Beating the refueling horse to its death

[SharpeXB]

What's seems true about this task is just as in the bicycle riding analogy, once you get it, it's not unlearned. This discussion made me want to have a go at it again. I haven't flown the Hog in months (withdrawal symptoms are setting in... Oh where is Nevada?) yet I was able to pick it right up again and do a complete AAR

I spent weeks of practice with my muscles all sore from grabbing my stick in a death grip and my shirt soaked in sweat swearing that if only the stupid tanker would just sit still and stop bouncing all over the sky! Then "got it". The learning curve is a funny thing.

[PFunk1606688187]

Baseball wisdom is universal.

 

[StrongHarm]

And there ya have it folks.. the precision flying secret sauce straight from a USAF Aviator. I can attest to the method. After I started using it my AARs became routine. Thanks again Tuk!

 

(also.. see Tuk shoot like a mad man)

 

Washing the box is basically what harm said already. There's a dead space around the central position of the stick. Moving the stick in a circular motion within this area helps some people because you get a sense of where the boundaries are on the dead zone and more importantly it helps keep the brain from fixating. Just be careful to not overdo it. Anyone observing from the outside shouldn't be able to see the jet doing anything...it should look like you're smooth as butter.

[johnv2pt0]

And there ya have it folks.. the precision flying secret sauce straight from a USAF Aviator. I can attest to the method. After I started using it my AARs became routine. Thanks again Tuk!

 

(also.. see Tuk shoot like a mad man)

 

Lol, did I hire a publicist without knowing it?

[StrongHarm]

You didn't think you'd give me advice to make my AARs so easy and not gain a fan didja? Plus.. I just dig those shooting vids.

[Yurgon]

It seems there must have been some kind of misunderstanding here. I'd been waiting to see if it resolves on its own, but since it didn't, let's see if we can resolve the issue now.

 

I'll ask the real A-10 pilots in my reserve unit what they have their curves set to.:music_whistling:

 

:joystick:

 

:pilotfly:

 

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=55

 

I take it you were trying to say that there is no such thing as a joystick curve on the real jet, correct?

 

I didn't think there was, but I wouldn't be too surprised if pilots were actually able to ask their crew to stiffen or loosen the stick within certain parameters according to their taste. If I read your post correctly, that is however not the case - or is it?

 

The A-10C AIR-TO-AIR REFUELING GUIDE doesn't mention curves at all. But it's a great document, thanks for sharing! :thumbup:

 

You enjoy that, I'll continue to enjoy taking to real A-10 pilots.

 

Well, my point was that we don't share the same hardware that real pilots use. Since you brought up the perspective of real pilots, I think it's a valid question how they would fly DCS. That post of yours was not helpful. I don't know if I previously said anything to offend you; if I did, that was not my intention, and if I did, would you point out what exactly offended you so that we can avoid such problems in future discussions?

 

They wouldn't waste their time they get to play with the real thing.

 

Okay, so first you bring up real pilots and then you say they don't matter. :huh:

 

It's not necessary, I haven't used curves for over 4 years and didn't then for very long.

 

So do I understand correctly that your point, basically, is that curves are unrealistic and people shouldn't use them?

 

Then why didn't you just say so? Would have avoided quite a bit of going back and forth. :music_whistling:

[NineLine]

So how all is this bickering helping the OP? Come on guys... share your tips, and if you dont like what works for another guy, too bad, its the way it is.

[Stewart]

If you have your stick on the floor with an extension then you do not need curves you will have full control just like a real plane. If you have a desktop stick you will need curves. Ask the real A10 pilots to fly with no extension and see what they say that 5 inch pull to the right will only be 1.5 inches on a desktop stick I like the 5 inch pull just like a floor stick. I have flown a bi-plane crop duster with my uncle and I can tell you a desktop stick is too sensitive not to have curves. I use an X55 with lightest spring and I use 30 curves and 75% on saturation Y just to make it fell almost realistic. If I had it on the floor with a full extension it would be the hardest spring and no curves at all.

If you drive a semi and have drove a conventional and a cabover you know the difference in the shifter. In a conventional the stick is coming out of the floor and is called a sloppy stick. The cabover uses the same trans and shifter but instead of having a full stick it is like a desktop and it is extremely hard to use because it comes out of the doghouse and is very close to the trans there is no extension. I bet a lot of the guys that say do not use curves has an extended stick.

[Stewart]

So how all is this bickering helping the OP? Come on guys... share your tips, and if you dont like what works for another guy, too bad, its the way it is.

 

Well Sith the control of the plane is everything in AAR if you do not have the stick setup correctly it is going to mess you up.

 

One of the biggest complaints on any sim is control settings and will be until they make a good force feedback stick that used actual real aircraft inputs in game. Since most planes now are fly by wire input capture should not be that hard.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I think people here are divided as to having:

1- curves mandatory to limit around center sensitivity.

Or

2- curves ruin tactile muscle memory buildup so they refrain from using it, but in a sense they have a nice, calibrated, possibly floor mounted, modded sticks. For OP, try the condom mod only if you are out of warranty. Check chhangar for more details.

[PFunk1606688187]

I love the people who use a voice of reason to distill the arguments into neat yet misleading generalizations.

 

My stick is a piece of crap - I think curves suck. Just one man's opinion not based on any common factor such as high quality hardware, stick extension, whatever. I perceive a measurable degradation in responsiveness that is unnecessary in my opinion because curves are not necessary, a conclusion I drew based on having a POS stick and doing more than good enough.

 

I don't give a crap if its not realistic. What is realistic? Its an arbitrary concept. You fly a real airplane? Good for you. Curve, no curve, neither case provides me with a realistic sensation. What leads to what someone perceives as either most realistic or most useful based on an arbitrary perception of realism is their perspective and therefore outside of any other person's frame of reference thus making most advice not irrefutable.

 

We also don't have stick forces, G perception, realistic FOV, and a whole pant load of other stuff. Everything is therefore a compromise. I feel curves compromise my ability to throw the airplane around, meanwhile I have no issues holding close echelon formation or staying on the boom ergo I get a more realistic experience by my arbitrary measure out of no curves because I get maximum control rate with no downsides.

 

If someone can't stay on the boom with 30 curve and maybe some saturation then its not lack of stick curve thats holding them back. One thing I do know is that when you suck you often Pogo ie. oscillate your controls back and forth and when your controls are sluggish ie. there's a curve on them then that only exacerbates the issue.

 

So whats the final tally? None, its opinion. I do know that after simming in many genres that any attempt at realism is always a compromise. Curves compromise something I think is important. No extension here - don't care if someone flew a real airplane, these aren't real airplanes and they don't have real controls. One thing you shouldn't do though is assume why someone thinks something, especially if they say different. Its a form of dismissing the merit of someone's point of view, a very common internet past time. I at least tell you its in your head, suggesting its your subconcious that's full of crap rather than the conscious part of you that can wallop on me if it so chose to.

 

So, where'd it all start? I said OP should try no curve and trim nose heavy since he's probably on a heavy curve and trimming perfectly level. When you can't make head way the only smart thing to do is either walk away for a long long time to avoid frustration and practicing bad habits or go for a radical change of approach. Your brain is great, but its sometimes weird and dumb and you can trick it into doing a better job.

Edited March 17, 2015 by P*Funk

[WildBillKelsoe]

its opinion

 

Right on the head there. Couldn't have said it better.

[StrongHarm]

I love the people who use a voice of reason to distill the arguments into neat yet misleading generalizations.

 

I think we also need to be careful about the 'relativity of truth'. Here's the solution set:

 

PROBLEM: (summary of comments) How do RL pilots perform AAR with ease while I'm working for so long to master the operation.. I'm good with all other operations in the sim, so why is this one so difficult?

 

PROBABLE ROOT CAUSES:

 

• 
  
• Misunderstanding of procedure
  
• Disparity between RL control operation and Sim control operation
  

PROBABLE SOLUTIONS:

 

• 
  
• Ensure you have procedural understanding
  
• Ensure your controls provide reasonable precision of input
  
  • 
    
  • Does RL relation provide reasonable precision of input?
    

 

The burning and still outstanding question: Is the ratio of movement of the stick compared to RL affecting my AAR success? If they can do AAR with reliability IRL, is there some disparity between my virtual stick operation and RL stick operation?

 

It's easy to say 'you can't do it because you suck'. Let's remove that from the equation. I personally have no problem with AAR because I've satisfied the input question and the procedural question for myself. Others are attempting to do the same.

[Stewart]

Really the biggest problem with sims in General is no depth perception and no feel of the aircraft. It is the same as a driving simulator you can not judge distance and you can not feel the road two of the biggest inputs your brain use are just not there. Curves or no curves your brain is numb to the sensation. Like someone posted "it is easier with the Rift" at least with depth perception it would give one sense back to you. Like I said a good force feedback stick would give you the feel back but unfortunately there are no good HOTAS FF sticks. So the Rift is our saving Grace for depth perception lets just hope it is good.

[SharpeXB]

To test whether or not stick curves might help you with AAR

Try strafing a stationary ground target and if you can hold the pipper steady on the target, you don't need any curves for AAR. If you can't hold it steady despite a good ammount of practice start adding curve until you can. Use the smallest ammout that allows you to have control.

Don't use AAR as a measure of whether or not you should use curves because it's such a difficult task to start with.

[PFunk1606688187]

I went to write a long ass reply but I figure this is a better way to justify the "suck" argument.

 

PROBLEM: (summary of comments) How do RL pilots perform AAR with ease while I'm working for so long to master the operation.. I'm good with all other operations in the sim, so why is this one so difficult?

 

PROBABLE ROOT CAUSES:

You suck because you have flown about 5% of the hours a real pilot would have by the time they see a real tanker

You have not practiced in a regimented environment and have spent almost none of your insufficiently few hours practicing the esoteric skill set known as formation flying

PROBABLE SOLUTIONS:

Ensure you fly more hours

Ensure those hours flown are done in a way thats useful to practice and not just dicking around

Actually try to practice real administrative formation flying instead of that weak stuff you see people do in videos that amounts to nothing more than a very close chase formation which handles instead like a tactical formation

 

 

I think curves are no short cut for time spent learning to fly properly, which is what really makes AAR easier for real pilots. Hours spent doing it. Thats a miraculous human metric for skill and only those talented mofos get to cut those hours down to the bone and get away with it. Unfortunately most of us are untalented hacks, but its okay, we can still learn.

 

Formation flying is part of every phase of a pilot's sortie in military flights barring breaking up for some reason or another. Most DCS players only do formation flying or something barely resembling it near the tanker. If we didn't have CCIP in these planes dropping Mk82s or Rockets or using the Gun would involve just as much practice as this, if not more. Modern tech makes it easy to be really generally poor at flying and get the job done. Tanking hasn't been handicapped this way.

 

Fly more hours, pick one control scheme and stick with it after trying out a couple variations to see if that'll get things to work, but stick with one if it doesn't and just carry on. Practice practice practice. That's my final word.*

 

 

*If you know me you'll know thats a lie

[Stewart]

P*Funk is dead on set it to where it feels good to you in normal flying then keep it there I know a lot of people that keep messing with their setup even in IL2 and never get flying down because of it. Stick to something that feels good and Practice it.

 

Really AAR is a form of formation flying the better at formations the better you should be with AAR. Maybe instead of practicing AAR you should start with formations then close formations.

[StrongHarm]

That's a lot of assumptions there buddy. I do fall under most of those categories and am indeed a hack compared to the men who go out there and do it every day no doubt. I'd still love to learn what curve settings bring my TMWH closest to RL A-10C stick to flight surface ratio.

 

Now, I'm no RL hawg pilot without a doubt but I do have a decent understanding of aviation. I was in US naval aviation, passed the NATOPS test, took the stick in more than one Navy bird, put several hundred hours in the Cessna Cherokee, started sims in the 90s, and started flying DCS A-10C Warthog as a tester long before it came out on the market. Assuming you'll throw me enough of a bone to believe I know what I'm doing as well as any slouch, I can tell you that I didn't have AAR down until I started washing the box and set my curves up a bit... and still would LOVE to know the "most realistic axis curve settings".

[Snoopy]

Best suggestion I can make....stop spending so much time on the forums (myself included) and fly, that's really the only way to get better at anything in the A-10C.

 

We can all argue until we're blue in the face on what works but truth is it's different for every virtual pilot.

[StrongHarm]

Best suggestion I can make....stop spending so much time on the forums (myself included) and fly, that's really the only way to get better at anything in the A-10C.

 

LOL words of wisdom! I believe I'll heed them this very moment..

(while my mind continues to wonder at the disparities between the real stick/airframe and my axis curves)

[Kimi_uy]

Regarding curves, I used to have roll/pitch at 25 (X-52) and it made me rubberband like crazy when trying to do AAR. Later i watched a video of Bunyap where he said something along the lines of "try to keep the curves as linear as possible, since that's how the aircraft has been represented by the developers/testers". And after that I changed to 3 to 5 on the curves and I've never had to struggle with AAR ever again.

That's my own personal experience and what Bunyap said made a lot of sense for me.

[Bucic]

Regarding curves, I used to have roll/pitch at 25 (X-52) and it made me rubberband like crazy when trying to do AAR. Later i watched a video of Bunyap where he said something along the lines of "try to keep the curves as linear as possible, since that's how the aircraft has been represented by the developers/testers". And after that I changed to 3 to 5 on the curves and I've never had to struggle with AAR ever again.

That's my own personal experience and what Bunyap said made a lot of sense for me.

Curves:

As linear as possible, that sums it up and I don't see why it would start such a heated discussion.

 

Dead zone:

Avoid at all cost. Period.

Joystick configuration tips and advices

 

Poor centering mechanisms:

This is where most sticks fall really short. Every time you do an adjustment involving a movement of passing through near neutrum you'll get that notch that porks your intended smooth movement.

 

1. Trimming nose-heavy:

Trimming nose heavy is an excellent trick to stay away from the wanky centers designed by post-pharmaceutical-testing chimps.

 

2. Modding centering mechanisms:

I really recommend it if you can't afford a DIY stick. It took me half an hour, including the tuning.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1024168&postcount=1160

 

 

MiG-21Bis » Why the game manual recommends curvature and a dead zone?

On crappy potentiometers

[rajdary]

To the OP, isnt there some type of auto AA refuel? Like auto Start.

[Pinefang]

There is no auto AA. That would defeat the whole purpose of learning how to do it anyway

[Pinefang]

P-Funk, being the OP I have tried using curves however I only resorted to them after many hours of trying without them. I find them an even higher compromise than we already have to deal with so prefer not to use them.