SU27 R27ER missile guidance VS F15C

[Frostie]

Ironhand is too humble to propose to you to visit his website. Click the picture on his signature. On that website, you will find a couple of videos to download. They might have been made with old versions of the game (Falming Cliffs 1), but the principles remain the same. Especially give a look to the tutorial where he makes us of the clock in the cockpit of the Su27.

 

Yes, Ironhands tutorials are SARHvARH to the letter, but in FC1 the ER outflew the AMRAAM and missiles could easily make kills from over 70km.

 

In FC3 there is very little flight time between the two, so in a 1v1 situation where the pilots are equally matched the F-15 should win. He can extend before impact leaving you to defeat his missile or extend. It is doable but it requires a lot of good timing and missile avoiding but competent F-15 pilots won't let you bully them so easy, they will use their speed advantage, extend and let another engage you.

 

This is all in a straight up bvr fight, other methods are easier but you're putting yourself in a bad place which is not good for survival and a lot of the time survival only happens in this situation because of missile quirks.

The best thing to do is buddy up and out number.

[Grigs]

so in a 1v1 situation where the pilots are equally matched the F-15 should win

I totally agree ,)

[Ironhand]

...

In FC3 there is very little flight time between the two, so in a 1v1 situation where the pilots are equally matched the F-15 should win. He can extend before impact leaving you to defeat his missile or extend. It is doable but it requires a lot of good timing and missile avoiding but competent F-15 pilots won't let you bully them so easy, they will use their speed advantage, extend and let another engage you. ...

In the following, I am only speaking of a 1v1 situation, since that was the OPs viewpoint.

 

True, FC3 missile behavior changes the geometry of the fight but I don't necessarily agree that the advantage automatically goes to the F-15 driver. The Eagle driver has two distinct advantages; an ARH missile and TWS. There's a degree of "stealth" in his favor. I cannot be certain of if/when he launched out of TWS. As a result, I don't know exactly when and with how much energy that AMRAAM will arrive on my doorstep. If I haven't been paying attention, I could be caught completely by surprise and, then, the advantage definitely goes to the Eagle.

 

But, from my cockpit, this is what I know. I know the earliest point at which he can launch and roughly how much time it will take for his first missile to arrive on my doorstep. I also know roughly how much energy that missile will have when it does and what direction it'll be coming from. If that time passes and no missile announces itself on my Beriosa, I know that any subsequent missile will have more smash but, by that time, I have my own missile in the air with enough energy of its that it needs to be respected as well. From that point on I tend to see the fight as a fair one with neither driver having an automatic advantage.

 

The Beriosa, my opponent's aspect, our relative altitudes, etc will let me know how aggressive I can remain. Again, this is a 1v1 situation where each driver knows what aircraft he's up against.

 

Wingmen change the equation completely. Once I was online with a friend and we were playing tag with an F-15 driver and his wingie. We were sharing the same TS channel--I forget why--and this was before I ever sat in the F-15's pit. It was an eye opener to hear the wingman, who was sitting back act as his leader's eyes, call out our every move as his leader pressed the attack. The situational awareness provided by the Eagle's systems is truly incredible. Nevermind that he could have gone on the attack at any time as well.

 

Rich

[deckard]

Hello everyone. Thank you for your responses. I used to have TacView Professional. However, it does not record multiplayer sessions. IronHand, I am good against the AI. I have used TacView extensively to set-up different scenarios and view how the missiles behave. AI is very predictable. He always launches at Rmax and does not follow up with additional missiles (AIM120C). I launch between Rmin and Rtr. I only launch at Rmax if I am using R27ER at a very high altitude (human opponents) to put the F15 on the defensive (I don't know if that is a good idea though, they are good at running away if they want to). The old video tutorials are good, but they teach to do a last ditch maneuver (bank aircraft 20 degrees, put the missile at 30 degrees and pull back on the stick when there is 1 light left on Beryoza). This maneuver works (sometimes).

What i noticed on-line is exactly what IronHand is saying. Good F15 pilots are always extending (after firing) (they have to deal with my longer stick R27ER though). I wish i could see it on Tacview, but i cant record the multiplayer match. Even their technical support could not help me.

[Furious]

Maybe the server you fly on has it disabled. Some will let you record Tacview though.

[srky]

Deckard, just run the recording of your multiplayer mission again, with tacview on, it will record it then.

[Frostie]

In the following, I am only speaking of a 1v1 situation, since that was the OPs viewpoint.

 

True, FC3 missile behavior changes the geometry of the fight but I don't necessarily agree that the advantage automatically goes to the F-15 driver. The Eagle driver has two distinct advantages; an ARH missile and TWS. There's a degree of "stealth" in his favor. I cannot be certain of if/when he launched out of TWS. As a result, I don't know exactly when and with how much energy that AMRAAM will arrive on my doorstep. If I haven't been paying attention, I could be caught completely by surprise and, then, the advantage definitely goes to the Eagle.

 

But, from my cockpit, this is what I know. I know the earliest point at which he can launch and roughly how much time it will take for his first missile to arrive on my doorstep. I also know roughly how much energy that missile will have when it does and what direction it'll be coming from. If that time passes and no missile announces itself on my Beriosa, I know that any subsequent missile will have more smash but, by that time, I have my own missile in the air with enough energy of its that it needs to be respected as well. From that point on I tend to see the fight as a fair one with neither driver having an automatic advantage.

 

The Beriosa, my opponent's aspect, our relative altitudes, etc will let me know how aggressive I can remain. Again, this is a 1v1 situation where each driver knows what aircraft he's up against.

The advantage with the F-15 is that he always knows when you've launched an ER, flying an F-15 I can time my extend to the tune of your launch. If you launch at me early that gives me more time to delay the launch of my AMRAAM, giving it more energy when it arrives. Before extending i'll let off an AMRAAM your way just to make sure you don't press too hard after me, that is providing my first delayed AMRAAM doesn't get you. I have the speed and altitude advantage over the Flanker to get good separation and turn back in for more of the same, this way i'm always in an advantageous position, never playing into the Flankers hands, timing is everything and knowing when to time is paramount, unfortunately for the Flanker in BVR it gives away everything and hides nothing.

Now pull this over the mountains then things get much trickier.

[deckard]

I don't know why my message did not get posted. Anyway, in regards to TacView. In my Users/User Name/SavedGames/DCS/Tracks/Multiplayer I only have 1 replay file from a long time ago. My multiplayer sessions are not saved in that folder (or any folder on my PC). I ran a search *.trk and those files are no where to be found. It is obvious that when I play multiplayer, those tracks are not saved on my PC for future replay. (So, there is nothing to replay in TacView) . I suppose that this is done by the server to discourage cheating.

[SAM77]

I don't know why my message did not get posted. Anyway, in regards to TacView. In my Users/User Name/SavedGames/DCS/Tracks/Multiplayer I only have 1 replay file from a long time ago. My multiplayer sessions are not saved in that folder (or any folder on my PC). I ran a search *.trk and those files are no where to be found. It is obvious that when I play multiplayer, those tracks are not saved on my PC for future replay. (So, there is nothing to replay in TacView) . I suppose that this is done by the server to discourage cheating.

 

There is something wrong with your install of DCS. Maybe try a repair. I have been on a server with you and I have tracks from that server. You should too and that was within a months time frame.

 

Some posts were lost when the forum got put back online. Theres was a lilttle note at the top of the Main forum index page.

[Boberro]

When I played FC, sometimes I tried to fire ER beyond its range, purposely making it waste missile due to known reasons. However quite often of these cases opponent thought - WTF so early - and after while he panicked and tried to move right\left so on while I was closing enough. Rest of procedure is known.

 

However for more advanced players it was fouly, they knew it was bluff.

[FlankerNation]

Hi Deckard,

 

Just checkout this YT video. First kill is the Eagle and Flanker followed. Anyway check out the tactics and the radar usage by the Flanker Pilot.

 

In DCS WORLD Eagle will always have the advantage unless we will see any future modern 4++ generation Russian fighter jet module yet. Till then, we flankers lovers have to learn how to knife fight with EAGLES in SAMURAI styles !

 

Checkout this VIDEO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bO8ZJT2AeU

[SFJackBauer]

Just checkout this YT video. First kill is the Eagle and Flanker followed. Anyway check out the tactics and the radar usage by the Flanker Pilot.

 

That was a nice video! That said, don't get me wrong, but that is not a good reference on tactics/radar employment.

 

First engagement was a EOS kill, a good kill, but a bit of a brainfart from that F-15. He had an inbound 27ER, didnt looked at its source for whatever reason. If he did, a 120 would be certainly inbound the Flanker.

 

4:30 - The RWR indicates a hostile very close, if an F-15 inside launch zone with TWS. But the Flanker keeps pressing ahead.

 

5:03 - as expected, slammer inbound. The Flanker incorrectly identifies a friendly popping flares, which is totally opposite the hostile heading, as the bandit. And then proceeds to reduce his energy still with a slammer inbound. Only survived because of DCS missile stupidity.

 

5:21 he says "defensive again" but thats actually still the same missile.

 

5:29 you can see the AMRAAM narrowly missing him, while someone else takes down the hostile that didn't launched any more missiles, for whatever reason.

 

5:59 entered a turning fight with an F-15, but didnt used any of the close-combat radar modes, or the helmet mode.

 

6:41 trying to use the long-range scan to lock a nearby target, ended up locking another hostile way far. Should have used the boresight radar mode.

 

Last engagement also could have used any of the close-combat radar modes to lock the target within visual range. Also there was a lack of usage of radar range (number on bottom of hud), elevation and azimuth to scan bvr.

 

Dont take me wrong, the video was entertaining and, in the heat of the combat, the mistakes are what make good stories. :)

[Frostie]

Just checkout this YT video. First kill is the Eagle and Flanker followed. Anyway check out the tactics and the radar usage by the Flanker Pilot.

Sorry but that vid is very poor presentation of how to fly a Flanker.

[GGTharos]

Agreed with Frostie ... if you fly like that against a coordinated pair of F-86's or MiG-15's, you're in trouble. ;)

[FlankerNation]

Agreed

 

Sorry but that vid is very poor presentation of how to fly a Flanker.

 

Agreed he could have used CAC or HM mode in later stages. Just wanted show how he was detecting the targets in earlier stages.

 

Anyway, we all know in DCS World Eagles has the advantages. Even if you put two best arm chair pilots one in Eagle and one in Flanker, in DCS World the kill ratio will go for Eagle of 1:3. Very rare cases if the Eagle pilots makes a mistake you will have 1:2 or 1:1.

 

That's why we need later generations Flanker's. Atleast SM or SM2 and just imagine if had the DCS Su35s... it will be banger :drunk:

[FlankerNation]

That was a nice video! That said, don't get me wrong, but that is not a good reference on tactics/radar employment.

 

First engagement was a EOS kill, a good kill, but a bit of a brainfart from that F-15. He had an inbound 27ER, didnt looked at its source for whatever reason. If he did, a 120 would be certainly inbound the Flanker.

 

4:30 - The RWR indicates a hostile very close, if an F-15 inside launch zone with TWS. But the Flanker keeps pressing ahead.

 

5:03 - as expected, slammer inbound. The Flanker incorrectly identifies a friendly popping flares, which is totally opposite the hostile heading, as the bandit. And then proceeds to reduce his energy still with a slammer inbound. Only survived because of DCS missile stupidity.

 

5:21 he says "defensive again" but thats actually still the same missile.

 

5:29 you can see the AMRAAM narrowly missing him, while someone else takes down the hostile that didn't launched any more missiles, for whatever reason.

 

5:59 entered a turning fight with an F-15, but didnt used any of the close-combat radar modes, or the helmet mode.

 

6:41 trying to use the long-range scan to lock a nearby target, ended up locking another hostile way far. Should have used the boresight radar mode.

 

Last engagement also could have used any of the close-combat radar modes to lock the target within visual range. Also there was a lack of usage of radar range (number on bottom of hud), elevation and azimuth to scan bvr.

 

Dont take me wrong, the video was entertaining and, in the heat of the combat, the mistakes are what make good stories. :)

 

Agreed :thumbup:

[USARStarkey]

Agreed he could have used CAC or HM mode in later stages. Just wanted show how he was detecting the targets in earlier stages.

 

Anyway, we all know in DCS World Eagles has the advantages. Even if you put two best arm chair pilots one in Eagle and one in Flanker, in DCS World the kill ratio will go for Eagle of 1:3. Very rare cases if the Eagle pilots makes a mistake you will have 1:2 or 1:1.

 

That's why we need later generations Flanker's. Atleast SM or SM2 and just imagine if had the DCS Su35s... it will be banger :drunk:

 

No, no we do not. The F-15 and Su-27 are historical equivalents--in spirit if not by time. If you start adding all the fringe versions of the Flanker---all of which exist in paltry numbers in any single air-force---your going to hear the Americans clamor for F-22's, since there are more of those in the US Air-force than any single non S version of the Flanker, and in most cases there are more Raptors than all the upgraded flanker variants combined in any single air-force. At a bare minimum, if you add Gen 4++ aircraft then your going to see 90deg+ aim9x's and AIM-120D's and perhaps APG63v2 or v3. The current aircraft selection is the most historical and the most balanced and should remain as such seeing as they haven't even finished modeling the systems of the aircraft we currently have, and there are still features left to add.

[RIPTIDE]

your going to hear the Americans clamor for F-22's, since there are more of those in the US Air-force than any single non S version of the Flanker, and in most cases there are more Raptors than all the upgraded flanker variants combined in any single air-force. .

India passed the 200 mark with the Su-30MKI...

[KLR Rico]

I'm pretty awful in the FC3 jets so I've been trying to practice more, but this is what has been fresh in my memory.

 

I've been flying a 50-50 split between the flanker and eagle. Both certainly need their own tactics.

 

With either plane, I find it's best to keep the radar off until I'm close to bullseye (<40 nm), and I almost never use ECM. Either one of those too early just announces your position to the world.

 

I don't have much luck flying the Su-27 head-to-head BVR vs the F-15. My best hope in that case is to keep notching his missiles and try to get into a WVR fight. I think the best use of the flanker is to, well, flank. Using terrain masking and the IRST to try to get on the enemy's side of bullseye and come up from the side and below while the enemy is distracted by their head-to-head engagements with your team.

 

In the eagle I try to use TWS as much as possible and take advantage of the ARH missiles, holding off fire until they're as close to the no-escape range as I dare.

[USARStarkey]

India passed the 200 mark with the Su-30MKI...

 

Only extremely recently, And I wouldn't consider them to be a likely US enemy either.

[RIPTIDE]

Only extremely recently, And I wouldn't consider them to be a likely US enemy either.

I think the point is that numbers fielded don't make a great argument about inclusion into DCS etc.

 

The cornerstone of DCSW is the Su-25T. How many of them are about? Ka-50? A dozen? I remember it was discussed before that the Multi TWS shot ability might have been in place of half a dozen or so APG-63, at that particular time... but I wouldn't use low production run either, as some excuse to restrict the feature.

 

The other point of course is that, there's lots of Su-27X variant examples nowadays.

 

As for variants, for me personally I consider everything from Su-27-35 as basically the one jet, modified. To use some sort of an analogue maybe F-15A/C/E. Just that in the Su-27 line, UAC/Su went nuts with the marketing and numbers. lol

[USARStarkey]

I think the point is that numbers fielded don't make a great argument about inclusion into DCS etc.

 

The cornerstone of DCSW is the Su-25T. How many of them are about? Ka-50? A dozen? I remember it was discussed before that the Multi TWS shot ability might have been in place of half a dozen or so APG-63, at that particular time... but I wouldn't use low production run either, as some excuse to restrict the feature.

 

The other point of course is that, there's lots of Su-27X variant examples nowadays.

 

As for variants, for me personally I consider everything from Su-27-35 as basically the one jet, modified. To use some sort of an analogue maybe F-15A/C/E. Just that in the Su-27 line, UAC/Su went nuts with the marketing and numbers. lol

 

For me it depends on how it affects general authenticity. Having something like a Su-25T isnt too big a deal because it isnt something that is plane vs plane. Throwing in all the Flanker variants is lopsided because there aren't ant direct production F-15 equivalents that could be added to balance it out. The Russians opted to further the Su-27, and Americans made a whole new airplane--the F-22. For most of the last 20 years the F-15C and Su-27S made up the bulk of the the respective air-forces inventory of those models. Su-30s were hardly even an issue until after the mid-2000's as they did not exist in any significant numbers (and still largely do not) before this. Adding planes like this in is like adding a Raptor without the stealth. You'd have the most powerful radar in the game, thrust vectoring, supercruise, and improved EOS, among other things. However, if you add the Raptor in it doesnt balance the game out, it just throws it back in the opposite direction several fold. That being said, im not opposed to newer models of these planes if both sides get new aircraft/weapons that are representative of the parallel developments in both nations. To me this is about the game possessing historical perspective.

 

In short, aircraft should be added if they are representative of their parent air forces inventory as a whole, not just because they exist. If something on the fringe is modeled, if should be accompanied by something similar from the other side.

[TAW_Blaze]

Neil

 

The funny thing is that we have these planes with a seemingly random set of capability. Eagles flying around with C5 slammer that's from around the border of 20th/21st century while not having a datalink that existed a decade before. Obviously this is just one example of it but it works like that all over the game.

Edited October 16, 2014 by <Blaze>

[RIPTIDE]

Neil

 

The funny thing is that we have these planes with a seemingly random set of capability. Eagles flying around with C5 slammer that's from around the border of 20th/21st century while not having a datalink that existed a decade before. Obviously this is just one example of it but it works like that all over the game.

Oh, I know. I don't disagree. But anyways... :joystick:

[FlankerNation]

Nope

 

For me it depends on how it affects general authenticity. Having something like a Su-25T isnt too big a deal because it isnt something that is plane vs plane. Throwing in all the Flanker variants is lopsided because there aren't ant direct production F-15 equivalents that could be added to balance it out. The Russians opted to further the Su-27, and Americans made a whole new airplane--the F-22. For most of the last 20 years the F-15C and Su-27S made up the bulk of the the respective air-forces inventory of those models. Su-30s were hardly even an issue until after the mid-2000's as they did not exist in any significant numbers (and still largely do not) before this. Adding planes like this in is like adding a Raptor without the stealth. You'd have the most powerful radar in the game, thrust vectoring, supercruise, and improved EOS, among other things. However, if you add the Raptor in it doesnt balance the game out, it just throws it back in the opposite direction several fold. That being said, im not opposed to newer models of these planes if both sides get new aircraft/weapons that are representative of the parallel developments in both nations. To me this is about the game possessing historical perspective.

 

In short, aircraft should be added if they are representative of their parent air forces inventory as a whole, not just because they exist. If something on the fringe is modeled, if should be accompanied by something similar from the other side.

 

Historical possessing ... no way man than why we are have mig21bis or even a DCS F-18 (super hornet or normal hornet). Your argument does not make any sense.

 

Let it be DCS F35 A, Let it be DCS F15SE ... so let it Su27x family in DCS WORLD. This is nothing to do with representative of their parent air forces inventory as a whole.

 

We have Typhoon and others in the pipeline so why not the modern flankers ?

 

Algeria have modern Flankers and as Raptide mention India has 200+ MKI and many other nations have also.

 

Regardless of who is America's enemy is or not.... you are suggesting is DCS WORLD modeled more are around the Favor of USA Airforce ? Really ?

 

With PFM Eagle Dynamics gave a opportunity or open the door to us Military SIM pilots to experience vary of jets we love to fly.

 

As much I love to see Modern Flankers, Let it be Tornados, Mirages, Grippens.

 

Really DCS WORLD is nothing to do with this theory Adding new Jets representative of their parent air forces inventory as a whole.