F-117

[Mizzy]

not picking on "mizzy" alone - but i want to make a comment regarding statements such as these

 

when you say such-and-such "modern" aircraft still has classified systems therefore it can't (shouldn't?) be attempted to model at DCS-level....... you realize what you're REALLY saying is.. you don't think modern aircraft in general should even be attempted - right?

 

 

why don't you just put it in your signature...

 

"ED, please do not model ANY modern era aircraft because there are classified systems onboard and we don't want you to attempt to simulate any aircraft that isn't 100% verified and validated TRUE-TO-LIFE, no holds barred, no exceptions, no excuses"

 

 

or, did i miss something? is this simulator called "Digital Old/Declassified/Defunct/Obsolete Combat Simulator"?

 

because that's what it sounds like you want

 

I think you read too much into what I said and suspect this isn't the only tiime..You have decided to add your OWN interpretation and your interpretation has nothing to do with what I said. All I said was the F117 is probably still classified regardless if it's in service or not. I never said anything about Eagle Dynamics DCS should not model the aircraft!, You read far too much into nothing. Please don't use my name and then say :

"you realize what you're REALLY saying is.. you don't think modern aircraft in general should even be attempted - right?" That is simply your words not mine. Keep your misinterpretations to yourself please. Friendly warning as this really has p**sd me off !

[NineLine]

Oh I love all of you, because a simple mission file can send you all wacky ;)

 

Play nice peoples... it is nothing to get worked up about.

[Wolf Rider]

yep... there's nothing like seeing the "cat which inadvertently found its way into a Dog Show" :)

 

 

 

It would be nice to have the F-117 in the DCS stable, but it would be better if the "systems", etc, were modelled accurately (when de-classified) rather than guesstimated whilst still classified

[mvsgas]

As I mention earlier, there is no classified avionics IIRC. As of 2004:

- Engine monitoring instruments is similar to the F/A-18A, but without the nozzle position. Makes since since it has similar engines.

- Navigation is the same found in the A-10C

- Flight control computer panel (FLCS) is the same as the F-16 block 10 (AFAIK)

- FLIR and DLIR (downward looking infrared) the same as any TGP using the center screen in the cockpit.

- 2 CMFD like the ones found on the F-16 or A-10C.

 

Many other things like this. Form landing gear to actuator to the throttles. Basically they grab what was available from other airframes. Hell, the main landing gear door actuator and lock mechanism look very similar to the F-104 system.

[Tirak]

not picking on "mizzy" alone - but i want to make a comment regarding statements such as these

 

when you say such-and-such "modern" aircraft still has classified systems therefore it can't (shouldn't?) be attempted to model at DCS-level....... you realize what you're REALLY saying is.. you don't think modern aircraft in general should even be attempted - right?

 

 

why don't you just put it in your signature...

 

"ED, please do not model ANY modern era aircraft because there are classified systems onboard and we don't want you to attempt to simulate any aircraft that isn't 100% verified and validated TRUE-TO-LIFE, no holds barred, no exceptions, no excuses"

 

 

or, did i miss something? is this simulator called "Digital Old/Declassified/Defunct/Obsolete Combat Simulator"?

 

because that's what it sounds like you want

 

I don't know about others, but for me I wonder about licensing agreements. Making full DCS clickable cockpit level simulations and making profit on them requires a license. The company in question may not be able to because of the status of the jet in relation to armed forces, or because of perceived loss of proprietary research. Sure, things may seem simple and straight forward, or blindingly obvious, but the more modern a jet, the less likely to get permission from the company to do systems modeling.

 

Hell, the FC3 level Super Hornet that Eric wanted to make got shut down in less than a week because... well I don't know why but it was assumed that the ED moderators thought classified information was being asked for, even though it wasn't. It's hard to make modern modules under that cloud.

[SinusoidDelta]

Who needs a DCS F-117 when we already have this masterpiece?;)

[zantron]

As I mention earlier, there is no classified avionics IIRC. As of 2004:

- Engine monitoring instruments is similar to the F/A-18A, but without the nozzle position. Makes since since it has similar engines.

- Navigation is the same found in the A-10C

- Flight control computer panel (FLCS) is the same as the F-16 block 10 (AFAIK)

- FLIR and DLIR (downward looking infrared) the same as any TGP using the center screen in the cockpit.

- 2 CMFD like the ones found on the F-16 or A-10C.

 

Many other things like this. Form landing gear to actuator to the throttles. Basically they grab what was available from other airframes. Hell, the main landing gear door actuator and lock mechanism look very similar to the F-104 system.

yeah i was going to say, the real thing is a typical regular military plane under the skin.. making it wouldnt any more difficult than any other fighter for dcs, probably easier since it doesnt have a radar. while it would have a cool factor at first the more i think of it it probably get boring carrying two bombs and pretty much baby sitting the autopilot for the entire mission

 

even though retired they still go up occasionally http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/11/we-now-know-why-the-f-117-is-still-flying/

[SilentGun]

ya know he is just trolling us now. first the f-117 now the H-19?

[Body Farm]

ya know he is just trolling us now. first the f-117 now the H-19?

 

Exactly what I was thinking, although a radial engine helicopter would be a blast!

[NineLine]

ya know he is just trolling us now. first the f-117 now the H-19?

 

In his defense, I have missions named after AI aircraft just for the purpose of video recording or AI operations for testing.

[SinusoidDelta]

Regardless of being classified, CFD analysis of the F-117 would be a nightmare in addition to modeling the flight control system. It's a jet that did not want to fly. I'd rather have a bomber like the B1

[Buzzles]

Regardless of being classified, CFD analysis of the F-117 would be a nightmare in addition to modeling the flight control system. It's a jet that did not want to fly. I'd rather have a bomber like the B1

 

From what I've read, while it wasn't the most aerodynamic, it certainly wasn't a difficult jet to fly and apparently flew quite well.

[SinusoidDelta]

I'm just speculating from a systems modeling point of view. The F-117 was a relaxed static stability aircraft and not flyable without the extremely resilient FBW system that was developed. I think AOA was limited to 17deg, it's ceiling was like 25,000 ft. @ Mach 0.8 and it was G-limited to +3/-1 G. I suppose a flight envelope that small would be easy to model but outside of that envelope it would almost be guess work.

[Mike Busutil]

...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2015 by Mike Busutil

[SilentGun]

where did you get those...

[SinusoidDelta]

Is that a Milviz model?

[Mike Busutil]

where did you get those...

 

It's from an older russian DCS forum.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=56168

[SinusoidDelta]

Interesting. It looks like the same 3D model that's available for purchase on cgtrader and turbosquid.

[Wizard_03]

I don't think it is likely they are doing a full DCS level F-117 but the mission name would at the very least suggest a new 3D model, and the fact that Groom Lake is in the new map...kinda makes sense to have it.

 

But I really don't see any problems with devolving a full DCS level model, the avionics are simple enough and the data is not too classified anymore, at least for the systems, Also stealth wouldn't be too difficult to model for the sim. I guess one problem would be to determine just how stealthy the F-117 is or how small to make the RCS cause data on that would definitely be classified. That being said they would just have to make some educated guesses and I don't think people will really care cause no one would be able to tell the difference so yeah its possible.

 

If they were making one, I don't think they would tell anyone till is released, they'd prolly just put it up on the site and watch people loose their minds. ;)

Edited July 9, 2015 by Wizard_03

[rcjonessnp175]

Maybe its a f117 stream to demonstrate the new dynamics of radar simulation in the sim? Ecm and stealth?

[SDsc0rch]

i was just going to say that

 

just like ED will take one platform to investigate and develop an area of the sim (ie.. F-15 PFM developed supersonic flight-model, f/a-18 is testbed for air-to-ground radar, there's another aircraft for dual-seat, etc), perhaps the f-117 is the platform to enhance radar and RCS modeling (???)

 

one can only hope

[SinusoidDelta]

I remember reading the F-117 had an RCS the size of a bird and B-2 has an RCS the size of a marble. The only F-117 shot down was allegedly due Serbians using long wave radar to detect when the bomb bay doors opened.

 

I am curious how detailed the RCS of aircraft is modeled in the game. Perhaps modeling a real life stealth technology demonstrator like the F-117 help create a better radar model.

[GGTharos]

It's just a track for streaming. RCS is already modeled in the game, it always was (factors into countermeasure rejection probability).

 

As for the real F-117, it had nothing to do with 'long wave radar', 'open bomb bay doors' or any other funny business.

 

What happened is simply this: Those SAM sites are mobile, and the Serbs did not keep them in one place, and wisely so.

 

Thus the probably SAM defense drawn on NATO maps was basically a shape/circle surrounding Belgrade; anywhere within that line you were in danger of running into a SAM.

 

And that's exactly what happened with that (And another) F-117: They found themselves too close to those SAMs when the radar started operating, and they were legitimately detected and launched on at close range (around 30km or less, engagement was IIRC at around 17km).

 

Stealth is there to help you sneak between the radar ... but it really helps if you know where they are.

[Cali]

I'd love to fly that thing!

[Rangi]

It's just a track for streaming. RCS is already modeled in the game, it always was (factors into countermeasure rejection probability).

 

As for the real F-117, it had nothing to do with 'long wave radar', 'open bomb bay doors' or any other funny business.

 

What happened is simply this: Those SAM sites are mobile, and the Serbs did not keep them in one place, and wisely so.

 

Thus the probably SAM defense drawn on NATO maps was basically a shape/circle surrounding Belgrade; anywhere within that line you were in danger of running into a SAM.

 

And that's exactly what happened with that (And another) F-117: They found themselves too close to those SAMs when the radar started operating, and they were legitimately detected and launched on at close range (around 30km or less, engagement was IIRC at around 17km).

 

Stealth is there to help you sneak between the radar ... but it really helps if you know where they are.

 

They also used spotters to listen for aircraft and phone the radar guys to tell them one was heading their way. So they knew they had a good chance of having an aircraft nearby when they switched on.