Lock Maverick onto laser designations

[Wrench]

I'm new to the forums, this is my first post.

I've used it as a resource for about 2 years now, and finally registered today.

That being said, I've searched extensively over the months for an answer to this question. There's like 30,000 posts here so I may have missed it, so if this has been discussed I'm sorry to waste you time.

 

What I'd like to know is if you can use the TGP to lase a target, either with visible for AGM-65H/K, or the IRP for D/G.

 

For example, say I'm trying to pu a MAV though a window, or a random spot on the ground, somewhere the MAV can't get a lock. Or maybe even if the MAV has a "special moment" and refuses to lock somewhere it should.

 

Is it possible to Lase the target with the TGP and have to MAV seeker lock on to the LASER? I know I can slave the MAV to the SPI generated by the TGP, but again, let's assume the MAV won't lock on this particular target.

 

I'm pretty sure this is fairly SOP in real aircraft.

 

This is the process I have tried so far:

 

Find target in TGP

Point lock target (with LASER for precision)

Set SPI to TGP

Switch to IR

LATCH IR on target

MAV as SOI

Slave MAV to SPI (from tgp)

[MAV is now locked to the exact spot the IR is directed.]

TMS up short to attempt lock

TMS up short to attempt lock

TMS up short to attempt lock

TMS up short to attempt lock

TMS up short to attempt lock

Give up and drop JDAM

 

Am I missing something, is this feature not modeled in DCS, or is this not really a thing that can happen in real life?

 

Thanks for all you help over the years, and in the future. (and here too? ;) )

 

Message to mods: If this is in the wrong place, or has been discussed before, I am sorry to re-post.

[JayPee]

Both the EO and IR sensors of the AGM-65 cannot 'see' the laser spot. What you are looking for is the laser guided AGM-65E/E2/L which are designed to home in on the laser spot. The Mav E is present in DCS yet not selectable for player controlled A/C. Back in 1.2.4 or so a small mod made the laser guided Mav available for the A-10C with all functionality included but then ED decided to screw us over and block that.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-65_Maverick#Variants

Don't take details on the Wiki for granted but you can still use it for the overview of variants.

Edited February 4, 2015 by JayPee

[panzerd18]

And why would they block something like this?

[Wrench]

Thanks! Quick reply, respect.:thumbup:

Can the '65D's and G's do that in real life, or am I just flat out wrong?

[JayPee]

And why would they block something like this?

Word around the campfire was that their agreement with the military and/or defence industry did not include modeling of the laser guided Mavericks. When a few community members suddenly 'unlocked' the Mav E via a small mod DCS World was not the product anymore that was agreed upon.

 

I once took a small look into what ED has removed to make the Mav E suddenly unavaible but didn't spend much time on it. I might pick that up again to see if I can re-implement the missing entries from an older installation source.

[JayPee]

Thanks! Quick reply, respect.:thumbup:

Can the '65D's and G's do that in real life, or am I just flat out wrong?

As far as I know non-laser guided, or optically guided missiles, cannot lock on to laser spots.

 

I think you are mixing up the idea of using the laser to generate an accurate Mark Point and then slave the EO/IR Maverick to the Mark Point. But then the missile itself still has to be able to generate a lock, it cannot simply copy the coordinates of the Mark Point and reference these without a visual lock.

 

I'm sure I'm not using the proper terminology but I'm confident you get my point. This topic has a fair chance to suddenly vanish into the world of deleted topics anyway since that happened to other Mav E topics as far as I recall so no point in writing pages of theory on the Maverick here.

Edited February 4, 2015 by JayPee

[Wrench]

I think you are mixing up the idea of using the laser to generate an accurate Mark Point and then slave the EO/IR Maverick to the Mark Point. But then the missile itself still has to be able to generate a lock, it cannot simply copy the coordinates of the Mark Point and reference these without a visual lock.

 

I see what you mean, But I would think that an IR seeker that can distinguish the difference between a vehicle and provide a lock the ground could lock on to a giant glowing spot from a powerful IR LASER.

[escaner]

Every guided weapon has a sensor, you cannot guide them arbitrarily with a laser. AGM-65D/G look for IR signatures, while H/K variants look for shapes in visual spectrum. They are not designed to look for tiny laser reflections like the AGM-65E, which as already said cannot be used in the game.

 

OTOH, what you are looking for is the Force Correlate mode. This mode allows the Maverick to lock onto arbitrary shapes. It cannot be used with D variant, but in the G/H/K, when you select the Mav and slave it to your target (SPI), use Boat switch Center (if already in center, move Fwd or Aft and back to center), and then TMS Fwd short to lock (or the slew method if you prefer). The targeting cross will fully collapse instead of leaving an opening at the center, and the seeker position will blink as usual when the lock is achieved.

 

This mode will lock very far away, so be sure to be within range before firing. Also, if shooting vehicles, think that it may lock on the background instead of the vehicle itself and it won't track them if they move, so the miss ratio is higher.

 

There are lots of tutorials about Force Correlate on Youtube with different methods to use it, I recommend to watch a few of them to get the hang of it.

[effte]

Having an IR mav lock on to the IR spot would be the same thing as the optical seeker locking on to any bright light source on the ground. Just that it is bright doesn't mean it is the thing to guide to.

[Flagrum]

Word around the campfire was that their agreement with the military and/or defence industry did not include modeling of the laser guided Mavericks. When a few community members suddenly 'unlocked' the Mav E via a small mod DCS World was not the product anymore that was agreed upon.

... and besides that, the 65E was never used on the A-10C. Afaik only the Navy uses it (soooo ... maybe when we get the F/A-18!? Hrmmm!).

 

I once took a small look into what ED has removed to make the Mav E suddenly unavaible but didn't spend much time on it. I might pick that up again to see if I can re-implement the missing entries from an older installation source.

Don't bother - it is disabled in the binary code (EXE/DLL) of DCS now. There is no way anymore to re-enable it by some LUA tweaking.

[Einherjer]

Lock Maverick onto laser designations

 

Having an IR mav lock on to the IR spot would be the same thing as the optical seeker locking on to any bright light source on the ground. Just that it is bright doesn't mean it is the thing to guide to.

 

 

 

 

Aren't they different wave length between the "thermal" ir vision and the "visual" ir pointer.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Einherjer

[panzerd18]

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/raytheon-restarts-production-of-laser-maverick-missiles-05397/

[JayPee]

Flag, I've read that as well,

 

However, I recall reading Raytheon started production of the E2/L halfway 2014. So far I have no other conclusions that the operational laser MAVs used in Afghanistan in the recent years (you can Google images of 10C's with laser MAVs in 'Stan) must have been E models.

 

EDIT: Headshotted by Panzerd81

[Flagrum]

Aren't they different wave length between the "thermal" ir vision and the "visual" ir pointer.

Yes, but that is a counter argument for that idea.

 

In fact, laser designators do use a different wavelength for their laser than what ususally is used by IR optics (sensors, NVG). The reason, as far as my understanding goes, is that optics are used to detect heat signatures (hot engines of vehicles, humans, etc.). If now a laser designator would use the same frequency, it would just heat up the target - and that would again lead to the problem already described.

 

Laser designators work with pulsating lasers, roughly comparable to morse code. And that is, what sensors (or their electronics) pick up. So theoretically a laser spot and just a hot engine could be distingushed by that method, but would still leave the problem of lasing an already hot surface.

 

edit:

Hrm. Now I am unsure if my answer is really relating to what you said. You spoke about "thermal IR" and "visual pointer IR".

"Themral IR" is what sensors use (heat).

"visual pointer IR" does not exist, afaik. IR is not visible for the human eye. Only when supported by an appropriate sensor like NVGs you can see an IR pointer.

A Laser designator is something different - as explained above, using a different frequency which is neither visible for the naked eye nor with NVGs. I am not even sure if the frequency of these is actually still called "IR".

I think, you meant a laser designator when you said "visual IR pointer"?

Edited February 4, 2015 by Flagrum

[Snoopy]

... and besides that, the 65E was never used on the A-10C. Afaik only the Navy uses it (soooo ... maybe when we get the F/A-18!? Hrmmm!).

 

We fly with training laser Mavs all the time which = yes we use it in combat.

[NineLine]

We fly with training laser Mavs all the time which = yes we use it in combat.

 

Is it a limitation of the software suite modelled in DCS, or not related?

[Snoopy]

Is it a limitation of the software suite modelled in DCS, or not related?

 

 

Honestly not sure, I don't have any suite 3 Tech Orders to reference.

 

And just to be clear I wasn't saying ED should or shouldn't include but to clarify that we can and do presently (suite 7) carry laser Mavs.

[NineLine]

Honestly not sure, I don't have any suite 3 Tech Orders to reference.

 

And just to be clear I wasn't saying ED should or shouldn't include but to clarify that we can and do presently (suite 7) carry laser Mavs.

 

That was the only reason I was asking because I knew you said that the suite version in DCS is quite far behind, so wondered if that had an effect, thanks for the response!

[Snoopy]

I know we carried with suite 6, but anything sooner I can't say for sure because that was before I started working A-10s again.

[bolek]

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/raytheon-restarts-production-of-laser-maverick-missiles-05397/

 

What do the mean by:

 

TV guidance could be precise enough to hit a specific part of the building, but its precision level is inferior to laser guidance, and it also lacks the easy adaptability and fire-and-forget qualities of a laser-guided missile.

I thought this was the other way around: TV/IR guided missiles are fire-and-forget but laser guided missiles are not?!

[rcjonessnp175]

Theirs nothing better as a ground guy lazing in munitions from the birds above. Mavericks never done a maverick. Would be cool if the A10c module got a suite upgrade in game to something more modern and available to the devs.

[cichlidfan]

Theirs nothing better as a ground guy lazing in munitions from the birds above. Mavericks never done a maverick. Would be cool if the A10c module got a suite upgrade in game to something more modern and available to the devs.

 

Too much work for too little potential return. Though I would love to see it as well, I just don't see it happening even if ED had permission.

Edited February 4, 2015 by cichlidfan

[escaner]

I thought this was the other way around: TV/IR guided missiles are fire-and-forget but laser guided missiles are not?!

 

You are right

[SkateZilla]

I was under the impression Laser MAVs were disabled by request in the creation of the entertainment version.

 

At one point (DCSW 1.2.3), some one had modded it into the loadouts, then it was disabled further.

 

Cant find any official mention of it on the earlier Suite 3 Hogs, will have to dig deeper for that info,

 

But it was interesting that the entire system was modeled if the -Es were loaded.

[Snoopy]

Reading through some documents and any reference to the AGM-65E/L wasn't added until Suite 7A.

 

That doesn't mean the A-10 couldn't carry it though. Could simply be the training docs didn't get updated earlier.

 

And just for reference:

Suite 5 upgrades started in 2009

Suite 6 upgrades started in 2010

Suite 7 upgrades started in 2011

Edited February 4, 2015 by Snoopy