

Maybe not blame the players for this kind of air quake behavior. Give us realistic missions with proper distances. Planes to escort. Mission planning. Dynamic events. Infrastructure to attack or defend, convoy's to attack or defend and transports/bombers to attack or defend, with high threat area's you need to patrol so you can defend your assets. Maybe also advancing ground units. Until we have no real objectives with meaning, objectives that are dynamic and when achieved it helps to win the "war/Conflict" most people will be playing air quake. Or just simply disable re-spawn in the missions we play now.

 

Right now the target area's of the A-10's and other ground pounders are somewhat away from the fast jet fights. Make a frontline.. Or make the main bases primary objectives. And for the ground pounders to reach it they should use AAR. Now everything is just bunched up and we only escort A-10's and SU-25's when there are people like me harassing them on purpose for easy kills. Not to protect our assets. Than we can talk about more realistic behavior.

Right now we just make our own fun. Most people like me are flying for hours. With no diversity i have to challenge myself with unrealistic goals. If we stop doing that there will be not much players to fight against cause it will be very very boring to play a non dynamic mission with no real objectives and win condition for a couple hours.

 

Now with the MIG-21 we can do even strikes more far away. Instead of only destroying vehicles make the bridges, factory's, dams, EWR and airports targets as well. Put some defensive units around it and voila you will have a more engaging and realistic mission people want to work for to complete or defend the objectives.

I'm getting pretty tired of this air quake argument because there is nothing done to make make players interested in actually doing realistic missions. Whooptiedoo lets defend Bullseye again and the occasional SU-25 or A-10 asking for help.

 

 

 

Also if airfields are primary objectives we should be able to select from witch friendly airfield to take off from with a drop down menu instead of Aircraft slots. But that is something for the people that develop the GUI.

Edited July 31, 2015 by winchesterdelta1

[SNAFU]

OT:

 

 

This is as old as LOMAC itself and was tried several times always with the same results: Empty server.

 

You need a critical mass for the casual online play and you simply don´t get this mass with realisic settings. The 104th operators know this since they tried several times, too.

 

Problem might be, but I don´t know since I usually don´t fly on public servers, that this behavior swaps into organized events, which target realistic settings and you cannot place MANPADS everwhere, I guess.

 

 

[Bidartarra]

...you can change the server by another that not allow cheat mods... :music_whistling:

What do you mean?

 

Thats quite common now on MP servers (and events) to see Eagle and Flanker pilots flying nap of the earth all the time. Its annoying and unrealistic.

 

The ground hugging 15-20km range spamraam issue is getting worse.

 

Yes, sure is.

I'm to the point where I think that a lot of people fly F15s not because they like the aircraft but because it carries amraams...

I'm also thinking RED should not be able to fly F15s, east vs west all the way!

[AussieGhost789]

What do you mean?

 

 

 

Yes, sure is.

I'm to the point where I think that a lot of people fly F15s not because they like the aircraft but because it carries amraams...

I'm also thinking RED should not be able to fly F15s, east vs west all the way!

 

I'd say this is a pretty accurate assessment, for me at least. I really enjoy flying the Su-27, but I just can't look past the advantages that the F-15 enjoys in the form of active missiles (not to mention its RWR). As much as I like flying the Flanker, I also enjoy scoring victories and not getting splashed myself, and I find myself being much more proficient at this when I have AMRAAM's at my disposal. If only we had a Flanker capable of carrying R-77's! I suppose all I can do is eagerly await the MiG-29's A/PFM ^.^

[Bidartarra]

I'd say this is a pretty accurate assessment, for me at least. I really enjoy flying the Su-27, but I just can't look past the advantages that the F-15 enjoys in the form of active missiles (not to mention its RWR). As much as I like flying the Flanker, I also enjoy scoring victories and not getting splashed myself, and I find myself being much more proficient at this when I have AMRAAM's at my disposal. If only we had a Flanker capable of carrying R-77's! I suppose all I can do is eagerly await the MiG-29's A/PFM ^.^

 

Really depends on what one is looking for, I only fly the mig21 even though I have the worst KD ratio in history. But I'm having fun and shooting down modern jets in my old piece of communist technology is a wonderful feeling haha!

 

I like to be challenged and flying the 21 I always have a run for my money. For me the frustration when I started flying the Mig evolved into being much more aware of my mistakes as a flyer and always wanting to do better than the previous time.

 

But I am well aware that this is not for everyone, and I know people prefer a faster gratification when playing video games. Nothing wrong with it. We all have our lives and adding too much stress to it because of a game is not a good thing.

[winchesterdelta1]

I fly the F-15 mostly because of the SA in that plane. Not because of the active's. I could do without the actives if the SU-27 had the same SA as F-15. In the F-15 i know what plane i'm engaging so it's more easy to choose a specific tactic for that threat and it's easy to see even without radar how much planes are coming for you. AMRAAM's is just a nice extra tool.

[Frostie]

It takes time to create a dynamic mission one with goals and objectives, trying to add realism just makes more problems than good. People that fall in love with DCS as a whole package find themselves wanting more from mp. Unfortunately these people are few and far between.

 

The masses complain at long ranges, not having all aircraft on both sides, if the dynamics of the mission restrict their fave weapon, if they have to work to gain more options. They want fair, equal playing fields, the thought of entering a server on the losing side and co-operating to try an turn the tide is alien to them because of the COD effect, they must have an equal or greater chance to win or they quit.

 

That is why airquake prevails in DCS A2A/G servers, not because of the mission makers but the demands and expectations of the majority of players.

 

Airquake is fun and easy, but mp could be so much better.

[SDsc0rch]

^^this

 

WinchesterDelta... good input, too

[SinusoidDelta]

I personally would love to see MP mission where staying alive offers an actual tactical advantage. I'd love if missions used more of the real estate available so that reaching a forward operating base would be critical. Make it require forethought to launch out of home base and engage at bullseye. I'm sure there's more than one way to do it.

 

It's frustrating when we have amazing things like landing gear and fuel consumption modeled but they have very little value in MP.

Edited July 31, 2015 by SinusoidDelta

[tovivan]

While on topic of missions: what I would like to have in missions is some kind of recovery system for shot down pilots and planes/choppers.

 

I know there was a squadron that in their weekly insider ops they had chopper pilots picking up shot down jet pilots and delivering them to base so they could take another plane and get back into battle. The friend who was part of that sadly can't tell me anymore which squdron it was, since it's been a while. But the idea is fantastic.

 

It would really demand of players to actually be tactical and try to survive.

 

Would it really be that hard to script an AI Mi-26 to come pick up a shot down Ka or Mi8 and then pick it up with scripts and get it back to base for repairs? Or for a player not to be able to respawn if not killed or not respawn for a certain period after death?

 

I've safely landed my whirlybirds with most pieces missing many times before, but then came that moment of realisation: "I'm down, now what? I can't repair, I can't get back to base, no-one can pick me up, no-one can do an Arma2 thing and bring me a repair truck..."

 

Which meant I had to respawn/relog, something that I was trying to instinctively AVOID by landing the thing safely in the first place!

 

So, in the end all that effort was for nothing and it left me feeling severely disappointed and frustrated/angry.

 

.

About Spamraams and F15/Su I would say this: as with other Russian-made games I've sometimes seen accusations of Russian bias by players here as well.

 

But just as with those other games I find it strange since this bias is AGAINST Russian equipment and NOT for, even if well documented facts claim that a specific part of Russian arsenal was just as good if not better than Western. Amraam is almost a one-shot wonder, while the ER and ET sometimes work and sometimes dont. But R-77? I've shot off dozens of them and not a single one has landed a hit till now. Even though according to all the reports it's better than Amraam. That has to be a bug, because not even I can be that bloody useless and I'm pretty bad.

 

In BVR I'm mostly toast as soon as the F-15 detects me and decides to engage me because of their superior radar and rwr (why do we need to have an old version of 27 and why not newer with better stuff? I would kill for Su-30MKI even without multicrew) and my poor defensive skills. At least, when it comes to cannon-fight, I can still outturn that 15...

[DarkFire]

While on topic of missions: what I would like to have in missions is some kind of recovery system for shot down pilots and planes/choppers.

 

I know there was a squadron that in their weekly insider ops they had chopper pilots picking up shot down jet pilots and delivering them to base so they could take another plane and get back into battle. The friend who was part of that sadly can't tell me anymore which squdron it was, since it's been a while. But the idea is fantastic.

 

It would really demand of players to actually be tactical and try to survive.

 

Would it really be that hard to script an AI Mi-26 to come pick up a shot down Ka or Mi8 and then pick it up with scripts and get it back to base for repairs? Or for a player not to be able to respawn if not killed or not respawn for a certain period after death?

 

 

I think it might be possible to do that using MIST and a couple of scripts people have concocted. I completely agree that surviving ought to have a benefit beyond personal satisfaction. An interim solution might be to limit the number of a given aircraft type at a given airfield using the airfield "warehouse" settings in the editor. The problem then of course would be that players would be allocated aircraft on a first-come-first-served basis so joining a session late might artificially restrict what one could fly. Not sure what the answer to this might be... :huh:

[tovivan]

I think it might be possible to do that using MIST and a couple of scripts people have concocted. I completely agree that surviving ought to have a benefit beyond personal satisfaction. An interim solution might be to limit the number of a given aircraft type at a given airfield using the airfield "warehouse" settings in the editor. The problem then of course would be that players would be allocated aircraft on a first-come-first-served basis so joining a session late might artificially restrict what one could fly. Not sure what the answer to this might be... :huh:

 

Haven't done any mission scripting in DCS (but others have told me the editor is not as powerful as in the Operation Flashpoint - Arma series where I had some experience) so I can only guess what is possible in it and not.

 

Bare bones of my idea: you call for help through communications, an AI Mi-26 is dispatched to your location. Hopefully it doesn't get shot down (maybe is invulnerable?). As soon as it gets to you it either lands to make it more "immersive" or not. Anyway, script runs and suddenly you're not in your wounded bird anymore, but are looking at the AI mi-26 through the F2 view as it flies back to base.

 

From there 2 possibilities:

1. The script deletes your chopper. On arrival to base a new chopper is spawned and you put into it

 

2. using the "attach to" command (er, does DCS have that?) your chopper is attached by invisible means some meters under the Mi-26, which then flies back to base. Remember the sling rope in Arma2 ACE, this is the same principle. Doesn't look good, but it works. As it approaches/lands at the base, you are transported back into your chopper that is teleported onto some parking position on base. You can then repair. More script intensive because it needs to record your chopper's damage state.

 

 

Same procedure (minus helicopter parts) would be implemented for downed jet pilots. Mi-26 comes to them, F2 on it, flight back home, new plane spawned. Either that or player pilot who, when lands, uses communications menu to embark troops and goes back to base. At base a trigger that triggers by the downed pilot coming into it a new plane spawned.

 

 

Another version is for a convoy (repair, refuel and rearm trucks) being despatched to you that then provide help in the field. Which would be REALISTIC, just look at Russian Afghanistan experience... many downed choppers were repaired where they crash landed if damage was light enough and then they flew back home. Otherwise they were transported back to base and repaired there or sent back to factory. The excellent docu "Mi-24 The Warrior" mentions it and maybe as well the "Mi-8: The Magnificent Eight". Both docus were produced by Wings of Russia studio and are in English.

 

Sadly this would mean scripts running and that is a no-no in this game that already doesn't shine in regards to optimisation.

[winchesterdelta1]

Amraam is almost a one-shot wonder, while the ER and ET sometimes work and sometimes dont. But R-77? I've shot off dozens of them and not a single one has landed a hit till now. Even though according to all the reports it's better than Amraam. That has to be a bug, because not even I can be that bloody useless and I'm pretty bad.

 

In BVR I'm mostly toast as soon as the F-15 detects me and decides to engage me because of their superior radar and rwr (why do we need to have an old version of 27 and why not newer with better stuff? I would kill for Su-30MKI even without multicrew) and my poor defensive skills. At least, when it comes to cannon-fight, I can still outturn that 15...

 

I disagree. The AMRAAM can be easily spoofed.. It's far from a one shot one hit wonder. But these day's the players in MP become better and better and only take shots that have a high probability of a hit. Most of the time i don't even need to fire defensive shots trying to force the bandit defensive. Only against other F-15's. The SU-27 has to fire early to try and get you in the defensive. But that means their hit rate go's down. Also the SA in the F-15 makes the tactics you have to perform more clear and F-15 pilots actually work together. A lot of times there is maybe only 2 to 5 people on the red Team Speak while there are 8 to 15 players on Blue Team Speak. And even than the red Team Speak does not talk to each-other or only talk general stuff that has nothing to do with the flying on that server.

99% of the time i fly F-15. But today i flew SU-27. And i got 3 kills and got in a fight with two F-15's in one flight. If i would have had a wingman it would go even better. I suck in flying the SU-27 so you should be more capable than me and score some kills.

 

So to get more kills in the SU-27 you need to get better SA and fly with a wingman. Suddenly those missiles won't be that bad anymore.

 

Check my latest vid on my Winchesterdelta1 youtube channel and you see it's not all that bad. The only thing bad is me :)

 

[tovivan]

I disagree. The AMRAAM can be easily spoofed..

 

Yes, if I was you, but I am not as good. :smilewink:

 

Too many times the thing gives only a second's warning before it impacts. Seriously, there have been too many times when I was flying and paying careful attention to Beryoza, which was quiet, looking at my IRST at every alt and direction and my six while I flew zig-zag or circle to make sure I wasn't overseeing something, when I suddenly explode and am reported as a 120 kill. Either that or I got spammed by Spamraams intead of having just one after me.

 

And again, I've never been as good a fighter pilot as some. Even though I enjoy fighters it seems that being close to the ground, sneaking among hills and carefully stalking my prey before launching Vikhrs is more where my place is.

 

IIRC you don't get a warning over SPO if the F15 locks you with the TWS, right?

 

A lot of times there is maybe only 2 to 5 people on the red Team Speak while there are 8 to 15 players on Blue Team Speak. And even than the red Team Speak does not talk to each-other or only talk general stuff that has nothing to do with the flying on that server.

 

That's sadly true on the 104, one of the reasons I haven't been there in a long while. It made it pretty senseless to even be on TS. Or on the server itself when some of the admins logged in and then the real slaughter of red forces started. A noob has not a snowball's chance in hell of surviving in such an environment.

 

There were one or two good pilots occasionally willing to offer advice, one occasionally willing to actually teach in a wing, but even those eventually switched over to F15 and the enemy side, thus draining the pool of qualified/helpful people even more.

 

UNLESS you're flying an F-15 of course, then you can find many teachers and many wingmates.

 

104 was not a friendly sky for a noob red pilot.

 

Other reason was lack of Mi-8 tasking. When I last flew there there were only about 2 or 3 missions rotating and only 1 had an Mi-8 tasking that wasn't a senseless suicide run against a city full of zsu-23 emplacements (no wonder no-one flew the Eight) and the last mission didn't even have a Mi-8 task at all. And that good mission (I think Bison) was least played of all, mostly it was Archer iirc. I enjoyed the Night Bison even more, but it was on sadly too rarely.

 

I suck in flying the SU-27 so you should be more capable than me and score some kills.

 

Thanks for the high praise of my skills, but I'm afraid you are overestimating them. You fly combat regularly, I haven't in many months, not sure if this year at all. Only on aerobatics server and even that the 21 mostly instead of 27 or 29.

 

Maybe I'll try combat again, will just have to find a server that will be noob friendly and have people cooperating. :pilotfly:

[tovivan]

I think it might be possible to do that using MIST and a couple of scripts people have concocted. I completely agree that surviving ought to have a benefit beyond personal satisfaction. An interim solution might be to limit the number of a given aircraft type at a given airfield using the airfield "warehouse" settings in the editor. The problem then of course would be that players would be allocated aircraft on a first-come-first-served basis so joining a session late might artificially restrict what one could fly. Not sure what the answer to this might be... :huh:

 

Found something wonderful!

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=110837

Something like what we talked about actually exists. :D

Now off to contact main server mission makers if they would consider putting it in their missions. :D

[tovivan]

Recent single-player experience in a mission that is from a now-defunct server.

 

1 ER at about 15 km range at a hard-maneuvering F-16 in fight with a friendly AI. Hit and kill.

 

1 ET at a steady-flying B1B from about 7 km, was on his 5 o'clock, catching up. B1B didn't deploy any flare that I saw, but for some reason the ET just failed to track and flew past it aimlessly.

 

Shot another ET from his 6 o'clock, 5km, hit. Both locked with IRST. 1 ER as it was burning, but flying, 3 km, hit and final kill.

 

Later, 1 ER at a F-16 from 7 o'clock (I was shooting up) that was going for the deck in a gentle left dive, range 10 km. ER got fooled by chaff and missed. Another ER 7 or 5 km range, again miss. 1 R-73 from 3km from his 7 o'clock before I flew past his six, miss, no flares visible, lock with vertical. A minute later another R-73 miss from his 3 o'clock, roughly same distance, lock with HMS.

 

Bug out due to no ordinance left and due to his buddy nearby (for some strange reason neither of them engaged me).

 

Don't have any track or video or even TacView (cause I don't have it period), so take that as a hear-say, but it made for very strange (and slightly disappointing) flight.

Edited August 6, 2015 by tovivan

[Ironhand]

Recent single-player experience in a mission that is from a now-defunct server.

 

1 ER at about 15 km range at a hard-maneuvering F-16 in fight with a friendly AI. Hit and kill.

 

1 ET at a steady-flying B1B from about 7 km, was on his 5 o'clock, catching up. B1B didn't deploy any flare that I saw, but for some reason the ET just failed to track and flew past it aimlessly.

 

Shot another ET from his 6 o'clock, 5km, hit. Both locked with IRST. 1 ER as it was burning, but flying, 3 km, hit and final kill.

 

Later, 1 ER at a F-16 from 7 o'clock (I was shooting up) that was going for the deck in a gentle left dive, range 10 km. ER got fooled by chaff and missed. Another ER 7 or 5 km range, again miss. 1 R-73 from 3km from his 7 o'clock before I flew past his six, miss, no flares visible, lock with vertical. A minute later another R-73 miss from his 3 o'clock, roughly same distance, lock with HMS.

 

Bug out due to no ordinance left and due to his buddy nearby (for some strange reason neither of them engaged me).

 

Don't have any track or video or even TacView (cause I don't have it period), so take that as a hear-say, but it made for very strange (and slightly disappointing) flight.

I'm not sure the B-1B is the right bird to cite. Doesn't it have IR countermeasures (I don't mean flares) somewhat akin to the Su-25T's? I thought I had read that somewhere.

[tovivan]

I'm not sure the B-1B is the right bird to cite. Doesn't it have IR countermeasures (I don't mean flares) somewhat akin to the Su-25T's? I thought I had read that somewhere.

 

Honestly I have no idea. I mentioned it to give full picture of the sortie and to account for the two otherwise-missing ET's. :) But would that IR jammer still trick a missile from such a close launching range? I mean I was practically on his six, so those huge engines were a massive heat signature.

 

Btw., Ironhand, I checked out your flanker tutorials and was wondering... considering the advances in the games and updates and so on since they were made, how up-to-date/correct are they still?

[Ironhand]

Honestly I have no idea. I mentioned it to give full picture of the sortie and to account for the two otherwise-missing ET's. :) But would that IR jammer still trick a missile from such a close launching range? I mean I was practically on his six, so those huge engines were a massive heat signature.

 

Btw., Ironhand, I checked out your flanker tutorials and was wondering... considering the advances in the games and updates and so on since they were made, how up-to-date/correct are they still?

I'm not sure either. I imagine that stuff's classified so...

 

As far as my site is concerned, the old tutorials that dealt with systems still pretty much apply (radar, etc.). The biggest change has been in missile behavior. So videos discussing missile behavior are now suspect. :) I've replaced my old site with my Flankertraining YouTube channel. I've been transferring videos that still have validity from the old site to there. It's also where I'll be adding new content.

[DarkFire]

Found something wonderful!

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=110837

Something like what we talked about actually exists. :D

Now off to contact main server mission makers if they would consider putting it in their missions. :D

 

Aha! Very good find! That could add some much needed immersion to some missions.