Chaff and R27(E)R

[OnlyforDCS]

I did awhile back with -27ERs. :) The range is actually a bit beyond the max intercept range on the HUD.

 

How long ago was this Ironhand, have you had a chance to test it recently?

[Ironhand]

How long ago was this Ironhand, have you had a chance to test it recently?

It feels like it was a month or two ago but, knowing my sense of time, it was most probably about 4 months ago.

 

I was actually curious about the -27s range against a non-maneuvering target. I don't remember all the particulars except that it was something on the order of 60-80 km. Maybe a bit more. The target was a transport. Head to head. I picked him up at around 130 km and launched as soon as I had authorization. Seeing how much smash the missile had remained when it hit, I re-flew the mission and launched a bit earlier with "override". That one hit, too.

 

I haven't tried recently, since it was just something I was curious about at the time. Wasn't testing anything in particular.

[GGTharos]

The R-27 out-ranges is useful powered flight time IIRC.

 

I have documents clearly showing the AIM-7 having an Raero of ~100km in a particular launch profile where I would expect the R-27ER to reach further ... except that it runs out of power.

[OnlyforDCS]

It feels like it was a month or two ago but, knowing my sense of time, it was most probably about 4 months ago.

 

I was actually curious about the -27s range against a non-maneuvering target. I don't remember all the particulars except that it was something on the order of 60-80 km. Maybe a bit more. The target was a transport. Head to head. I picked him up at around 130 km and launched as soon as I had authorization. Seeing how much smash the missile had remained when it hit, I re-flew the mission and launched a bit earlier with "override". That one hit, too.

 

I haven't tried recently, since it was just something I was curious about at the time. Wasn't testing anything in particular.

 

Thats very impressive actually. Do you remember your altitude (and the altitude of the transport) by any chance?

[AussieGhost789]

R-27ER's range is very impressive when fired from high altitude against a non-maneuvering target. But once you introduce maneuvering, and fire from lower altitudes, the range is not quite as impressive. I guess this ties back to what was said in a q&a a little while back. If I recall correctly, Matt said that they were more or less happy with missile performance above 40,000 feet, but less so below that, and that it isn't an easy fix because they don't want to end up with exaggerated missile performance above 40k feet.

 

Sorry, I know this isn't quite on the topic of chaff, but we started talking about ranges and whatnot.

[Ironhand]

Thats very impressive actually. Do you remember your altitude (and the altitude of the transport) by any chance?

Knowing me, I probably placed both aircraft at 10K meters but I don't actually remember.

 

As AussieGhost789 suggests, missile performance against what is, essentially, a comatose drone will always be more impressive than performance against an actively evading target.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Ironhand

[Drona]

Thats very impressive actually. Do you remember your altitude (and the altitude of the transport) by any chance?

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2377829&postcount=392

 

this was a while back but still probably representative today

[SDsc0rch]

R-27ER's range is very impressive when fired from high altitude against a non-maneuvering target. But once you introduce maneuvering, and fire from lower altitudes, the range is not quite as impressive. I guess this ties back to what was said in a q&a a little while back. If I recall correctly, Matt said that they were more or less happy with missile performance above 40,000 feet, but less so below that, and that it isn't an easy fix because they don't want to end up with exaggerated missile performance above 40k feet.

 

Sorry, I know this isn't quite on the topic of chaff, but we started talking about ranges and whatnot.

 

 

this is exactly the point i'm making - high-alt high-speed non-maneuvering performance may just be fine

 

if the raw missiles CAN fly the ranges you see published on mfr sales brochures, in Janes, or on wikipedia (ie.. publically available sources) ---- then again, i'm saying ED is doing its job

 

 

 

now, there is the kinematics (thrust, aerodynamics, synthetic natural environment..) - there is the guidance logics - and there is the radar modeling - and there is CM and CCM effectiveness (to include target maneuver) ---- all of those go in to missile "performance" (Pk)

 

(can anyone think of any other factors? edit: intercept geometry also has an effect)

 

i'm not saying "we're there" when it comes to any of those - in fact i'm saying we would like to see improvements on all of those areas

 

but all of these factors have an effect on Pk ---- people see "less than desired" success and they conflate all these issues in to one big complaint and dump it at EDs feet and scream at them to "FIX IT!"

 

 

 

but i'm also saying.. i think a lot of people might need to adjust their conception of how air combat is prosecuted - and the capabilities and limitations of the equipment involved

 

DCS is *not* ultra-realistic when it comes to these systems ----- it is "realistic" - its on the right path - but its not ULTRA realistic (not yet)

 

 

 

you would do well to keep in mind that in all of those publically available sources, ONLY the best ranges are presented - they don't "brag" that their missile can chase down a high speed tail-aspect bandit at two miles down on the deck ------- what they do publish is the supersonic beak-to-beak high-altitude engagement

 

why? BECAUSE BIG NUMBERS SELL!

 

and, that's the *maximum* capability that the other side needs to respect

Edited December 16, 2015 by SDsc0rch

[Frostie]

Seriously who knows what works and what doesn't in the real world, nobody here that's for sure. All the breast beating in the world about who is right and who is wrong in respect to how ECM, CM etc. work is meaningless.

When launched upon in good parameters from below you decide to set a position and release chaff to the factor of 'win' this defeats the missile 100% then if the real world is so predictable I give up.

 

What matters is that DCS is a simulation of modern air combat with a large portion now and hopefully even more so in the future based on A2A. And to simulate BVR you need a good platform to perform the procedures outlined for such tactics. Currently DCS doesn't have this because of the lack of depth with regards to how these countermeasures work combined with the poor performance missiles show when launched from advantageous positions. What we have now is a merge simulator where anything other than an active missile requires life on the line kamikaze flying bereft of any tactical input and procedure just pure arcade dice rolling. It's all good if all you need to do is close down to 7nmi let fly an active and run home because you've performed zero tactics and learned next to nothing other than how to air quake.

 

When all is said and done all anybody wants is to be successful at BVR for being good rather than lucky.

[Ragnarok]

the problem would be solved when to BVR mode SARH behaved like in DCS1.2, and in close mode like now in 1.5. Not the happiest but much better than now.

 

... and + DTL between two Su-27 in MP like in SP :)

[tovivan]

Just flew a single player mission against AI and have to say the R-27 have serious problems.

 

Won't even touch the ER's missing the flock of 4 F-5's when launched at good parameters, but will give the 2 weirdest examples.

 

2 ER's launched at a non-maneuvering A-10C from behind, range 500m-1km. First ER flew under the target and up into the stratosphere. 2nd flew directly at the A-10, then just before hitting it turned sharply, 90 degree to the left and headed towards ground with full speed. No deployment of chaff seen, besides the fact that it probably shouldn't even affect the missle from that range and from being DIRECTLY behind it.

 

Wasted cannon ammo on A-10, didn't do much, so had to ram him to bring him down (I survived).

 

Later, diving at Mach from 8k onto an F-18 going about 400km, from my left to my right, at about 2km alt. I'm locking with both Radar and IRST, he's not reacting, just flying, no flares seen. At about 10km range I fire my last ET.

 

Except ET phoned home.

 

The missile didn't even acquire lock, INSTEAD it continued merrily on it's way, directly straight ahead, not even caring about nice, juicy Bug calling it's name.

 

Thus two missile that didn't even lock off the rail.

 

Since I was completely out of any weapons, I again resorted to a ramming attack. And again survived with fully functioning plane, lol.

 

I've honestly started resorting to RAMMING ATTACKS to bring down enemy planes because the missiles are turning out so useless.

 

Gotta start flying the choppers again cause these fighters are bringing me to tears.

[Ultra]

Just flew a single player mission against AI and have to say the R-27 have serious problems.......

 

You should post tracks or videos!

[IASGATG]

Seriously who knows what works and what doesn't in the real world,.

 

*Quietly puts up his hand*

 

Back on topic, I'd just like to raise what chaff does to national weather radars.

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by IASGATG

[holimoli]

Just flew a single player mission against AI and have to say the R-27 have serious problems.

Try it in multiplayer. ;)

I think the even bigger issue atm is that the MP netcode makes it even harder for the missiles to hit anything. Ppl are lagging and stuttering all the time. This + the current chaff/ER situation make every fight to a close combat 73 or guns fight.

[Drona]

it's a pretty sad situation for the RU birds at the moment.

[tovivan]

Try it in multiplayer. ;)

 

Not playing MP anymore, not even aerobatics/free flight, exactly because of horrible netcode and stutering.

 

Hoped it would get fixed with 1.5, but it didn't. I think the netcode actually got worse with updates in early summer - it was then that it almost became impossible to fly in formation on public servers. Anyone still remember the horrible, warping-into-space, lags on the VA server? It wasn't that bad before May or June.

 

I fly with a friend and it's simply not worth it, we can't even fly close together because of the stuttering and lags because we either crash or lose each other. A few weeks ago there was a lag on one of the servers we tried in our last attempt and, while we were standing on the taxiway, we warped and both ended up dead. While standing still. Gave up on public servers and now only fly on the server I host.

 

Even with my 50 kbs upload we get no stuttering or lags.

 

 

Back on topic, I'd just like to raise what chaff does to national weather radars.

 

Um. *raises hand* that was actually on German TV a few years back.

 

The German government Weather Service or Environment Agency or however it's called complained bitterly about the spraying of "chemtrails", pulverized metals, basically chaff in high atmosphere, that made their weather radars blind. That was in 2009 or so I think.

 

You should post tracks or videos!

 

Can't get the bloody Tacview to work, so deleted it and with only about 20gb of free space on my game partitions can't really record anymore. :( Really need to get another HDD, but bike - my only mode of transport - takes priority for the little spendings I can afford.

 

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Talking about stuttering: anyone experiencing stuttering when using radar in FC3 planes? I've tested only 27 and 29 for now and it's pretty bad. FPS is high, but stuttering horrible.

 

Wondering if it's something wrong with the game itself or just my mission.

Edited December 17, 2015 by tovivan

[*Rage*]

seems like what this really is, is disbelief (nisunderstanding?) concerning how effective chaff/flares/jamming are

 

i've got a forum full of silly-villians here who are up in arms about countermeasures being "too" effective

 

See here for an explanation why you're completely off the ball.

 

It's a couple things adding up. SARH missiles are currently having a plethora of problems tracking the target. The biggest issue at the moment is that the DnD-Style "Roll to check chaff resiliency" mechanic current makes it possible to evade an R-27R/ER at any range just by spamming chaff.

 

This is unrealistic for a couple reasons:

 

1) Fighter radars and missiles are designed with a certain measure of chaff-resistance, mainly by building a track of the target and ignoring deceleration rates that are impossible for a plane to perform (chaff tends to stop dead in the air within a second or two). In the specific case of the R-27, the missile's mid-course guidance comes via m-link (one-way datalink) from the parent aircraft. The Su-27 generates the updates for this link based on its track of the bandit.

 

2) Since chaff stops moving so quickly, at close ranges and/or flanking aspects, there will quickly become enough angular separation between the parent aircraft that the chaff is either no longer illumated, or moves out of the missile's FoV. This, again, is also somewhere that chaff-rejection programming should tell the missile to ignore the chaff, because a fighter can't go from 1200 km/hr to 10 km/hr in under three seconds without turning into a grease stain.

 

3) the Su-27 is equipped with an EOS targeting system to supplement the radar. in STT mode, the EOS can also track the target based on IR signature. Even a rudimentary tracking program should be able to recognize the difference between a fighter with both radar and IR signature, and a cold bundle of chaff (or the other way around, in the event of flare launch). This would allow the Su-27 radar to be kept on target based on IR sensor returns, further improving chaff-resistance at close range.

 

 

If DCS was correctly simulating these effects, then a defending pilot would be required to not only spam chaff, but to maneuver himself into a relative position that allows him to negate the chaff-resistant features of his opponent's aircraft (IE: make high-G turns to disrupt track building, chose a hard hot or cold aspect to place his aircraft in-line with his chaff bundle, etc). The attacking pilot would then need to maneuver his own bird to try and regain a favourable position/radar picture.

 

This problem is the kissing-cousin of another missile tracking problem that has been plaguing the R-27 for ages, and that is ground-clutter susceptibility. At one point, a few patches ago, it was so bad that I had an AI Su-25 "dodge" my missile simply by "notching" against the sky. No chaff, no maneuvers, just turned 90 degrees and kept flying straight. Unloaded my entire payload, and finally killed him with guns.

 

(E)R chaff susceptibility has been an issue for years now. ED have acknowledged it and have gone some way to improving it. What me and others are doing is testing it with every patch and pointing out issues with its modelling. There are posts and tracks/tacviews in this thread explicitly showing this aberrant behaviour.

 

 

personally, i like these effective countermeasures - they get me out of scrapes!

 

actually, i don't think the countermeasures go far enough

 

Of course you do! If you fly the F15 and you know what youre doing you can spoof ANY SARH/IR missile with impunity just by spamming chaff/flares. No need for established BVR tactics. I doubt you have any serious time in the Su27 or you would understand what this thread (and others like it) are about. Again see Shurugals post for the TLDR.

 

Scorch, youre a nice guy. Youve helped me out before when I needed some advice about simming displays. But you need to understand that dismissing peoples legitimate complaints without understanding why isnt cool. In the nicest possible way it is a form of derailing/OTing a focused topic. And there are much worse offenders out there!

 

Myself, and others will keep testing and pointing out flaws and asking for fixes in SARH/IR missile modelling till we feel it is as realistic as it should be. I have no problem with missiles having a pK of zero in almost all sorties. But I want my adversary and I to go through the motions of established BVR tactics and maneauvers along the way.

 

Edit: if you follow the Mirage2000 subforum you can see the Mirage developers are also dissapointed with the 530D performance vs chaff.

Edited December 17, 2015 by ///Rage

[holimoli]

Not playing MP anymore, not even aerobatics/free flight, exactly because of horrible netcode and stutering.

 

Hoped it would get fixed with 1.5, but it didn't. I think the netcode actually got worse with updates in early summer - it was then that it almost became impossible to fly in formation on public servers. Anyone still remember the horrible, warping-into-space, lags on the VA server? It wasn't that bad before May or June.

 

 

AFAIK ED said 2.0 will have a new netcode!?!?..I don't think they changed anything. It's just the new graphic engine requires more memory etc. bla bla and therefor ppl get stutters/freezes. :(

 

Can't remember my last kill with an ER. Out of my last month flying I did more kills with guns than with ERs. :D...At least you get some merge/gun skills from it :)

[Ultra]

Can't get the bloody Tacview to work, so deleted it and with only about 20gb of free space on my game partitions can't really record anymore. :(

 

I feel your pain, I can't get my TacView to work with 1.5 or 2.0 either. :(

 

AFAIK ED said 2.0 will have a new netcode!?!?..I don't think they changed anything. It's just the new graphic engine requires more memory etc. bla bla and therefor ppl get stutters/freezes. :(

 

As far as I know, the new netcode and dedicated server are WIP and not really implemented yet.

[Ragnarok]

Lucky for me that the coming months I'm crazy busy, and happiness for me is that developers do not read our posts, otherwise I would have spent my life on the forum.

 

Guys, my advice is not to try to explain the logic in hopes the "tallest" hear. They do not listen much even those who have a reputation in the aviation world, let alone us. But to educate each other is ok.

 

@Rage you know what to test, so if there are changes, you will inform me! :thumbup:

 

tnx guys. you know if one of your missing something, It also missing and thousands of others who do not write.

[tovivan]

...At least you get some merge/gun skills from it :)

 

Yup, definitely getting merge skills. Literally :D

 

Because I RAM the enemies, lol!

 

I DID get an ER kill a few weeks back on some 1.5 server, can't remember which. Maybe DCS Israel. There were two F-15s going head-to-head with me.

 

I was at 10 or 11km alt, going supersonic at them. They were at 5 or 6km, in formation. Launched an ER early, killed one guy, even though he tried to evade. The other guy evaded, but I had too much speed and dove past him into a valley. Because of the new AB aerodynamics I couldn't slow down fast enough to turn towards him. He got on my ass in valley and killed me.

 

Can't remember if they launched at me or not or why they didn't shoot me down at head-on.

Edited December 17, 2015 by tovivan

[AussieGhost789]

*Quietly puts up his hand*

 

Back on topic, I'd just like to raise what chaff does to national weather radars.

 

 

That happened to my local weather radar a few months back. Was very interesting to watch over the hours that it hung in the air. Wish I did a time lapse now.

Edited December 17, 2015 by AussieGhost789

[BlueRaven]

Because I RAM the enemies, lol!

 

 

 

LOL, you should switch to the Me-109 or the FW-190 and take a "Sonderkommando Elba" style of flying then... I see you talented in this!

 

 

 

EDIT: there was an emoticon here to make the joke evident... hope it is clear!

[IASGATG]

Sorry, just to clarify, tests have been done where you've shot an SARH at a head to head co-alt or look up target which is non-maneuvering but deploying chaff and the missile is regularly defeated? Or if defeated how often?

[tovivan]

LOL, you should switch to the Me-109 or the FW-190 and take a "Sonderkommando Elba" style of flying then... I see you talented in this!

 

 

 

EDIT: there was an emoticon here to make the joke evident... hope it is clear!

 

Yep, it is, don't worry! ;-)

 

Don't have either of those though. Don't really fancy prop planes in this game, when I want piston action I startup Cliffs of Dover. :D