SU27 R27ER missile guidance VS F15C

[deckard]

Hello everyone. Thank you again for all your responses. This is Deckard again with all his questions LOL.

 

My question is about tactics VS F15C using AIM120C. I know that I have to guide the missile to the target. I can only go left or right no more than 60 degrees from the target. I am also limited how much I can climb or descend.

There is no way I can put the enemy missile at my 3 or 9 o'clock because I will loose my lock.

 

I notice that F15 pilots, shoot AIM120C at 20-25KM (head on) at an altitude of 7000 meters. Then, they nose dive to 400 meters, do a 180 degree turn and simply fly away and might circle a little. Great tactic and it works. However, what do I do? I dive , put my nose to the right 55 degrees and bam, his AIM120C gets me. I can't turn around because I need to guide the missile.

 

I was trying to bank the aircraft 20 degrees to the right and pull up on the stick when there is only 1 light remaining on RWS. This last ditch maneuver does not work well for me.

 

I can also crawl on the ground at 400 meters and try my chances there.

 

Should I fire from a greater distance (40-50KM) to put F15 on the defensive? Most of the time they use ECM, so this is not really happening, I suppose.

 

I try to shoot my R27ER from a minimum range of 25KM, because anything before (30KM or more), the missile will never reach it's target.

 

I never shoot missiles one after another. I shoot at 25-30KM, then a second one from 20KM, then 15KM. This tactic works if my missile reaches him first. However, because I need to guide that missile, once the bandit is dead (if I am lucky, his AIM120C gets me, because I have not time to maneuver at that point.

 

Can someone give me a correct method of guiding R27ER while avoiding the AIM120C? (they always shoot at me :) ) So , I need to avoid the missile.

If the bandit is using ECM and I did not burn through him yet ( should I shoot in HOJ?) I am not sure if R27ER can do that, but I know that AIM120C can.

 

Thank you so much for your responses. Please share your tactics with me.

[Buckeye]

Plain and simple? Don't fire a non-active missile when you've had an active missile fired at you. I can't really think of any other options or tactics you could use to safely and reliably defeat the AIM-120 while still guiding your ER, outside of firing much earlier and the Eagle pilot being clueless. That said I don't fly the Russian jets currently and perhaps a much better pilot of the Russian jets can provide some better insight for you. Fire and snake with the bandit to the right gimbal, then move him to the left, then back, in hope that the 120 pisses it's energy away before it gets to you? That seems very risky, but it would at least burn energy and cause the 120 to fly a longer path, and hopefully your missile could get to the Eagle pilot. Still, the Eagle pilot would have to be asleep to not know to turn defensive while you're still flying nose hot guiding your missile.

 

Regarding HOJ shots, it's worth noting that with the current modeling they are worthless because the range is so far that only a brain dead pilot couldn't maneuver to defeat the missile. At best, they provide psychological effect to the bandit.

[deckard]

Thank you Buckeye so much for your response. I hope more responses will follow :) If I move to the right and then to the left (provided the bandit F15 fired at me from 25KM, then I will loose a lot of energy myself). I also think that changing altitude (going low and then high) definitely helps to shake off the missile. However, I do not have much time (while guiding my own missile) to perform all those maneuvers.

Buckeye, how do you think R77 (MIG29S) stack up against AIM120C. Is it much worse? MIG29S is much smaller than SU27 and F15C. Does this smaller target harder for AIM120C to hit?

Thank you Buckeye again for your response. I hope that some pro SU27 or MIG29S pilot will respond as well :)

[Buckeye]

Thank you Buckeye so much for your response. I hope more responses will follow :) If I move to the right and then to the left (provided the bandit F15 fired at me from 25KM, then I will loose a lot of energy myself). I also think that changing altitude (going low and then high) definitely helps to shake off the missile. However, I do not have much time (while guiding my own missile) to perform all those maneuvers.

Buckeye, how do you think R77 (MIG29S) stack up against AIM120C. Is it much worse? MIG29S is much smaller than SU27 and F15C. Does this smaller target harder for AIM120C to hit?

Thank you Buckeye again for your response. I hope that some pro SU27 or MIG29S pilot will respond as well :)

 

Minimizing closure in this situation is a very good thing...so, in this situation, you losing energy by snaking isn't the worst thing in the world.

 

I can't really give comment on the merits of the R77, the Mig-29, or the Su-27. I've driven the Flanker for a combined 5 minutes and I've never driven the Mig-29 (although I do own FC3). I can tell you that I die most often in MP to Mig-29's flying very low on the deck using terrain masking and hitting me with their mid-range IR missiles. I used to be very stubborn and go down after them in my Eagle, I've since learned to chose my battles more wisely.

 

Honestly, I don't know what jet I fear the most online. I don't really fear any other plane or any other pilots. Any time I die I consider it a mistake I made and not something the other pilot did right. So, going into any engagement I always enter under the mindset that I'm coming out alive and he isn't...the only thing I can say is that I like engaging with Eagles the most, because I know them very well and I know what I'm up against. It's always a relief to me to see IFF send back a F-15 signature. Until I learn the Su-27 and Mig-29, I don't fully understand what their advantages are over me, and that gives me a slight cause for concern.

 

** excuse any typos, posting from my phone.

[Leo Showers]

I wouldn't consider myself an amazing PvP pilot, but I've flown the MiG-29 online a fair bit so this is my opinion in regards to the MiG-29

 

The best thing about the R-77 is that you can carry them alongside R-27s, which means you have a much heavier long-range punch then allowed. The 77s provide a credible long range threat, which means that if ignored it can actually kill an oncoming F-15, but more likely then not they will go defensive, which is when I go full AB and close for a kill.

 

If I can't shoot them down quickly them the fight is basically over and I run away, there is no way a MiG-29 will be able to stand up to the sheer amount of fuel/missiles the F-15 has and you really need to kill them while they are defensive in order to win. This doesn't always work and if the F-15s are working together then it doesn't stand too much of a chance.

 

Final word of caution, I wouldn't recommend the R-77 as the primary attack missile, only because it does seem fairly easy to evade. I primarily use it to force them on the defensive, and use other missiles (even short-range AA) to kill them.

[Ironhand]

My goal vs F-15s is usually to close the range as quickly as possible. If you try to keep the range open, you're in a bad situation that's only going to get worse.

 

EDIT: just to expand a bit, in the situation you describe, you are at disadvantage in a BVR duel. So you need to gain every advantage you can. If you can turn it into a WVR duel, so much the better. Don't bore straight in because that's a death sentence. But I wouldn't necessarily keep him at the gimbal limits either. No matter what, you are trying to close the range and something short of those limits will help it to close faster. Everything is a tradeoff...risk vs gain.

 

 

Rich

Edited September 29, 2014 by Ironhand

[EAKMotorsports]

So if you fly Sukhoi in BVR u are always in bad situation?

[Raven68]

I usually don't chime in much on these type of threads because there is always sooo much to account for it seems and then I find myself becoming overwhelmed with information. Anyways from most of my encounters while flying the Su-27 online I seem find myself constantly on the defensive because of a steady barrage of 120's bearing down on me. This is mostly a result of someone spamraaming and to be honest I am guilty of it sometimes myself. I am now finding myself playing more with the Su-27 now because it is more challenging and rewarding to get a well earned kill, but I do find it hard to keep pressing the fight when I am engaged as described above. :joystick:

[blkspade]

You just aren't supposed to go head-on BVR vs an F-15. There are things that you can get away with, that will work against the more practiced Eagle driver on occasion, but they are largely based on bugs/exploits. Ambush tactics are really the best way to go, as opposed to having a competent wingman and good communication. Firing early/first does no good if you aren't in an advantageous position. Given the amount of info that can be extrapolated from the radar and tews, the Eagle driver can easily discern the level of urgency. Honestly the AFM gets me killed more often than anything else lately.

[deckard]

thank you guys for all the responses. Buckeye - I did not know that in F15C you can actually tell who you are targeting. No such thing on Russian planes. Closing the distance is a good idea, but how do I really do it? When I fire R27ER, I turn right, then turn left, go up and down. Is it what I am supposed to do in a head on battle? I understand that BVR is F15's specialty.

Can someone give me a specific example what do to when flying a SU27 VS F15 head on? Should I fire from a distance first to put him on the defensive from long range? From a distance, I mean 40-50KM, knowing that my missile won't reach the target. Keep the responses coming guys :) I learn a lot from you

[TaccoZ__Amigo1__]

I'm an Eagle Driver and I can tell you, that the Flanker has little chance of a kill in a longrange fight (fire extend recommit fire and so on...). BUT you can easily kill an F-15 IF you can drag him into the mountains or something similar and break his slammers lock by just diving towards the ground and hiding for a second. Then when he extends and is not smart enaugh to just disengage and choose another place to fight, there is a big chance that you can shoot him with an ET IRST only. This is only one tactic which got ME killed while I was in the Eagle quite some times :D

 

Regards TaccoZ

[Oberst Zeisig]

thank you guys for all the responses. Buckeye - I did not know that in F15C you can actually tell who you are targeting. No such thing on Russian planes. Closing the distance is a good idea, but how do I really do it? When I fire R27ER, I turn right, then turn left, go up and down. Is it what I am supposed to do in a head on battle? I understand that BVR is F15's specialty.

Can someone give me a specific example what do to when flying a SU27 VS F15 head on? Should I fire from a distance first to put him on the defensive from long range? From a distance, I mean 40-50KM, knowing that my missile won't reach the target. Keep the responses coming guys :) I learn a lot from you

 

There really is no "method" for the flanker vs. an Eagle in an open head on fight. Your biggest advantages are IRST sensor and the ET for stealth attacks. Use Your RWR. To point You roughly the right direction. Always when You're painted (close) hide when not engage. You can't just engage an eagle and this hide and seek game can last for minutes even up to flying home with all Your missiles on the rails. You have to enjoy flying the flanker itself ;).

[Ironhand]

So if you fly Sukhoi in BVR u are always in bad situation?

Oh, my god, no. The Flanker has been my weapon platform of choice since ED introduced me to her in 1997 or 8. She is my first and only love. The most beautiful and deadly aircraft in the sky. That said, however, I do not currently trust her primary BVR tool, the R-27ER, to give me the kind of pK I need to successfully and consistently prosecute a BVR duel. So I'd rather force the fight into closer quarters where I have more tools in the toolbox to select from. Once those tools come into play, the Eagle driver's life becomes far more complex.

 

 

Rich

[Erdem]

The answer seems to be "force a dogfight" yet people seem reluctant to suggest a way of doing it. Do you just plow your way through the AMRAAM spam? Perhaps you just turn away and hope the F-15 pilot gets bored? I'm interested in recent tactics of the Su-27 pilots as well, since I plan to return to FC and I'm very rusty.

 

I haven't been playing FC for 5 years and probably a lot of things have changed(especially regarding missiles) since then, but my tactic during that time was to fire an ER at max range head-on, force them to turn away early, break lock, dive, notch and evade the AMRAAM(s) (it was pretty easy since SPO shows how close the missile is), quickly reacquire lock and try my luck with another ER. At this point there are probably more AMRAAMs on the way so I either used my speed to try to defeat the second salvo while keeping the lock(since you dived you should have plenty of speed), or if I thought the situation was bad, I just fired an ET with or without(not sure if this is possible anymore) lock and hoped for a cheap kill while disengaging full afterburners. WVR fights rarely happened outside the missions involving the mountainous region in the south.

 

Anyways, I'm sure there are people who mastered the quirks of this plane lurking the forums so I'm also hopeful for a good response.

[SDsc0rch]

getting to the merge unobserved

 

how to do it.. how to do it.......

 

; )

[mattebubben]

I mostly fly the flanker and im in no way an ace but im learning.

If an enemy fires a Amraam and then extends do the same untill u are confident the amraam is no longer a threat then come around again.

At that point he has most likley also come around.

If u have fired and he has fired its usually better to go defensive (unless ur missile is close to inpact but even if u kill him he might get u aswell) and loose the missile.

I often try to stay low and close to mountains.

That way i can loose missiles and close in.

The 27ER is deadly especially if u can fire on an enemy that is not headon (no missile exchange)

and since u usually go with 4 27ER 2 27ET u can afford to waste a missile or 2.

Also if u have the chance u can respond with a ET if he fires a amraam before going defensive.

But generally id say if ur confident he has fired go defensive.

Especially if he has done so aswell.

Since most of the times i die in the 27 its due to trying to keep him locked in a missile exhange.

[USARStarkey]

The short answer is that you cant. There are all kinds of ways to sneak closer to a eagle and try to go WVR, or at least close enough to shoot a ET. However, all of them can be easily countered and if you are fighting a smart eagle pilot--especially with a wingman, you chances of getting close are next to nil. That being said, here are the best tactics for getting close:

 

1. Keep you radar off and track passively.

 

2. Stay low, preferably behind or near a mountain.

 

3. when detected, notch, or fly behind a mountain.

 

4. Once hidden, hope the eagle pilot is stupid enough to keep flying your direction without changing altitude or heading, keeps his radar on so you can track him passively, and eventually if you stay notched or obscured by terrain, he will eventually fly past your or over you. now your close enough to fight.

 

Be careful about the following:

 

1. If eagle has wingman, you can notch all you want, and his wing will still see you if they are spread out right.

 

2. Once you disappear, the eagle can require you simply by adjusting his heading and approaching at a different aspect. You can try to notch again, but you wont win a game of cat and mouse like that.

 

3. He can always just back off or descend low enough so that your notch doesn't work.

 

4. Be wary of super-high eagles. some people will fly super high with radar off and you wont see them in most cases. They wait till some mig or flanker turns on his dar to have a look-see and then they dive down and pounce, using med PRF to keep your tracked. A smart flanker pilot can notch these people, but they usually work in packs, and it can be very hard to find them if they are hiding above the con and are smart enough to keep their radar off when not needing it and bug out when they cant find you.

[will-]

Almost 3 pages and no one suggests that are using the ER incorrectly. Basically all this can be summed up in I ambush my target using a mig vs f15. A lot just jump into MP and don't take advantages of single player and learning how the game works. FYI I've shot tws2 in a mig using er's... I've shot targets with a ER dropped lock and required targets getting a surprise kill. Just se food for thought.

Edited September 30, 2014 by will-

[FLANKERATOR]

thank you guys for all the responses. Buckeye - I did not know that in F15C you can actually tell who you are targeting. No such thing on Russian planes. Closing the distance is a good idea, but how do I really do it? When I fire R27ER, I turn right, then turn left, go up and down. Is it what I am supposed to do in a head on battle? I understand that BVR is F15's specialty.

Can someone give me a specific example what do to when flying a SU27 VS F15 head on? Should I fire from a distance first to put him on the defensive from long range? From a distance, I mean 40-50KM, knowing that my missile won't reach the target. Keep the responses coming guys I learn a lot from you

 

What scenario (1on1/many vs many)?

Terrain type (mountainous/flat)?

What is your A2A task (actual kill or mission kill)?

 

An ARH gives you the freedom to turn around and extend, but for example, what would happen if an R-27ET-equipped adversary managed to dodge your missiles and start chasing you. Plus, an R-27ER can actually hit head on if used properly.

 

Bottom line is that being sneaky is not the only and certainly not the best way to go vs an Eagle. The Su-27 is an air-superiority fighter and you should fly it accordingly. You've got options at your disposal in a SARH vs ARH encounter, and it depends a lot on the mission objective, environment and of course, pilot proficiency and experience.

[deckard]

Thank you guys for all responses. You bring a lot to the table. To "extent", what does it mean? Please pardon my ignorance.

 

Can someone please write a hypothetical scenario of using R27ER correctly?

For example, SU27 and F15C flying at 7000 meters over flat terrain (water). There is no place to hide, like the mountains. I am in a SU27. What I will try to do is to fire the first missile at the max range. I will bank right 55 degrees and descend to 4000 meters. After 15 seconds, I will fire another 27ER (at 35KM) or so, bank left (55 degrees) and climb to 5000 meters. At 25KM range I will shoot another 27ER and now bank right (55 degrees) and go into a steep descent to 1000 meters, and start a steep ascend vertically. During all this time I will have all my afterburners on and dropping flares and chaff (countermeasure dispense button - press it once).

 

By doing all this and variations , I mostly get myself killed. If I am lucky, I take F15C down with me, but most of the time , I die.

 

What I tried to do is to take MIG29S and try to even the game, but I find that R77 missiles are quite bad. In a MIG29S, I approach the target head on (same altitude, same scenario), and fire 1 R77 at 25KM and a second one at less than 20KM, then I turn around, hit the afterburners and try to go up and down and pray while I am doing all this :)

 

I am certain that my tactics are wrong. Can someone please write the correct scenarios for that particular scenario?

[AussieGhost789]

Remember, IRST and R-27ET's are your friend. Staying undetected is the biggest advantage you can have. An opponent that is unaware of your presence has no hope of defeating you.

[FLANKERATOR]

Thank you guys for all responses. You bring a lot to the table. To "extent", what does it mean? Please pardon my ignorance.

 

Can someone please write a hypothetical scenario of using R27ER correctly?

For example, SU27 and F15C flying at 7000 meters over flat terrain (water). There is no place to hide, like the mountains. I am in a SU27. What I will try to do is to fire the first missile at the max range. I will bank right 55 degrees and descend to 4000 meters. After 15 seconds, I will fire another 27ER (at 35KM) or so, bank left (55 degrees) and climb to 5000 meters. At 25KM range I will shoot another 27ER and now bank right (55 degrees) and go into a steep descent to 1000 meters, and start a steep ascend vertically. During all this time I will have all my afterburners on and dropping flares and chaff (countermeasure dispense button - press it once).

 

By doing all this and variations , I mostly get myself killed. If I am lucky, I take F15C down with me, but most of the time , I die.

 

What I tried to do is to take MIG29S and try to even the game, but I find that R77 missiles are quite bad. In a MIG29S, I approach the target head on (same altitude, same scenario), and fire 1 R77 at 25KM and a second one at less than 20KM, then I turn around, hit the afterburners and try to go up and down and pray while I am doing all this :)

 

I am certain that my tactics are wrong. Can someone please write the correct scenarios for that particular scenario?

 

'Extend' means increasing the distance between you and your opponent by heading the opposite way.

 

Regarding your question, you'd want to see BVR combat as being very dynamic so you can't go through a checklist simply because your next move depends on what your opponent is doing.

 

In your scenario (27vs15/1on1/flat), the F-15 will usually try to take advantage of having ARH missiles, so you'll have to wisely choose when to temporize and when to press on. Typically, you'd want to identify the weakest salvo before committing yourself, the goal being to take his six when he tries to extend away. Ideally, you'd want to deal with not more than 1 missile before pressing on, so identifying the right moment for this requires experience and tactical awareness. We're talking HvH here not AI, as the latter will always press on (scripted/easier to defeat).

 

Beware though, an F-15 will not always extend away because it got Active missiles. So be prepared because he can do the same to you (close in when your backing away). A lot of experience and tactical feel on top of perfectly mastering your aircraft technically and kinetically.

 

Also, Tacview is worth a thousand words when it comes to learning from your tactical mistakes or seeking advice here. I hope this helps.

[HiJack]

Also, Tacview is worth a thousand words when it comes to learning from your tactical mistakes or seeking advice here. I hope this helps.

Make that more than a million :thumbup:

[Ironhand]

...

 

For example, SU27 and F15C flying at 7000 meters over flat terrain (water). There is no place to hide, like the mountains. I am in a SU27. What I will try to do is to fire the first missile at the max range. I will bank right 55 degrees and descend to 4000 meters. After 15 seconds, I will fire another 27ER (at 35KM) or so, bank left (55 degrees) and climb to 5000 meters. At 25KM range I will shoot another 27ER and now bank right (55 degrees) and go into a steep descent to 1000 meters, and start a steep ascend vertically. During all this time I will have all my afterburners on and dropping flares and chaff (countermeasure dispense button - press it once).

 

By doing all this and variations , I mostly get myself killed. If I am lucky, I take F15C down with me, but most of the time , I die...

Deck, it sounds like you're flying all over the sky with no real plan or understanding of the dynamics of what's going on. How are you against the AI? I ask because the ME is a good way to set up a controlled environment to experiment in and learn how the missiles you are using and that are used against you behave. And, also, what's your understanding of the RMax, Rtr, & Rmin tick marks on the HUD when you have the target locked?

 

Rich

[Grigs]

Ironhand is too humble to propose to you to visit his website. Click the picture on his signature. On that website, you will find a couple of videos to download. They might have been made with old versions of the game (Falming Cliffs 1), but the principles remain the same. Especially give a look to the tutorial where he makes us of the clock in the cockpit of the Su27.

 

There have been numerous threads on DCS forum relating to tactics and missile defeating.

 

In the scenario you have set, I do not see anything else but evading your opponents missiles in order to get (really) close (as it was suggested already). Knowing how effective those are and how many he can carry, you chances of success are fundamentaly low.

 

As Flankerator and HiJack, I recommend Tacview. That software is a jewel. Try to find videos on youtube and such which are making use of Tacview.

 

Good luck mate