DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[Mmmslash]

This is true.

 

I greatly appreciate this candor.

 

Despite my vocal criticisms here and elsewhere, the Viggen remains the module on the horizon I am most excited for. I think it's a great choice and that LNS are the right folks for it.

 

I cannot wait for the day when I check this thread and there is cause for excitement.

 

(Not to suggest this thread has not been great. So many fantastic contributors who have really grown my knowledge on the platform and helped fuel my excitement for the module. Kudos to the community.)

[Hook47]

This is true.

 

The way I see it Cobra- even the most vocally impatient among us will forget ALL above the speculation thread, and probably this one too once that work of art goes live :)

 

Take your time, LNS! It will be worth every second!

[Hook47]

Only one module i think was a complete letdown on the early release, and this was the Hawk, dull simple and a complete disappointment, and this was something i really wish i wouldnt have bought. Other modules one is quite humble in the beginning realizing that it is early axcess. There is a charm in being given early axcess, i remember when warthog A-10c was beta,the finished product of the module will go into historybooks of flysimulation. I will say that even tough Mig-21bis is not my cup of tea, it will also be in historybook, just a superb module.

 

In the case of viggen, my love for the AC will never make me look ar LN in a bad way ever, because they are the one who gave us the Viggen in high fidelity. I just hope we get appropriate Map to follow, but then we all know how hard it is to make maps, just look at nevadamap...

 

I respect VEAO and they have worked very hard to get the Hawk up to the level they always intended it to be. I was on the closed testing team for the Hawk and I was really impressed with their professionalism. Sure the Hawk had some bumps, but it was their first release and such bumps are understandable.

 

The MiG 21 was above and beyond what anyone expected for a third party, in my opinion. To this day the fidelity of the aircraft, particularly in the visual department is unmatched. That isn't to say the products from other 3rd parties, even ED aren't good, they are wonderful, but the MiG 21 is just a work of art.

 

Knowing all this has me so unbelievably stoked for the Viggen I am beside myself. The MiG is my favorite module, not so much because it's the MiG 21 (although it's an awesome plane) but because of the actual product. It's funny that LNS went forward with an aircraft that only a year ago I barely knew existed, and now a year later I can't stop searching for information about this plane.

 

All in all I agree, we have had awesome aircraft releases from the active 3rd parties with a few hiccups here and there, but personally I think the Viggen is going to take 3rd party releases to a whole new level. Worth every second of the wait.

[Tirak]

The MiG 21 was above and beyond what anyone expected for a third party, in my opinion.

 

I hate this view with a passion. It should not be above and beyond, it should be considered the gold standard. Others should emulate the level of thoroughness, not put it on a pedestal and say "Oh, it's impossible to hope for that sort of quality."

[Hook47]

I hate this view with a passion. It should not be above and beyond, it should be considered the gold standard. Others should emulate the level of thoroughness, not put it on a pedestal and say "Oh, it's impossible to hope for that sort of quality."

 

I don't think your really understanding what I said... I said the MiG 21 was above my expectation as to what level of fidelity a 3rd party release could achieve, particularly for the first time... No one is saying that other devs shouldn't strive for that, or that it is impossible to hope for that in any way, I literally was implying the MiG 21 was the Gold Standard, but certainly not impossible for other 3rd parties

 

But this topic isn't about the MiG, it's about the Viggen, so we are digressing a bit... Back to the Viggen!

Edited September 26, 2016 by Hook47

[2-niner]

Does anyone know about the history of the RWR in the Viggen? I'm mainly interested in why Sweden didn't buy an RWR from the US since it seems like the AN/ALR-46 was available at the time (although I could be wrong about that) and that is far more capable than the RWR the Viggen ended up with.

 

So how come they decide to develop their own (inferior) RWR when they could have bought something better off the shelf, so to speak?

 

I'm probably being super ignorant here, there was probably a good reason for this, but hey that's why I'm asking :)

[foxmaner]

Does anyone know about the history of the RWR in the Viggen? I'm mainly interested in why Sweden didn't buy an RWR from the US since it seems like the AN/ALR-46 was available at the time (although I could be wrong about that) and that is far more capable than the RWR the Viggen ended up with.

 

So how come they decide to develop their own (inferior) RWR when they could have bought something better off the shelf, so to speak?

 

I'm probably being super ignorant here, there was probably a good reason for this, but hey that's why I'm asking :)

I am not realy sure. But I think it could have something to do with sweden being neutral.

 

Skickat från min SM-A310F via Tapatalk

[Fredo_69]

NO Sweden is not "neutral", has not been so since the end of WW2.

Sweden is non-aligned (officially at least) with the intention to be able to claim neutrality in case of conflict. This is a very important distinction often overseen by many "neutrality lovers" in Sweden...

[Skjold]

Does anyone know about the history of the RWR in the Viggen? I'm mainly interested in why Sweden didn't buy an RWR from the US since it seems like the AN/ALR-46 was available at the time (although I could be wrong about that) and that is far more capable than the RWR the Viggen ended up with.

 

So how come they decide to develop their own (inferior) RWR when they could have bought something better off the shelf, so to speak?

 

I'm probably being super ignorant here, there was probably a good reason for this, but hey that's why I'm asking :)

 

Just a guess:

 

Sweden tried as much as possible to be independent in terms of aviation industry, of course the engine on the Viggen for example is a license produced american one with modifications, but mostly everything else was made here with the notable exception of AIM-4/AIM-9 and (later) AGM-65 Maverick.

 

The radar was made by Ericsson and the avionics computer "Central Calculator 37" was a native design as well as the RWR and HUD. All other weaponry was swedish as well Rb 04, Rb 05, 135 mm rockets, 120 kg bombs. Even the sight designed for use of the Mavericks on the Viggen was a swedish design.

 

Basicly, if you want a good aviation industry you need to start producing stuff yourself.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Skjold

[ESAc_matador]

Yep.

[OziRekt]

Is there much lag on the HUD of the Viggen, like in the initial F-14 models? Or is smoother like today?

[microvax]

 

It doesnt seem to have a that low refresh rate like the f14.

 

But as you see, symbology is very non standard ! :D

[Skjold]

Is there much lag on the HUD of the Viggen, like in the initial F-14 models? Or is smoother like today?

 

See microwax video.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Skjold

[2-niner]

Just a guess:

 

Sweden tried as much as possible to be independent in terms of aviation industry, of course the engine on the Viggen for example is a license produced american one with modifications, but mostly everything else was made here with the notable exception of AIM-4/AIM-9 and (later) AGM-65 Maverick.

 

The radar was made by Ericsson and the avionics computer "Central Calculator 37" was a native design as well as the RWR and HUD. All other weaponry was swedish as well Rb 04, Rb 05, 135 mm rockets, 120 kg bombs. Even the sight designed for use of the Mavericks on the Viggen was a swedish design.

 

Basicly, if you want a good aviation industry you need to start producing stuff yourself.

 

You're probably right. It just seems silly to spend what must have been a lot of money on developing your own RWR when you could have just bought something which is both far better and probably far cheaper.

 

But it's of course possible that they saw it as an investment in the future of Swedish flight/weapons industry like you say.

 

If that is true then it makes you wonder what other components could have been bought instead of developed at home, and in what way that would have made the aircraft different. I mean, I'm happy that so much of it was developed in Sweden because it makes it so much more unique, but it's also interesting to just wonder what if this or that american component would have been used instead...

[microvax]

Hmm, I mean the AJ37 as one of its main purposes had the "sink an possible invasion fleet" task.

 

If you combine the Radar the aj37 has onboard with a directional RWR which may even be optimised for detection of radar signatures used by russian ship borne radars, you have a pretty damn good detection system. Against ships, which are the main threat here.

 

 

Iirc prototypes had also hydraulic canard flap actuators which would have made an inflight usage possible. But in the end they are linked mechanically to the gear deployment procedure somehow. Since it was not required in a more fancy way for its task.

Main concerns were keep it simple, so its possible to maintenance things in the field and dont overengineer it, leading to big cost.

 

Iirc they expected to loose the enfire F1 fleet within a few weeks. So a potentially more complex, spare part dependant on third countries RWR which didnt improve the survivability against ships much would not have made much sense I guess.

 

Also swedish fighters had datalink pretty early on which kinda is better then a RWR.

 

I mean I dunno if any of that was an argument for or against it, but swedish aircraft Industry at that time really doesnt look like they were taking bad decisions. :D

 

 

Only thing I really do not get, why they opted for the subsonic AGM65 and not the RB05T.

[Skjold]

You're probably right. It just seems silly to spend what must have been a lot of money on developing your own RWR when you could have just bought something which is both far better and probably far cheaper.

 

But it's of course possible that they saw it as an investment in the future of Swedish flight/weapons industry like you say.

 

If that is true then it makes you wonder what other components could have been bought instead of developed at home, and in what way that would have made the aircraft different. I mean, I'm happy that so much of it was developed in Sweden because it makes it so much more unique, but it's also interesting to just wonder what if this or that american component would have been used instead...

 

No it is not silly. If you buy everything from abroad you will never develop your own aviation industry.

 

We could have bought ready made planes from the era, but we didn't. The Viggen was a very expensive and controversial project for its time, so was the Gripen. In the end however, it was worth it due to amongst others:

 

• Further developments into the military aviation industry and learn how to design advanced components of the 60s such as HUD, RWR, Avionics Computer etc.
  
• Developing a plane that fit our specific strategic need of anti-ship missile capable attack aircraft with relatively long range and good low level performance. (Remember, the West barely had ASM in the mid 60s)
  
• Spending the money on swedish companies, serving as kinda a direct injection of money into the economy which creates jobs.
  
• Potential to gain export customers such as with the Draken.
  
• Serve as a means of increasing overall technical engineering expertise in the country.
  

 

Better question is, why would we buy something cheaper and off the shelf? :thumbup:

[2-niner]

Hmm, I mean the AJ37 as one of its main purposes had the "sink an possible invasion fleet" task.

 

If you combine the Radar the aj37 has onboard with a directional RWR which may even be optimised for detection of radar signatures used by russian ship borne radars, you have a pretty damn good detection system. Against ships, which are the main threat here.

 

 

Iirc prototypes had also hydraulic canard flap actuators which would have made an inflight usage possible. But in the end they are linked mechanically to the gear deployment procedure somehow. Since it was not required in a more fancy way for its task.

Main concerns were keep it simple, so its possible to maintenance things in the field and dont overengineer it, leading to big cost.

 

Iirc they expected to loose the enfire F1 fleet within a few weeks. So a potentially more complex, spare part dependant on third countries RWR which didnt improve the survivability against ships much would not have made much sense I guess.

 

Also swedish fighters had datalink pretty early on which kinda is better then a RWR.

 

I mean I dunno if any of that was an argument for or against it, but swedish aircraft Industry at that time really doesnt look like they were taking bad decisions. :D

 

 

Only thing I really do not get, why they opted for the subsonic AGM65 and not the RB05T.

 

Yeah I see what you're saying that according to the Swedish plan about how things were supposed to unfold the Viggen didn't really need to have a very fancy RWR, or hardly any RWR at all. So I understand that I respect that - I really do. There's just a part of me that wonders if that really is the best strategy... I'm sort of playing devils advocate here now since I actually think Swedens defense strategy during the cold war was really sound, but one could surely argue that in war things doesn't usually go to plan, and so if you have equipment made for a specific plan and that plan goes out the window, what do you do?

 

It's of course a risk that Sweden decided to take and I think it was the right choice. But STILL :) it just seems so obvious to buy the cheaper/better stuff rather than the more expensive/worse stuff. But yeah it probably was in order to invest in Swedish industry, which makes sense in a way.

[2-niner]

No it is not silly. If you buy everything from abroad you will never develop your own aviation industry.

 

We could have bought ready made planes from the era, but we didn't. The Viggen was a very expensive and controversial project for its time, so was the Gripen. In the end however, it was worth it due to amongst others:

 

• Further developments into the military aviation industry and learn how to design advanced components of the 60s such as HUD, RWR, Avionics Computer etc.
  
• Developing a plane that fit our specific strategic need of anti-ship missile capable attack aircraft with relatively long range and good low level performance. (Remember, the West barely had ASM in the mid 60s)
  
• Spending the money on swedish companies, serving as kinda a direct injection of money into the economy which creates jobs.
  
• Potential to gain export customers such as with the Draken.
  
• Serve as a means of increasing overall technical engineering expertise in the country.
  

 

Better question is, why would we buy something cheaper and off the shelf? :thumbup:

 

You're probably right. It's just that the knee-jerk reaction is of course to go with the option that is both cheaper and better. But I'm totally on-board with the argument that it was a sort of long term investment in Swedish industry.

[mattebubben]

And also are you sure that a AN/ALR-46 would be superior to the system used by the Viggen in all ways that was important?

 

But more importantly what was developed first? the Viggen system or the AN/ALR-46.

The Viggen was well into development in the mid-late 60s when the US developed and started to equip RWR systems to their fighters.

 

Im having trouble finding an exact date for the AN/ALR-46 but the best i can find puts development and service entry in the early 70s.

and if that is the case the AJ 37 was already in service at that point and the RWR system it used was already developed and in full production / service.

 

So at that point it would be much more expensive and much more complicated to change the RWR system (as it would require a Redesign of the cockpit as well as possible changed to the Computer system of the aircraft etc as it might not have been compatible).

 

And then we get to the point if the US would even be willing to sell a AN/ALR-46 to Sweden in the early 70s when it was brand new.

 

So even if the AN/ALR-46 was superior (in atleast some ways) at the point when it entered service and was open for export to Sweden its unlikely that they thought the extra cost needed to acquire the RWR system and then to modify the Viggen enough to were it would be compatible was worth whatever advantage it had.

 

The RWR system on the Viggen (AJ/SF/SH) was one of the early RWR systems so sure while it might seem outdated from our eyes it was top of the line when it was developed,

and at that time there were not that many other systems around to base their work on (atleast not that they were allowed full access to) so they developed a new system that was as good as

they could make it and made it according to the needs of the Swedish airforce and the AJ 37.

Edited September 28, 2016 by mattebubben

[renhanxue]

It would also have looked rather bad in the eyes of the general public if Palme's government - the Palme who, in 1972, compared the bombings of Hanoi to Guernica and Treblinka - went off to buy American electronic warfare systems. Of course, under-the-table horse trading went on despite that, but still - anti-American sentiments were very strong in the late 1960's and early 1970's.

[2-niner]

And also are you sure that a AN/ALR-46 would be superior to the system used by the Viggen in all ways that was important?

 

But more importantly what was developed first? the Viggen system or the AN/ALR-46.

The Viggen was well into development in the mid-late 60s when the US developed and started to equip RWR systems to their fighters.

 

Im having trouble finding an exact date for the AN/ALR-46 but the best i can find puts development and service entry in the early 70s.

and if that is the case the AJ 37 was already in service at that point and the RWR system it used was already developed and in full production / service.

 

And at that point it would be much more expensive and much more complicated to change the RWR system (as it would require a Redesign of the cockpit as well as possible changed to the Computer system of the aircraft etc as it might not have been compatible).

 

And then we get to the point if the US would even be willing to sell a AN/ALR-46 to Sweden in the early 70s when it was brand new.

 

So even if the AN/ALR-46 was superior (in atleast some ways) at the point when it entered service and was open for export to Sweden its unlikely that they thought the extra cost needed to acquire the RWR system and then to modify the Viggen enough to were it would be compatible was worth whatever advantage it had.

 

The RWR system on the Viggen (AJ/SF/SH) was one of the early RWR systems so sure while it might seem outdated from our eyes it was top of the line when it was developed,

and at that time there were not that many other systems around to base their work on (atleast not that they were allowed full access to) so they developed a new system that was as good as

they could make it and made it according to the needs of the Swedish airforce and the AJ 37.

 

I had a feeling you would show up and set us all (mostly me) straight since you seem to be an everlasting source of factual information on these forums, thanks a lot! :)

 

Also a good point about the americans probably not wanting to export brand new equipment, especially not to a non-NATO country. I hadn't thought of that.

[2-niner]

It would also have looked rather bad in the eyes of the general public if Palme's government - the Palme who, in 1972, compared the bombings of Hanoi to Guernica and Treblinka - went off to buy American electronic warfare systems. Of course, under-the-table horse trading went on despite that, but still - anti-American sentiments were very strong in the late 1960's and early 1970's.

 

Good point! It's easy to forget that the political landscape was very different in many ways back then.

[Agremont]

This thread is probably the best in the entire forum. So much information! Thanks to all that contributes!

[mattebubben]

its a bit sad that since we only have 1 Viggen thread all talk of the viggen is here be it talk about release date information about the aircraft,videos / pictures or just unrelated chatter =P.

 

Thats the reason we have 300 pages at this point and it makes it alot harder to search through the pages for information.

 

Since i doubt many ppl would go through all 300 pages to look for any information instead of just asking in their own post.

 

And is why i long for a separate Viggen forum since it would make for an easier time with dedicated threads for Specs and questions etc.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

Indeed. I mean, if the aircraft has been confirned, even though no official DCS material has been show, it still should have it's own subforum for the sake of clarity.