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is their sposed to be a lanch warning when someone shoots at you in flood mode?


kainhall
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long story short.... a dude said it was a bug that the aim 7 doenst give a lanch warning when shot in flood mode.

 

my counter to that argument is.... their no active lock, no active seeker, and no change of radar states on launch.....

 

as far as i know.... the aim 7 is looking for reflected energy as soon as you switch to flood. otherwise, why would the launch lights light up? the aim 7 has to communicate with thows lights......

 

you fire the missile and its still looking for the reflected energy.... the radar hasnt changed from track to launch frequencies like a SST launch would do.

 

the missle doenst have radar.....

 

so, what would give the launch warning?

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Here's my 2 cents. But, then again, I have no definitive knowledge. The missile seeker is going to need a specific type and frequency of reflected signal to follow. It's the same regardless of whether the computer has locked the outgoing radar signal onto a specific target or you are responsible for tracking the target visually. The target aircraft's RWR is responding to a radar type and frequency when it issues a launch warning. So it seems that there should be a warning. However, it might be that the RWR would start screaming when the system's receptors are bathed with Flood mode energy rather than when the missile actually leaves the rail.

 

Of course, I could be completely off base on all counts.

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The APG-63 will attempt a transfer to HPRF if not in HPRF already when launching the Sparrow.

 

If it is not possible to enter HPRF, it may automatically go to FLOOD mode.

 

As for what the RWR reacts to to give a warning? Don't conflate reality with a game - not only do we not know the classified details, but warnings may or may not be issued based on air force philosophy - ie. the RWR is programmed to give you warnings in a way you want them.

 

RWRs in this game are both far better and far worse than their RL counter-parts, as are other systems.

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The APG-63 will attempt a transfer to HPRF if not in HPRF already when launching the Sparrow.

 

If it is not possible to enter HPRF, it may automatically go to FLOOD mode.

 

As for what the RWR reacts to to give a warning? Don't conflate reality with a game - not only do we not know the classified details, but warnings may or may not be issued based on air force philosophy - ie. the RWR is programmed to give you warnings in a way you want them.

 

RWRs in this game are both far better and far worse than their RL counter-parts, as are other systems.

:) So the answer is: "Perhaps"?

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Unless you give solid legel documentation...

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Doesn't even matter. Like I said, the warning is software configurable.

 

@Ironhand: Yep :) You could even trigger on HPRF + signal strength.

 

Unless you give solid legel documentation...

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...

 

@Ironhand: Yep :) You could even trigger on HPRF + signal strength.

That would be very handy when fighting against those wily, nasty Eagle drivers. :)

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That would be very handy when fighting against those wily, nasty Eagle drivers. :)

Probably not, the range cue would be for a high altitude launch so every radar within that range would ping your Beroyza with false launch warnings regardless of altitude or aircraft type, i'm sure that would make SA with the limited Beroyza troublesome and give a nasty headache. :D

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Probably not, the range cue would be for a high altitude launch so every radar within that range would ping your Beroyza with false launch warnings regardless of altitude or aircraft type, i'm sure that would make SA with the limited Beroyza troublesome and give a nasty headache. :D

But that would be my excuse to turn around, go home, and have a beer. :)

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alright... thanks guys. even if we cant get a 100% answer, i like learning about this shit anyway.... so its all cool to me.

so.... bug, or no bug? i basically gotta prove someone wrong or right! lol are we both right and wrong?

 

it would make sence that every radar in the "circle" would get a lock/lanuch tone.... but i dont think one would be able to tell WHEN or WHERE the missile launched/is.

 

however, id bet that most people would turn that off... even if no missle is in the air, your getting distracted.... BEEP BEPP BEEP BEEP

 

or possibly edit that classified software so it makes a tone once thats slighlty different from the normal "im locked and a missle is in the air" noises........it would just let you know that someone is in flood, and to visually LOOK for a missile.

 

would be cool to model the software side of the RWR if, and when we get a fully clickable f-15! im a computer science major.... software is code, and code is life!

the more things you can change to your liking (like the HUD in the a-10) the better the game is!

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So before it would provide a lock tone but no launch warning if I understood correctly. Now no lock tone and no launch warning?

 

But it never gave a lock tone before. I don't understand it. It used to give search radar signal in FLOOD, but no lock. Looking at the other items of the changelog it might be something with the translation.

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It's a typo: This is the description of the bug.

 

So before it would provide a lock tone but no launch warning if I understood correctly. Now no lock tone and no launch warning?

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Not very up on the mechanics of how this works but shouldn't you get a launch warning for ANY launch regardless of whether or not it is aimed at you?

 

EG: Friendly TOW missile being fired at an enemy tank on the ground. It detects the launch....or is it only the A10 system that gives that type of launch warning and the fighters have lock warning launches?

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Why would you detect a missile launch on your RWR when you're not even inside the designating radar beam?

 

There are different types of sensors and they do all kinds of different things. What an aircraft is actually equipped with depends on the needs, funding, and philosophy of a given air force.

 

Not very up on the mechanics of how this works but shouldn't you get a launch warning for ANY launch regardless of whether or not it is aimed at you?

 

EG: Friendly TOW missile being fired at an enemy tank on the ground. It detects the launch....or is it only the A10 system that gives that type of launch warning and the fighters have lock warning launches?

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in HARM language you mean its a 'slapshot'?

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You would of thought the RWR would give a lock warning when your being painted in flood mode even without launch, can't be much difference to a SARH launch?. Ironhand I see you still running flankertraining, your LOMAC Eagle tutorials were excellent.


Edited by Threads77
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and then you change the FLOOD mode in the most recent patch..... nice.

i feel this makes the SU 27s, who can fire their EOS ERs with out giving a launch warning...a little over powered in servers like the 104th.

 

by the same logic, i should get a warning for an ER shot now.....


Edited by kainhall
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and then you change the FLOOD mode in the most recent patch..... nice.

i feel this makes the SU 27s, who can fire their EOS ERs with out giving a launch warning.

 

by the same logic, i should get a warning for an ER shot now.....

 

ETs you mean? You have AIM-9s that you can fire without generating a (radar) launch warning. 'Course, without the EOS, it's not quite the same :-P

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From the F-15C Manual:

 

Flood, [6] key, mode is used in the close-range combat with the AIM-7M. The antenna is limited to a 12 degrees cone that is flooded with continuous wave (CW) energy. In Flood mode, the radar never actually locks onto the target; rather, the seeker in the missiles homes in on the target within the Flood reticule with the largest radar cross section (RCS). Flood engagement range is limited to 10 nautical miles. "FLOOD" is displayed on the VSD and HUD.

 

From what it says in the manual it sounds like although the target isn't locked it is flooding the sky with continuous wave energy, according to wikipedia (Great source, I know) that is the same energy used to guide SARH missiles such as the AIM-7.

 

So on one hand the target isn't being locked actively by the radar so the enemies RWR should only see it in search mode.

 

On the other hand the target is being illuminated by the same radar waves used for missile guidance, so the enemy RWR might be able to know it's being launched on.

 

With how classified RWR tech is I really don't think we can find out how it works with 100% certainty and there are arguments for either system.

 

For gameplay purposes I would prefer launches of AIM-7's with flood mode to only show in search mode with no launch or lock tones. It makes the gameplay more interesting as it provides a risky opportunity for a F-15 to make a (relatively) stealthy kill, especially if the enemy isn't paying attention. If flood mode did provide launch and lock notifications it would make the mode largely useless compared to Bore and Vertical scan modes as in flood mode you get no target information such as a tracking box, speed or heading or even IFF.

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-active_radar_homing#Continuous-wave_radar

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model it according to how it *is*

 

don't worry about "gameplay"

 

what is good or bad for "gameplay" can always be argued -- reality cannot

 

do the research, come up with an answer.. model it

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From what it says in the manual it sounds like although the target isn't locked it is flooding the sky with continuous wave energy, according to wikipedia (Great source, I know) that is the same energy used to guide SARH missiles such as the AIM-7.

 

So on one hand the target isn't being locked actively by the radar so the enemies RWR should only see it in search mode.

 

There's nothing even resembling 'search mode' happening here, your RWR isn't in danger of ever reporting it as a radar in search mode.

It's also not CW, it's HRPF PD for the affected version of the radar (CW was completely deleted IIRC).

 

With how classified RWR tech is I really don't think we can find out how it works with 100% certainty and there are arguments for either system.

 

Pretty much 100% certainty you will at least get lock warning.

 

For gameplay purposes I would prefer launches of AIM-7's with flood mode to only show in search mode with no launch or lock tones.

 

Unrealistic alterations for 'gameplay' purposes will be avoided for the vast, vast majority of things. To put another way, the behavior you desire was incorrect and was fixed. Period, end of story.

 

It makes the gameplay more interesting as it provides a risky opportunity for a F-15 to make a (relatively) stealthy kill, especially if the enemy isn't paying attention. If flood mode did provide launch and lock notifications it would make the mode largely useless compared to Bore and Vertical scan modes as in flood mode you get no target information such as a tracking box, speed or heading or even IFF.

 

That is correct. FLOOD is pretty much useless under normal circumstances, and the circumstances that do make it useful are not modeled in game - they are as follows:

 

1. If the antenna fails, you might still be able to use the FLOOD horn (but really, you're not likely to do this in a real fight. In the real world.)

2. If a sparrow is launched without a lock, the FLOOD mode will be activated automatically.

3. If a sparrow is launching or in flight and the radar fails to transfer the track to HRPF waveform (due to target aspect, clutter, ECM, whatever else), FLOOD will be activated automatically.

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