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4th Gen Fighters


Pikey
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A thought on the questions Wags posed on what we would want to see

 

Our first question was, what 4th gen multirole fighters are left, based on 3rd party and ED disclosed development pipeline and some assumptions on what information might be accessible to a DCS standard?

 

4th gen is a bit of a wide mark, given that 4.5gen really comes into play here with things like Superbug and avionics enhanced 80 and 90's planes. We think we can mostly exclude the 4.5 gen, probably some of the countries like Israel and China, being hard to obtain information, but who knows? AESA radar in FC3? Hmm, that's a problem..So let's take a look at what is left.

 

F-16?

 

Not a huge list, nothing we really clamoured for - Tonado ADV is not multirole, Gripen surely must be 4.5gen, F-15E/Superbug must be [verging?] 4.5?. Ideas?

 

We all voted for dynamic Campaigns ourselves, but interested in what the number 2 (current) vote spot could hold?

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F-16?

 

Not a huge list, nothing we really clamoured for

You probably just made a bunch of people gasp so hard they choked with that statement.

 

For convenience, there is a list of fourth generation stuff here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-generation_jet_fighter

 

Just because one variant of a plane is being made doesn't mean more variants are not desired. Sure, we already have an F-15C, but a lot of people would like to see an F-15E. My current top picks would be F-14D and Rafale M, but as far as I know neither of those are in development yet. Since VEAO is working on the Eurofighter, we can probably keep 4.5 gen on the list, at least to some extent, although those might end up being mostly guesswork rather than reality.

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So later in my statement I proposed that 4.5 gen doesn't count due to the technological challenges and secrets. VEAO's tranche version misses some things. And thus rules out Superbug and 15E and Rafa and Gripen due to supposed interesting ECCM ECM, AESA radar and other tricky stuff. The question is, is this fair, can we rule them out, are they all able to be documented enough to a DCS level? Thanks for the list of 4th gen fighters, there are disagreements your wikipedia list on what is 4th gen or not, but for the sake of argument - you are saying, 4.5 gen should be included, yes, and if so, how do you know Wags was not excluding it?


Edited by Pikey
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VEAO has a Eurofighter coming, and they have a Rafale on their planned development list. Whether or not these will qualify as DCS level or not, we can't really say until closer to release. The truth is that most of us probably won't know enough about the classified systems to notice what is missing or inaccurate.

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MiG-29 ?

SU-27 ?

 

:)

I think these two are the most obvious choices for fighters but he saifd multirole. Would that be something that Eagle Dynamics are likely to do given their partial modelling and existing product?


Edited by Pikey
multirole

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VEAO has a Eurofighter coming, and they have a Rafale on their planned development list. Whether or not these will qualify as DCS level or not, we can't really say until closer to release. The truth is that most of us probably won't know enough about the classified systems to notice what is missing or inaccurate.

Given the question was from Eagle Dynamics we should discount third partioes when answering if we want 4th gen multirole

 

And remember, he said multirole.

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Given the question was from Eagle Dynamics we should discount third partioes when answering if we want 4th gen multirole

I was simply pointing out that it is possible for a 4.5 generation plane to be modeled to a standard that ED is willing to enter a contract on. ED might have stricter standards on data availability when it comes to their internal development decisions, which is probably why they went for the F/A-18C instead of the F/A-18E. It probably comes down to availability more than interest, and in that case anything more modern will be more restricted, but probably not outright rejected.

And remember, he said multirole.
both the Eurofighter and Rafale are multirole, although the specific variant of the Eurofighter that VEAO is modeling is focused on air to air.

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So - given Veao having Rafa and Tiffy, then whats left for reasonable 4.5 gen for ED to produce? Gripen? Superbug unlikely given no one likes variants yet, F-15E is it a variant, hmm, will it capture a new market?

Where am I going with this? I'm wondering what the choices are in his question and i'm wondering exactly what 4th gen multirole people are wishing for in the poll, also given the development time are people really willing to wait that long for it over a dynamic campaign?

 

Just some thoughts...

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One thing I would like to see is just a few improvements to the FC3 aircraft. Based on my limited knowledge of coding, I honestly don't expect any of the FC3 aircraft to be "Brought up" to full DCS standards. However, it would be nice if some of the more often used systems and controls got "tweaked". For example...

 

I would like to see the F-15 HOTAS controls coded to perform the correct functions. I.E. "ACQ FORWARD" or AFT cycles the appropriate radar modes, "CASTLE SWITCH" left or right performed the correct function etc. The ability to partially open the speed break would be nice too...

 

Things like that would go along way toward improving the use ability of some of the FC 3 aircraft.

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What poll is this exactly?

 

I'd like a F-15, FC3 is not a replacement for a DCS module. Tornado ADV being single role is fine by me as well.

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I'm also a bit suprised by the 4th gen hype in that poll. There're already 4th gen fighters in development and like Pikey said the options for more are pretty limited. There are so many other cool things on that poll (yes, Dynamic Campaign, but others as well) that I don't really understand why so many people vote for the 4th gen fighters as the MOST important thing for future DCS development.

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F-16?

 

 

The F-16 have in "develop" by ED some time ago.... :music_whistling:

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I'd really love the FC3 fighters being made into full modules and the F-16 but it feels unlikely given the idea that to make money the ideas seem to have to be original, so hence i'm not sure what 4th gen would really be likely and would love to know what folks are imagining could be options, the other options are definitive...they are fairly well explained, this one seems to be vague, and potentially cost a lot and be a lot further away. Hence this post, is the campaign idea worth giving up on?

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Cool, i don't recall seeing any reference apart from their AI work. Is that something you can refer to?

 

 

nothing "hard" but we have some clues.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1996107&postcount=52

 

F-16%20Cockpit.jpg

 

apperently that cockpit was on the russian forums. it apperently even predates the A10C cockpit, why it was cancelled or put on hold is unknown

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Well that was a short poll, I would not even have seen it had it not been for this thread. Rather than aircraft, I think AI and passing info to the player is what we need most.

 

On the aircraft themselves though, you could perhaps try to squeeze in some older airframe upgrades into 4th gen. Things like modernized MiG-21, F-4, F-5, etc. The upgrade in weapons/avionics and sometimes engine, etc, make them pretty distinct from their original versions.

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The upgrade in weapons/avionics and sometimes engine, etc, make them pretty distinct from their original versions.
I agree with that. There is a massive difference in capability between the MiG-21F and a MiG-21-97 which can fire R-77s. Avionics and systems upgrades are often more important and expensive than the airframe itself. That's why we are still flying some aircraft from the 50s.

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nothing "hard" but we have some clues.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1996107&postcount=52

 

F-16%20Cockpit.jpg

 

apperently that cockpit was on the russian forums. it apperently even predates the A10C cockpit, why it was cancelled or put on hold is unknown

 

Last news coming to the Feb-2014

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1996107&postcount=52

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I know that the ED F-16's development continues. I don't know the details.

 

News AI F-16C and D 3D models comming to DCS: W

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yes I put that link in my post as well :) might be slightly confusing just above the image. In the roadmap you maintain you stated F16C as a module for year 201?. I wonder where you got the info from that it's a C model and not any of the others? although most of us are probably longing for the F16C block 50/52 :) I really hope its 50/52 so it can carry AGM-88 for SEAD, JSOW AGM 154 glidebomb with 130km range and JDAM bombs amongs other weapons an F16 can carry

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I think some 4th gen aircraft from 80s to 90s would be plausible. "How many of them are multirole" is, though, another question.

 

F-18C already in works, Mirage 2000C (although this one is not quite multirole) about to be released. There may also be rare 4.5 gen ones like VEAO's Typhoon but I don't think that particular module is representative of "see 4.5 gen can be done". VEAO having access to them and getting permit to do an early block looks more like a special case. Besides, module may not even feature precision guided A-G weaponry. Also, while it is not certain yet, if Leatherneck's F-14B feature LANTIRN and LGBs, we could include it among multirole 4th gen as well.

 

Other obvious, largely declassified and popular multirole 4th gen is F-16C, Block 40 or Block 50, as in BMS can eventually come to DCS but I personally don't expect it too quickly after F-18.

 

I don't think an early-ish F-15E is out of question too. Would love one to be honest :).

 

What else ? Well I personally would love post '90 Russian aircraft, actually even more so than Western ones, but, it just doesn't look too likely to happen.

 

Also, if we define multirole as being able to do air to air pretty good and also being able to use some guided air to ground weaponry, we then need to consider that 4th gen Russian aircraft which can do that entered service pretty late.

 

Some export Su-30s were and are pretty darn sexy but export variants / export only upgrades etc may be harder to get licences / permissions, especially with their tendency of featuring equipment of multiple different origins.

 

Chinese 4th gen aircraft are likely out of question too.

 

Rafale and Gripen, pretty much 4.5 gen and I'm not sure how plausible they would be for an accurate module, especially the Rafale with plethora of advanced systems, and Dassault's infamy for being cold, even hostile, towards entertainment flight sim developments.

 

However, there are some 3rd gen aircraft that are multirole too, like F-4E, and may be some Mirage F-1 types, perhaps even AJ Viggens can be considered multirole-ish (at least as fighter bombers). These may well be plausible.

 

Another multirole possibility may be 2nd and 3rd gen jets that have seen extensive upgrades which gave them some 4th gen characteristics but, I don't think these are too likely to be released as I have stated above.

 

Seeing as community seem to have a burning desire for 4th gen multiroles, and, if I'm correct with my opinions above on just how few and "one sided" plausible options for such modules are, can't help but think "will this introduce an influx of heavily guess work modules". I guess they would sell like hot cakes, but certainly wouldn't be my cup of tea.

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You probably just made a bunch of people gasp so hard they choked with that statement.

 

Yep. Give me an F-16C of any kind, although LANTIRN is cool, and even I am worried what kind of cash I would fork over for that.

 

Also, there is an open-source AFM built for DCS of an F16 floating about somewhere, and ED has the cockpit stuff at least partially done..... :music_whistling:

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