Russian missiles - usage, bug, problems, advantages

[Sleksa]

ET/ER combos can be just as deadly as a well shot slammer. Bottom line is, that you need to have the SA to identify enemy positions and launches and the 15 is just far better at this.

 

The other bottom line is that you'd be shocked by how extremely difficult it is to kill a competent driver in a serious event like JW or SATAC. Most deaths are a direct result of lacking SA or a series of mistakes from one of the drivers.

 

The Eagle is clearly a better BVR fighter and has numerous other advantages but the point is that for some reason people pretend russian jets should defeat an 15s by flying like a 15. If you fight with your fist as if you had a sword against a guy with an actual sword then no shit you will lose.

 

Like I said, pretty much every multiplayer event. We lost the 51st in one of the JWs for instance, and there have been a hell of a lot more.

 

ERs get low amount of kills because nobody can ever afford to support missiles in a multiplayer event. If you try to guide a missile until impact in a standard situation I can guarantee you you're gonna die every time.

 

 

My perspective here. Every time I don't respect a launch I'm shot down. Unless the guy just sucks and doesn't know how to properly launch. And you know damn well I'm not the type of guy who does barrel rolls chaffing and praying that the ER'll just go dumb :)

 

I agree with the vast majority of what you said. Most of the deaths in multiplayer setting come as a result of a series of mistakes and/or lack of situational awareness. This seems to be quite a universal thing for all the aircraft.

 

Another point you're raising is the missile supporting. The ability to break as soon as the missile goes active makes the F-15 a lot safer platform to fight from, and the fact that the target aircraft gets a proper warning not when the missile is fired, but rather when it goes active is a thing that creates huge advantages if we look at average multiplayer games where the people flying might not be as good at reading subtle indications of incoming attacks as the people attending organized events as a part of a bigger group.

 

The only thing I'd disagree on is the ER/ET combo. The theoretical range advantage is only really applicable from long ranges, where the attacks can be seen coming miles away and can easily be avoided by the prior mentioned return amraam+3/9 to break the lock and disengage to drag the chasing plane to your friend's crosshairs. The only real advantage comes when you get on a advantageous position (below and behind) to find and fire without alerting the RWR. In such a situation you'd never want to fire ER's in the first place though because they'd only alert the target aircraft.

[Esac_mirmidon]

No "massive" advantage anywhere my friend.

 

Yes it has very strong points, and if pilots fly the Eagle smart enough they will retain the edge mor often but Flanker pilots has also they strong points and they are fighting in MP without working datalink between fighters and with a poor missile behaviour ( shared for all missiles, not only the ER ).

 

So with improvements in this area, the Aim-120 could be more deadly but also the ER and Aim-7.

 

Brilliant future await us in DCS.

[Frostie]

Because the Eagles TTA will always be sooner than the Flankers TTI. That will literally never change (barring major disadvatages). Cheapshot capability is even basically there now.

 

That is not a doubt, the F-15 has its own issues in this regard too where there is no respect for long range actives but what this boils down to is the respect only happens at virtually WVR where any idea of BVR tactics is lost on fire and forget and run or what is being said here regarding 27v27, press, flare and chaff to force the merge for guns.

[*Rage*]

Because the Eagles TTA will always be sooner than the Flankers TTI. That will literally never change (barring major disadvatages). Cheapshot capability is even basically there now.

 

Thats not what we're arguing. The fact that the ER/ET is so easily spoofed is exploited. You never have to wait till TTA to turn cold. You dont need to turn cold at all most of the time. Chaff and Flares and ground clutter is all thats needed. Its nothing to do with TTA, TTI or missile ranges. I'm happy with the missile kinetics as they are now.

 

Edit: sniped by Frostie:)

[blkspade]

That is not a doubt, the F-15 has its own issues in this regard too where there is no respect for long range actives but what this boils down to is the respect only happens at virtually WVR where any idea of BVR tactics is lost on fire and forget and run or what is being said here regarding 27v27, press, flare and chaff to force the merge for guns.

 

Ironically we are arguing why guns remain a realistic need IRL. As the 120 can be spoofed for the same reasons (more so to ground clutter).

[TAW_Blaze]

Another point you're raising is the missile supporting. The ability to break as soon as the missile goes active makes the F-15 a lot safer platform to fight from, and the fact that the target aircraft gets a proper warning not when the missile is fired, but rather when it goes active is a thing that creates huge advantages if we look at average multiplayer games where the people flying might not be as good at reading subtle indications of incoming attacks as the people attending organized events as a part of a bigger group.

 

It probably is a more idiot friendly aircraft but we shouldn't judge a plane's capability based on the perception of the incapables, should we? :D

 

The only thing I'd disagree on is the ER/ET combo. The theoretical range advantage is only really applicable from long ranges, where the attacks can be seen coming miles away and can easily be avoided by the prior mentioned return amraam+3/9 to break the lock and disengage to drag the chasing plane to your friend's crosshairs. The only real advantage comes when you get on a advantageous position (below and behind) to find and fire without alerting the RWR. In such a situation you'd never want to fire ER's in the first place though because they'd only alert the target aircraft.

 

Range is only a thing at high altitude. The most important aspect is the speed / acceleration. In a busy situation you can't always know who fired and what, there could be multiple missiles from multiple directions in the air and you can't be sure even if you see them visually. This can also apply to slammers but silent flankers are much harder to spot because of not emitting any signal, therefore reducing their exposure to where you're looking with your radar / eyes.

 

The combination of different guidances can also put you in a pickle, you want to be on the burners against one, and idle against the other.

[Teknetinium]

In DCS a MP player evade more then 1000 missiles in 10 flights. A real life pilot evade one missile at best in his carer. So the way MP look today dose not feel as RL at all. there is no respect for missiles. And if someone want to argue that they are doing it for the realism, cant not argue and prove that missile seekers and tracking was less realistic in FC1 or FC2 where MP felt much more realistic to me.

 

I do agree whit EDs approach and belive missiles probably miss more in RL then in DCS. But we need to compensate for our overwhelming intelligence about our opponents. Or it dose lead to victory by exploits, not skill or tactics.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Teknetinium

[TAW_Blaze]

In DCS a MP player evade more then 1000 missiles in 10 flights. A real life pilot evade one missile at best in his carer. So the way MP look today dose not feel as RL at all. there is no respect for missiles. And if someone want to argue that they are doing it for the realism, cant not argue and prove that missile seekers and tracking was less realistic in FC1 or FC2 where MP felt much more realistic to me.

 

IRL you don't get to know what the other side is exactly capable of and you also don't get to learn what works and what doesn't by a thousand tries and failures. So this argument is just senseless. A good virtual pilot will always fly a hell of a lot closer to the knife's edge than any reasonable real one would. Simply because he knows what he's up against and what he can get away with down to the meters.

[Teknetinium]

IRL you don't get to know what the other side is exactly capable of and you also don't get to learn what works and what doesn't by a thousand tries and failures. So this argument is just senseless. A good virtual pilot will always fly a hell of a lot closer to the knife's edge than any reasonable real one would. Simply because he knows what he's up against and what he can get away with down to the meters.

 

We need to compensate for our overwhelming intelligence about our opponents. Or it dose lead to victory by exploits, not skill or tactics.

[TAW_Blaze]

We need to compensate for our overwhelming intelligence about our opponents. Or it dose lead to victory by exploits, not skill or tactics.

 

That would require to alter the simulation to become bullshit. It's a special skillset on it's own to know how to abuse the weakness of your opponent's equipment.

[Teknetinium]

That would require to alter the simulation to become bullshit. It's a special skillset on it's own to know how to abuse the weakness of your opponent's equipment.

 

People did fly this simulator in FC1 and FC2 what makes you think that tracking was less realistic then?

[TAW_Blaze]

People did fly this simulator in FC1 and FC2 what makes you think that tracking was less realistic then?

 

It has nothing to do with tracking. It has everything to do with the fact that you can ask your buddy or however amount of players to just fly for you and you can test everything over and over. It doesn't matter how shitty the guidance is, if you bank on a random thing to defeat missiles you won't survive for long. Let me guess your defense against an opposing ER isn't flying straight or barrel rolling and chaffing, is it?

[Teknetinium]

I have a great deal experience in MP since FC1 as you know. And I would say whit no doubt that players are taking more risk now compere to FC1. That leads to less realistic MP environment compere to FC1 and FC2 if you ask me.

I believe this regards all missiles not Russian only.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Teknetinium

[TAW_Blaze]

I have a great deal experience in MP since FC1 as you know. And I would say whit no doubt that players are taking more risk now compere to FC1. That leads to less realistic environment compere to FC1 and FC2.

 

Because ranges are far shorter. You shouldn't forget the maddog spam and the part where missiles ignored physics. So being more realistic is arguable. :D

 

The fact that people had more years to learn also probably contributes to taking more risks.

[domini99]

Is it tracking you (actually turning to hit you), or is it just your RWR memory?

The missile is usually still trying but unable as it has usually already ran out of energy.

 

But it's still twitching and trying to turn even after it has passed me.

It's weird

[TAW_Blaze]

The missile is usually still trying but unable as it has usually already ran out of energy.

 

But it's still twitching and trying to turn even after it has passed me.

It's weird

 

I don't know if this was changed since a few months but I figure it wasn't, it was related to how the seeker of the missile was able to keep you in it's field of view despite how stupid the angle was, you could have had a slammer falling vertically down and it'd still lock you until it slammed the ground.

[whitehot]

my feeling is that the Eagle has been brought by the devs near to its ideal point of performance in DCS - while the Flanker is still somehow away from it. I used to fly MP in both FC1 and FC2. With FC3 at some point there has been a situation in which Eagle drivers carried Sparrows because the Aim120s were totally broken by an update. The following mayor update had fixed the 120s, only to render the russian (both AR and SARH) radar msls very less capable (the performance reduction seems to me pretty much in the field of tracking efficiency, not much alteration on kinetics, athough I may be wrong).

Now it's really been a long while that this situation is up, and as a player who flies both Eagles and Flankers, the effect I have is that MP in both is much less fun.

 

To add to this, I believe that the advantages the Flanker may have in RL over the Eagle are undermodeled, if modeled at all in DCS. The datalink does not perform like it should. also most MP missions are designed to give balance to the "game", yet this results in some unbalance to the "simulator".

 

I really hope that the problems with the RU missiles are not dictated by "politics", the biggest example being the R-77, which is a basically useless weapon in DCS. If the devs can't render the performance of these systems, because of lack of data or because that would mean to publish state secrets, I would prefer to have a sim with previous generation fighters (like Mig-23s vs Phantoms), but with their systems tuned to the highest possible realism.

 

I understand the point of many folks stating that a proficient Flanker driver is not at a high disadvantage against a similar Eagle opponent. Yet many times I found out the hard way that, after employing successful tactics and getting advantage over Eagles, the tech would "betray me" by missing or being spoofed blatantly.

 

I still hope that the discussed systems will get a better tuning in the future. By devs admission, the missile modeling is very precarious currently - although I was wondering why it affects very negatively only certain weapons.

[*Rage*]

It has nothing to do with tracking. It has everything to do with the fact that you can ask your buddy or however amount of players to just fly for you and you can test everything over and over. It doesn't matter how shitty the guidance is' date=' if you bank on a random thing to defeat missiles you won't survive for long. Let me guess your defense against an opposing ER isn't flying straight or barrel rolling and chaffing, is it?[/quote']

 

Definition of 'random' - of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

 

Its not banking on a random thing. I did some testing with Breakshot Su27 vs F15 and he could spoof every missile (ER/ET/73) I fired at him and all had sufficient energy to maneuver and intercept. It really is that easy, predictable and reproducible. Not random. And we dont even fly or train the F15.

 

Because ranges are far shorter. You shouldn't forget the maddog spam and the part where missiles ignored physics. So being more realistic is arguable. :D

 

The fact that people had more years to learn also probably contributes to taking more risks.

 

And people had more years to learn the exploits that work. Its not a range issue. Its guidance.

Edited October 13, 2015 by ///Rage

[TAW_Blaze]

Definition of 'random' - of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

 

In case of a yes no problem this isn't true at all. It could be a 0.1% chance for all I cared it'd still would apply as random.

 

Its not banking on a random thing. I did some testing with Breakshot Su27 vs F15 and he could spoof every missile (ER/ET/73) I fired at him and all had sufficient energy to maneuver and intercept. It really is that easy, predictable and reproducible. Not random. And we dont even fly or train the F15.

 

Yet I still usually get shot down by ERs if I'm in a bad spot. But I know we'll never agree on this because we've had this discussion many times, so I'm just gonna go ahead and stop bothering each other. :)

[FLANKERATOR]

 

Its not banking on a random thing. I did some testing with Breakshot Su27 vs F15 and he could spoof every missile (ER/ET/73) I fired at him and all had sufficient energy to maneuver and intercept. It really is that easy, predictable and reproducible. Not random. And we dont even fly or train the F15.

 

I'd like to watch that acmi if possible please?

[Breakshot]

^Rage should have it.

 

The thing is, given the 15s smaller cross section modeled in DCS?, ERs perform very miserably even in simple crank situations with limited maneuvering. You can be pretty poor in your positioning and still get away with it easily. In contrast, an ER fired on a Su 27 performs pretty well in exact same conditions.

 

But that's the smaller of the problems. The bigger issue is the IR missiles. They eat flares like Christmas presents. Even just one drop of flares works with huge % of success. It's quite ridiculous. You see a missile, drop one flare, you're safe. I mean it works so well now, you can even go gate and drop flares, the missiles just love them. Against any half decent pilot who would be dropping flares pre emptively, IR missiles are just worthless....

 

Something is certainly off in latest hotfix. I was under the impression all IR missiles should have been given a boost in flare rejection in 1.5?

 

Can the Devs clarify what is actually done with the missiles since 1.2?

[domini99]

You know what...

When the Typhoon gets released, it should come with the AIM-132 ASRAAM

 

I wonder how they will model this thing in DCS, in real life it should have really really good countermeasure resistance and be almost impossible to decoy.

 

The second thing I'm interested in is how many servers are gonna ban it because it is too powerful....

[karambiatos]

Let me guess your defense against an opposing ER isn't flying straight or barrel rolling and chaffing' date=' is it?[/quote']

*cough* it works though *cough*

 

even against aim-120s up until NEZ.

 

When it comes to IR missiles, that's the only kind of defense since it works so incredibly well.

[AussieGhost789]

You know what...

When the Typhoon gets released, it should come with the AIM-132 ASRAAM

 

I wonder how they will model this thing in DCS, in real life it should have really really good countermeasure resistance and be almost impossible to decoy.

 

The second thing I'm interested in is how many servers are gonna ban it because it is too powerful....

 

Well then I hope we get it on the Hornet too! ^.^

[Nerd1000]

You know what...

When the Typhoon gets released, it should come with the AIM-132 ASRAAM

 

I wonder how they will model this thing in DCS, in real life it should have really really good countermeasure resistance and be almost impossible to decoy.

 

The second thing I'm interested in is how many servers are gonna ban it because it is too powerful....

 

Not to mention off-boresight abilities superior to the R-73, a 50g maneuvering limit and lock on after launch for shooting at targets behind you (requires a friend and link 16).