Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[S3NTRY11]

I feel like a broken record saying, but eye-tracking and foveated rendering is a MUST for VR to continue to grow.

It helps with so many things especially reducing the workload for the CPU/GPU by rendering only what is necessary and in doing so would allow for larger resolution screens and less SDE.

 

Damn shame no-one could integrate eye tracking before the release of a commercial version, because you're spot-on!

 

That video looks like Vive will have solved the cockpit problem. Awesome!!!!

I really would not get your hopes up. How would that work? Switch-out to chaperone? Integration with a an overlay that obscures the virtual pit? Neither are great options.

I hate to say it, but I'd imagine the best option will still be interacting with the virtual pit with haptics-capable tracked-gloves, or similar.

[OldE24]

it Looks like the DELAY was mainly the adding of a front facing camera. which is intresting as they climed it to be a huge step. it will be kool but the FPV drone guys have had the cameras on there headsets for a while.

[hansangb]

The problem with the front facing camera is that the button is on the controller. I was hoping they would have it on the side of the HMD. When flying, you're still going to have to reach for the controller to turn it on. having a button on either side of the HMD would make it easier for simmers who don't care for the controller.

[Chivas]

I have 160+ switches plus gauges. Not good for that. Muscle memory for that is ridiculous and an immersion killer. That is why the USAF will not use VR for their sims.

 

I will use VR for HOTAS only flying and controller games.

 

Gauges are irrelevant, you will be able to see the actual cockpit gauges for that particular aircraft in the VR cockpit.

 

Most people would be able to use muscle memory to find their switches, in about the time it might take you to reached up to double tap and engage the see thru camera.

 

I understand your problem, but I don't believe the see through camera is as big a deal as you'd like to suggest for most people with complex cockpits.

[hansangb]

I would actually prefer preaking out the bottom of my goggles. Like I do with DK2. I don't need 100% blacked out immersion. Even activating a camera from the controller would be annoying to me. So when I get the CV1, I'll have to cut out the bridge of the nose part since the gap is no longer there, I'm told.

Edited January 6, 2016 by hansangb

[Frusheen]

Of course you don't see the problem. You have no switches. Vive is now looking much better for pits.

 

It looks like Vive has passed Oculus.

 

I got to try HTC's latest virtual-reality prototype, and it has a big leg up on Facebook's Oculus Rift

 

 

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/htc-v...-photos-2016-1

 

My god Icarus you are all over the place. Yesterday you weren't buying a Vive or Rift because of screen door. Today you want the Vive because you'll be able to see your switches. Surely you realize what you want is AR and not VR at all. Yet you post everything and anything VR related that you find on the Internet in the Vive and rift threads. Maybe you don't know what you want :music_whistling:

[hansangb]

Icarus, did you say you had the DK2? I'm actually in the process of adding 40 or 50 switches. Peaking out of DK2 and using my MFDs work like a charm. The camera on the vive would be a distraction for me. I just peak out of the bottom, push the MFD and fire away.

[Chivas]

Of course you don't see the problem. You have no switches. Vive is now looking much better for pits. Go to pitbuilders forums, they all complain about the problem. The customer base for Oculus is shrinking.

 

Now Oculus has unveiled its extremely high price they dropped on everyone after saying it would be cheap, it looks like Vive has passed Oculus.

 

I got to try HTC's latest virtual-reality prototype, and it has a big leg up on Facebook's Oculus Rift

 

 

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/htc-v...-photos-2016-1

 

I have over fifty switches/levers/dials in my Hotas system, with mode switches that could triple those functions. All are quite easy to use without ever having to take my eyes off the target. Real pilots were also easily trained to find all the switches etc without having to look for them.

 

I understand your angst, but with a little effort, people shouldn't need to use the camera in flight sims. If you prefer to use the camera that's OK too, but you might want to learn to find your switches, without looking during a dogfight.

 

The see thru camera is good option for many functions, but its also an immersion killer in VR.

[hansangb]

I still think HoloLens may be the best option for full pit builders. *IF* it can deliver half the things shown in the demos at resolution with proper FPS. Not like I'm asking much, am I?

[spacenavy90]

http://oculusrift-blog.com/allthingsd-speaks-palmer-nate-d11/1616/

 

" If something’s even $600, it doesn’t matter how good it is, how great of an experience it is — if they just can’t afford it, then it really might as well not exist. We’re going for the mainstream, but time will tell what the market is. "

 

-Palmer Luckey June 2013

[Chivas]

HTC Vive review (hands-on): HTC’s headset is still the king of virtual reality

 

http://www.alphr.com/htc/1001486/htc-vive-review-hands-on-htc-s-headset-is-still-the-king-of-virtual-reality

 

 

Just another review comparing the latest Vive HMD prototype to an old DK2 Oculus prototypes.

 

I suggest you wait for reviews comparing the CV1, and HTC PRE, even that wouldn't be relevant review, as the HTC PRE is still a prototype without audio, and the CV1 without Touch.

 

[Chivas]

HOTAS is totally different, you have no switches off the HOTAS. I understand now why you don't get it. And no modern fighter pilots are not "easily" trained to find all the switches without seeing them. There are hundreds. That is why they have flashlights. IMO Vive is a better option for pits. Too bad Oculus didn't think of it. Those who have tried the new Vive say it is brilliant and no immersion killer.

 

There are switches and rotaries on my Stick, Throttle, and another Triple throttle setup with switches. My right hand usually stays on the stick, and move my left hand to the three different switch banks on the three inputs. In a cockpit you just have more banks of inputs, each could easily have a landmark lever/rotary, to make the switch you want easier to find.

 

In your case you would probably move your left hand to all switches and lever/rotary banks on the front/left of the cockpit, and your right hand to all the switch, levers on the front/right of the cockpit.

 

If your cockpit is built correctly, I doubt very much that all your switches are located in one spot, where it might be difficult to differentiate one from the other. The switches are usually dispersed in the levers, and dials, where you know the switch you want is two over from that particular dial, lever. It would be relatively easy to learn to move your hand to a landmark in each bank of switches/levers/rotaries and find the correct one, quicker than

moving your hand up to your HMD to engage the see through camera.

 

There are still questions on the quality of the see thru camera. So far its been suggested that people and chairs are just shadowy images, and you can read your watch if you bring it up close to your face. So that would suggest you'd have to aggressively lean into the cockpit to actually see the switch, and read the gauge. Also how accurate is the relationship between where you see the switch in the camera and to where it actually is. You'd still probably have to use some muscle memory, and feel. Still a lot of unanswered questions. Hopefully the camera will be clearer for you, than what it appears to be in initial reports.

[Chivas]

"We want to stay in that $200-$400 price range," -Palmer Luckey

 

Luckey says a lot of things. Some not true.

 

As the Rift development progressed Luckey later said the Rift would be more than 399, which is true. Certainly not as much as I thought, but still true. But we can also count on you to quote old news if it suits your agenda.

[spacenavy90]

As the Rift development progressed Luckey later said the Rift would be more than 399, which is true.

 

That certainly IS true.

 

Thus why no one in their right mind will be buying one. :thumbup:

[hansangb]

Good lord, are we starting this up *again*?

 

And how can a product that doesn't even exist overtake a product that hasn't shipped yet? Let's just say that both have a market, happy for the competition and leave it at that. Why do people get so religious about a piece of gaming gear??

[Oesau]

As a complete newcomer to this thread but have long had a interest in the VR application to flight sims I have to say I was encouraged by the news of the front facing camera.

 

From my perspective I've struggled with the thought of using a VR and my HOTAS, series of switches and keyboard. Yes, HOTAS isn't a issue as it's a memory thing, but the keyboard and switches are a different story. I don't want or intend to have a home cockpit so having the option to see my other input controls is good news.

 

Now without actually seeing how it works (or the options around it operation) it's difficult to know how it will work IRL. However, what I'm hoping for is: a button to switch this on or off as well as variable opacity control so that control it to the level I personally need.

[Johnny Dioxin]

Laughed my cotton socks off just now, when I visited the BBC 'Tech' news section.

 

Not a single word on the Rift - instead, their main story is a load of hype about the Playstation VR and how it has attracted the big publishing names and will have over 100 VR games on release!

 

Just about sums them up. Tomorrow they will probably announce the release of the Steam Controller... :doh:

[_Acoustic_]

Both products will offer great things, so far they seem pretty similar with everything I can find about them but time will tell. I bought on the pre-order of the OR, shipping in March. I'll do an honest review of it.

 

We are all pioneers in this and things will start happening fast. Technology has always been on an exponential growth curve and hate to say it because I love mine and spend a good chunk of money in it, but sim pits will be a moot point in 5 years. Developers and consumers will not stop at VR goggles and great immersion. The next thing is already in the books with the touch. That will translate into hand tracking in game where you move your real hand which moves your in game hand to whatever button or switch you need and allows you to press, push, whatever. After that they will implement feedback sensors and then you will actually feel the button, switch, whatever.

 

Who knows how far VR will be in 2020 and 2025, we went from Nokia cell phones playing snake in 2003 to smartphones billions of times more powerful than the Apollo command modules in 10 years.

 

Early tech is always $$ and will eventually trickle down, just look at the prices of 4k TVs when they first came out to now.

[Frusheen]

 

Great video on Vive pre from Tested.

[Frusheen]

Doesn't look like the huge breakthrough is all that great. The camera gives incorrect depth cues which won't be good for augmented reality use. Perhaps the release version will improve on it.

[JaBoG32_Prinzartus]

Front-facing cam? Maybe great for DCS. So, you will be able to glance at keybards and cockpit switches. Wow, can't wait for first usability reports in regards to DCS. :punk::crash:

[Brisse]

Front-facing cam? Maybe great for DCS. So, you will be able to glance at keybards and cockpit switches. Wow, can't wait for first usability reports in regards to DCS. :punk::crash:

 

I doubt it will work well for that. The camera is unable to give you any depth perception, so even if you see your keyboard, you will have trouble hitting the intended keys.

[hansangb]

I doubt it will work well for that. The camera is unable to give you any depth perception, so even if you see your keyboard, you will have trouble hitting the intended keys.

 

People will get used to it. It's not like you're trying to hit a 100MPH fast ball with the camera. When we wore NVGs in the Army, it lacked depth perception as well. So people could easily mistake a 1M drop with a 10CM drop. But you get used to it and your brain will know what to do.

 

I myself like peaking out of the bottom of my goggles. But who knows, maybe I'll prefer the small screen/camera. I'll keep an open mind.

[S3NTRY11]

Great post on Lighthouse tech for those unfamiliar :

[SimFreak]

Great post on Lighthouse tech for those unfamiliar :

 

1 lighthouse stations are passive

2 The lighthouse boxes send out (for humans invisible infrared) light signals which then the vive's IR-diodes can see.

 

 

Is my understanding of passive.......wrong?