Chaff and R27(E)R

[SDsc0rch]

sounds...... complicated

 

DCS = simplified radar model

[tflash]

But search and lock problem is within the range of 8 km, when it switches on "medium"freq.

 

 

Do you mean the RL radar switches to medium PRF within 8 km? Or is this also modeled in game?

[GGTharos]

F-15's radar almost always tries to transfer to HSTT+, but it will track in whichever mode is best at the time; with the exception of having an AIM-7 in flight: It the radar fails to transfer to HSTT+ at that time, it will go FLOOD.

 

That's reality. In-game, none of this is happening ... however, chaff also works better in rear-aspect in the game which is generally correct.

[Ragnarok]

Do you mean the RL radar switches to medium PRF within 8 km? Or is this also modeled in game?

 

RL radar switches to medium when you take "close mode". Like vertical or bore. In BVR mode, you have choice АВТ/ручно (automatic/manuel).

Also, when is "medium", radar in RL can't track or lock target with speed more than 1100km/h in HOT and 2500km/h in COLD :)

 

complex problems and if I have not yet talked about the radial speed and vetrical speed in "monitoring the passage" (like TWS) and shooting two targets with two R-27 on STT, and their condition for it. All you can to see what you mean to your device for radar separation target and they would see how we separated real target of chaff. :)

 

Edit: I talk for MiG-29A-B/Su-27S-SK. For eagle I less know :( ... but I believe that it is better in all parameters.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Ragnarok

[Ragnarok]

however, chaff also works better in rear-aspect in the game which is generally correct.

 

Yes. But there are factors fusion rates also, and altitude. For different frequency, different values closer to prosecution.

Generally yes, medium freq. for rear and medium is not good for natural or artificial interference. Why are some senses to make R-??T and EOS :)

 

"High" is good for that "rear" also but the speed of convergence must be greater. Against attacker example... more then 230km/h max range 20km for altitude more than 3km. No chance against fighter.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Ragnarok

[GGTharos]

Yep, there are additional factors.

 

In game the following is generally modeled:

 

Look down/up (countermeasures more effective in look-down)

Doppler effects (Specifically doppler notch and 0-blind speed)

Countermeasure effectiveness very roughly depends on target aspect

Number of countermeasures in missile's FoV (more CMs = more effective)

CM susceptibility factor

 

Probability of a sensor to be decoyed by CMs is initially constant, but modified by the above factors.

 

PRF has no effect on weapon capability in-game, it most defined detection and STT ranges for the parent aircraft at different target aspects.

[Haukka81]

Yep, there are additional factors.

 

In game the following is generally modeled:

 

Look down/up (countermeasures more effective in look-down)

Doppler effects (Specifically doppler notch and 0-blind speed)

Countermeasure effectiveness very roughly depends on target aspect

Number of countermeasures in missile's FoV (more CMs = more effective)

CM susceptibility factor

 

Probability of a sensor to be decoyed by CMs is initially constant, but modified by the above factors.

 

PRF has no effect on weapon capability in-game, it most defined detection and STT ranges for the parent aircraft at different target aspects.

 

 

So, all needed things are in but more tuning and adjusting is needed ?

[Ragnarok]

Yep, there are additional factors.

PRF has no effect on weapon capability in-game, it most defined detection and STT ranges for the parent aircraft at different target aspects.

 

In this situation in RL, it is clearly described harmonization BCVM (computer which synchronizes frequency radar, with the head SARH).

[GGTharos]

I believe this is part of why it takes a little time to launch the missile: The missile is tuned to the radar's exact transmission.

 

However the physics of this are not modeled in-game, and probably never will be (because I believe they are actually not needed most of the time).

[Ragnarok]

I believe this is part of why it takes a little time to launch the missile: The missile is tuned to the radar's exact transmission.

 

yes. this "little time" sometimes never comes.

 

However the physics of this are not modeled in-game, and probably never will be (because I believe they are actually not needed most of the time).

 

and it is not necessary. Many things are more important to tactics and the logic of it.

 

If you want the X factor, come to the server, you get mad lagging and other maddeningly things, and you've got all the unpredictable difficulties. :D joke

[Ragnarok]

So, all needed things are in but more tuning and adjusting is needed ?

 

What do you think the emergence HOTAS was accompanied by an eruption of of delight? :)

Edited December 15, 2015 by Ragnarok

[Nedum]

And now?

Is that all?

The Su27 is no BVR fighter anymore?

Will good changes coming after 3 years of waiting?

Each week I must send a bird to the rest.

The D-9 has lost all her power.

The K-4 can't land anymore.

And the Su27 is now a pure Dogfighter even with 60+ miles missiles?

It's ok if many of you show your knowledge here about that stuff. Nice reading.... really... but as long as the missiles are nearly useless for BVR fights the Su27 becomes a paper tiger and the dicsussion seems to be sensless!

The guys show vids with all missiles going chaff as soon as they get started, I can see it by myself and all I hear is "works well!" :huh:

So the next useless bird?

Only USA birds to fly well and work good?

I really can't believe it but it looks so for me right now! :cry:

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

What a joke :D

 

Just the other day I was watching AMRAAMs be unable to intercept another aircraft from just 15nm away at 35000' ...

 

So if you want to complain about BVR, complain about BVR, not youre favorite airplane ;)

[GGTharos]

It's just ECM simulation :D

 

If you want the X factor, come to the server, you get mad lagging and other maddeningly things, and you've got all the unpredictable difficulties. :D joke

[SDsc0rch]

...

The Su27 is no BVR fighter anymore?

...

And the Su27 is now a pure Dogfighter even with 60+ miles missiles?

It's ok if many of you show your knowledge here about that stuff. Nice reading.... really... but as long as the missiles are nearly useless for BVR fights the Su27 becomes a paper tiger and the dicsussion seems to be sensless! ...

:cry:

 

 

hey.. don't feel bad -- the mighty USAF has the same problem!

 

${1}

 

 

 

that's real world right there - he's being very frank in this talk (and yeah i know you guys have seen that before...)

 

earlier in the video he mentions a late model mig-21 with a great radar and israeli jammer that "gets him to the merge" -- ie our radars are rendered ineffective to the point that that lil guy can survive to dogfight range

 

 

 

look.. you guys are all moaning and complaining that the missiles "don't have range" and you have to get in close to make a shot

 

test it this way (and i've never done this - but i dare you!) --- set up an AI flying straight and level and non-reactive -- go head to head and see how far out your missiles will score a hit ---- note that range

 

if its "BVR," ED is doing its job!

 

 

 

seems like what this really is, is disbelief (nisunderstanding?) concerning how effective chaff/flares/jamming are

 

i've got a forum full of silly-villians here who are up in arms about countermeasures being "too" effective

 

and i've got real-deal airdales like the guy in this youtube (and pleeeenty of other sources i've come across - believe you me) making statements that are no where near what y'all are saying

 

who should ED believe??

 

personally, i like these effective countermeasures - they get me out of scrapes!

 

actually, i don't think the countermeasures go far enough

 

(in fact, i would really like it if we could have escort jammers like EA-6B and EF-111 in DCS)

 

don't take it the wrong way if someone says a lot of people need to calibrate their conception of air warfare

 

you should be happy! ED is working hard at bringing you a REALISTIC simulation of modern air combat

8)

[il_corleone]

Well I made this chart some days ago, I hope it can spread some light! (is no perfect)

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=155430

Edited December 15, 2015 by il_corleone

[Sweep]

Lets see if I can fix Scorch's video:

 

 

He had a start time set for 9 minutes 9 seconds into the video. Its a cool clip to watch from the beginning, though. :thumbup:

[Frostie]

Hyperbole much. 30nmi ET, Russians have longer ranged weapons, does this guy even DCS. :D

 

Regarding jammers they can probably jam one aircraft to the merge but not a second at the same time. Non entity in DCS.

[Sweep]

Hyperbole much. 30nmi ET, Russians have longer ranged weapons, does this guy even DCS. :D

 

Regarding jammers they can probably jam one aircraft to the merge but not a second at the same time. Non entity in DCS.

 

Well...he said he was using Jane's as a source... :megalol:

[OnlyforDCS]

^^^^

 

What a joke :D

 

Just the other day I was watching AMRAAMs be unable to intercept another aircraft from just 15nm away at 35000' ...

 

So if you want to complain about BVR, complain about BVR, not youre favorite airplane ;)

 

This is so true. It's a shame that there are so many vocal airquakers here on the forums who are trying to get the one-up on the 'other guy' that the devs. have turned a deaf ear to the few people who value simulation over game balance.

[karambiatos]

This is so true. It's a shame that there are so many vocal airquakers here on the forums who are trying to get the one-up on the 'other guy' that the devs. have turned a deaf ear to the few people who value simulation over game balance.

I don't think anyone wants one missile to be a weapon of the gods, and the other a tooth pick.

[NineLine]

This is so true. It's a shame that there are so many vocal airquakers here on the forums who are trying to get the one-up on the 'other guy' that the devs. have turned a deaf ear to the few people who value simulation over game balance.

 

No offence to anyone here, but I highly doubt ED will succeed or fail based on the info that comes from threads like these. If you have good info on missiles, etc that you dont think ED has, PM Chizh with it. ED makes design decisions based on available information, its not a squeakiest wheel gets the grease scenario...

[OnlyforDCS]

No offence to anyone here, but I highly doubt ED will succeed or fail based on the info that comes from threads like these. If you have good info on missiles, etc that you dont think ED has, PM Chizh with it. ED makes design decisions based on available information, its not a squeakiest wheel gets the grease scenario...

 

That is not what I meant Sith, nor was I talking about ED's success of implementing changes of any kind. All Im saying is the team from Eagle Dynamics does not live in a vacuum however much we would like them to be, they have considerations towards their customers (most of whom are not present on these forums) many of whom have preferences for one plane over another, and they most definitely don't want to start a war of words on these here forums which is always on the brink, even with BVR being what it is today in DCS.

 

karambiatos said it best, without using the dreaded "b" word. (Although I would hardly call the difference that drastic)

Edited December 16, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[OnlyforDCS]

I don't think anyone wants one missile to be a weapon of the gods, and the other a tooth pick.

 

No, but Ive seen a lot of comments where people are happy with BVR being what it is, which is to say pretty lousy on both sides of the spectrum. I also bet a lot of people who never even come to the forums and only occasionally take to the skies in DCS don't appreciate being shot out of the blue sky by something they can't even see or more importantly understand. (I know because I used to be the same way)

 

When I first got into serious simming, I used to loathe Air to Air combat, because I couldn't wrap my head around it. Things like 'RCS', 'notching', 'beaming', 'active', 'semi-active', 'ground-clutter' etc. etc. were a mystery to me. AI shooting me out of the sky before I could even asses the situation was damn infuriating, and hardly fun, at least in my mind. It took a lot of effort and learning on my part before I could truly appreciate BVR combat.

Edited December 16, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[Ironhand]

...

test it this way (and i've never done this - but i dare you!) --- set up an AI flying straight and level and non-reactive -- go head to head and see how far out your missiles will score a hit ---- note that range

 

if its "BVR," ED is doing its job!....

I did awhile back with -27ERs. :) The range is actually a bit beyond the max intercept range on the HUD.