AV-8B Harrier Thread

[uscstaylor]

I will definitely pre-order this when its ready!

[sirscorpion]

Regarding the NAVFLIR, it has a very interesting function: a hotspot detector. Any hotspot detected by the NAVFLIR will be displayed as a "v". It could be anything, sun's reflection on water, a bonfire, the hot engine of a vehicle, etc. That it cannot tell nor discriminate, it just tells you that something hot is down there.

 

Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8bmk4yZAJI&feature=youtu.be&t=2m20s

 

At first we thought that only the GR.7 and GR.9 (British Harriers) have it, but the AV-8B N/A does too.

 

Since the feature currently does not exist in DCS, we requested to ED the creation of such feature. They are keen to do it, on their schedule of course, but with one caveat. Due to the limited resources available only "live" vehicles (AI or human driven) will be detected by the NAVFLIR. Otherwise the FPS hit would be huge.

 

I'll inform you when the hotspot detector is delivered by ED and of course you will see it in action when we implement it.

 

I was just about to ask you that question what are those "V" but decided "Dont bother the Devs too much" haha.

 

Thank you that indeed sounds pretty amazing. For that I will get 2 AV8B copies honestly great Dev interaction. "on that note can you guys tell ED to find a way to gift products in an easy way? it got very hard now since you cant trade keys anymore"

 

 

I do hope though they throw in a "Few" random ones, something like a few over smoke stacks and such, not simulate it but to make it a bit more interesting. maybe a randomizer that gives you fake icons from time to time can also work without trashing the FPS. Also can it detect helos and Aircraft? b/c that will be just evil.

Edited March 31, 2017 by sirscorpion

[Vitormouraa]

Due to the limited resources available only "live" vehicles (AI or human driven) will be detected by the NAVFLIR. Otherwise the FPS hit would be huge.

 

I'll inform you when the hotspot detector is delivered by ED and of course you will see it in action when we implement it.

 

Awesome, so in theory, this feature will be very handy and useful I would say.

[Zeus67]

I was just about to ask you that question what are those "V" but decided "Dont bother the Devs too much" haha.

 

Thank you that indeed sounds pretty amazing. For that I will get 2 AV8B copies honestly great Dev interaction. "on that note can you guys tell ED to find a way to gift products in an easy way? it got very hard now since you cant trade keys anymore"

 

 

I do hope though they throw in a "Few" random ones, something like a few over smoke stacks and such, not simulate it but to make it a bit more interesting. maybe a randomizer that gives you fake icons from time to time can also work without trashing the FPS. Also can it detect helos and Aircraft? b/c that will be just evil.

 

It is a bit complex with terrain. I tried to have buildings included but I was told that it would bring down DCS if you try to run the hotspot detector in heavily built areas like Las Vegas.

 

Of course it can detect the hot engines of helos and aircrafts but the NAVFLIR is stabilized towards the horizon and always tries to look down, except on pitch up values above 7.5º, which is when it will look straight ahead. Otherwise it will try to look at the terrain.

 

You can select a hotspot as a target by either using TDC or aligning the aiming reticle with the spot and pressing the designate button. If you carry a TGP and it is in AG mode, it will immediately slave to the spot and will track it.

[Zeus67]

Awesome, so in theory, this feature will be very handy and useful I would say.

 

It is, that is why the real aircraft has it. Of course all DCS pilots will have it easier since only "live" vehicles will be detected, unlike the real one which shows every single hot spot. In that respect if you see a hot spot in DCS you will already know that it is a vehicle.

[sirscorpion]

It is a bit complex with terrain. I tried to have buildings included but I was told that it would bring down DCS if you try to run the hotspot detector in heavily built areas like Las Vegas.

 

True, also retro doing that to all buildings in all 4 or 5 maps that are in the pipe is possibly an insane amount of work.

 

The it seems the only way to do it with limited performance impact is have a few "fake" signatures that randomly pop around the real ones

 

 

Of course it can detect the hot engines of helos and aircrafts but the NAVFLIR is stabilized towards the horizon and always tries to look down, except on pitch up values above 7.5º, which is when it will look straight ahead. Otherwise it will try to look at the terrain.

 

You can select a hotspot as a target by either using TDC or aligning the aiming reticle with the spot and pressing the designate button. If you carry a TGP and it is in AG mode, it will immediately slave to the spot and will track it.

 

That is still significant, depending on its range. I dont know if you ever played Blue Flags mode online but hunting helos with fast jet is critical important and risky. And the ability to slave to a hotspot target sounds amazing, honestly with that my excitement for the NA went up 100%.

 

you guys still considering the APKWS?:music_whistling:

[Flagrum]

How does that hotspot detector work in reality? It compares the temperature with the surroundings and if the difference is greater x, then it is assumed a hot spot? How big is x? And can it be changed by the pilot?

 

What I am thinking about is, how does this feature behave in different ambient temperatures? I.e. summer in Nevada vs. winter in Caucasus?

 

Oh, and +1 for the idea to throw in some random hot spots!

[Zeus67]

How does that hotspot detector work in reality? It compares the temperature with the surroundings and if the difference is greater x, then it is assumed a hot spot?

Yes, that is how you find a hotspot. Watch the video and see that the "v"s only appear at points where you would expect large temperature differentials. Like the lake shores instead of the center of the lake.

 

 

In this image all the "V" are in dark or cold areas (the snow). So there is a temperature differential between the spot and its surroundings that the NAVFLIR detected.

 

Of course, in this case they are very likely reflections of solar light that the IR sensor caught.

 

How big is x? And can it be changed by the pilot?

I don't think so, although the pilot can modify the IR sensitivy but that is overall and not specific to hot spots. Hot spot detection is automatic and even the documentation acknowledges that a lot of "noise" can be generated.

 

What I am thinking about is, how does this feature behave in different ambient temperatures? I.e. summer in Nevada vs. winter in Caucasus?

In real life, yes. In DCS, no because it is limited to "live" vehicles. And those already have their own thermal signature that make them stand out over their surroundings.

 

Oh, and +1 for the idea to throw in some random hot spots!

The problem is that ED does not want to touch the terrain. It is complex and requires a lot of computational resources. Specially if you have lots of objects.

 

I had a similar problem with the radar ground ranging for the M-2000C. In the beginning, it used so many resources that in Nevada the FPS dropped to the point of becoming a slideshow. It was even affecting other radar equipped aircrafts, since all of them share the same basic radar code. It took quite some time to get it working without bringing DCS down.

 

So, ED does not believe that it is possible to do a terrain hot spot without bringing down the sim.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Zeus67

[sirscorpion]

 

I had a similar problem with the radar ground ranging for the M-2000C. In the beginning, it used so many resources that in Nevada the FPS dropped to the point of becoming a slideshow. It was even affecting other radar equipped aircrafts, since all of them share the same basic radar code. It took quite some time to get it working without bringing DCS down.

 

So, ED does not believe that it is possible to do a terrain hot spot without bringing down the sim.

 

Just a shot in the dark here, with ED ground radar coming soon TM and the current AJS radar, all provide some sort of terrain feed back, "i assume its passive" or maybe a super imposed 3D image that is calculated some how. Cant that be used to "fake" hotspots?

 

Anyway, As i said i think the simplest solution is to add "fake noise" basically just a HUD effect around real targets. maybe at some point down the line as even doing that will need some coding.

[QuiGon]

The Hotspot Detector sounds like a pretty cool feature... at first, but the more I think about it and its implementation to DCS, the more I get afraid that it will be unrealistically overpowered in DCS, because of the missing false returns. I hope there will be some kind of solution for this problem. It certainly should not have a 100% detection chance.

[Einherjer]

Overpowered? With one maverick and one jdam?

 

You can kill 2 ore 3 units per sortie ... the warthog driver will just smile about it

[Vitormouraa]

Overpowered? With one maverick and one jdam?

 

You can kill 2 ore 3 units per sortie ... the warthog driver will just smile about it

 

Can't agree more...

[QuiGon]

Overpowered? With one maverick and one jdam?

 

You can kill 2 ore 3 units per sortie ... the warthog driver will just smile about it

 

His smile will get even bigger when he gets the target data from the Harrier pilot :music_whistling:

[ebabil]

his smile may disappear when he is out of fuel above the sea while harrier pilot lands his plane on to a cargo ship

[addde]

Overpowered? With one maverick and one jdam?

 

You can kill 2 ore 3 units per sortie ... the warthog driver will just smile about it

 

Really?

 

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=26731

 

Im reading up to 12 gbu 12s or 12 cluster bombs.

So i think u can kill just a few more targets than 2-3.

 

Btw, Will it have NVGs?

Edited March 31, 2017 by addde

[QuiGon]

Btw, Will it have NVGs?

 

As it is the Night Attack variant I would guess it has NVGs.

[iLOVEwindmills]

Really?

 

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=26731

 

Im reading up to 12 gbu 12s or 12 cluster bombs.

So i think u can kill just a few more targets than 2-3.

 

Btw, Will it have NVGs?

 

Devs have also posted pics already of it carrying tripple racks with Rockeyes, Gbu12 and rocket pods.

[Einherjer]

Really?

 

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=26731

 

Im reading up to 12 gbu 12s or 12 cluster bombs.

So i think u can kill just a few more targets than 2-3.

 

Btw, Will it have NVGs?

 

 

 

Yes of course, but you mostly never see a AV-8B without two tanks an TGP , and if you need to start from the carrier the 12xgbu12 setting will show you the the usage of the life west

[DAZnBLAST]

Not sure about the hotspot cues. Especially if going to kill fps. I think mirroring the hud cue for A10C and having a TGP cue showing where it's pointing in relation to the aircraft are a must. Be surprised if AV8B does not have this functionality, given it's the same lightning TGP?

 

Also, which pylon is the Lightning carried on?

[jojo]

In real life, yes. In DCS, no because it is limited to "live" vehicles. And those already have their own thermal signature that make them stand out over their surroundings.

 

The problem is that ED does not want to touch the terrain. It is complex and requires a lot of computational resources. Specially if you have lots of objects.

 

I had a similar problem with the radar ground ranging for the M-2000C. In the beginning, it used so many resources that in Nevada the FPS dropped to the point of becoming a slideshow. It was even affecting other radar equipped aircrafts, since all of them share the same basic radar code. It took quite some time to get it working without bringing DCS down.

 

With the current DCS limitation, each V on the HUD will indicate a human, or vehicle = potential target, whereas in reality there are a lot of false contact due to terrain.

 

So I think that the idea when the random V was pushed forward is to display "fake" contact, randomly placed to populate the HUD without much terrain analysis (excepted maybe land or water). And it would do the trick without much computer ressource.

A bit like false V on Mirage 2000 VTB because of jamming.

[QuiGon]

With the current DCS limitation, each V on the HUD will indicate a human, or vehicle = potential target, whereas in reality there are a lot of false contact due to terrain.

 

So I think that the idea when the random V was pushed forward is to display "fake" contact, randomly placed to populate the HUD without much terrain analysis (excepted maybe land or water). And it would do the trick without much computer ressource.

A bit like false V on Mirage 2000 VTB because of jamming.

 

+1

 

This and a less than 100% chance to actually detect ground units

[VTJS17_Fire]

Great work, Zeus. It seems, that the Harrier is right on track. :)

 

Offtopic: Is the Mirage 2000C complete, now? Or there are any features missing?

[myHelljumper]

Offtopic: Is the Mirage 2000C complete, now? Or there are any features missing?

 

It will be less off topic in the M2000C sub-forum ;-)

 

No it is not, Zeus just said he will be reworking some aspects of the VTH and PCA.

The missing feature are minor for the most but they are still missing :).

[iLOVEwindmills]

If there is one of course, but so far I have not seen anything indicating TGP HUD indication.

 

The HUD image is from the NAVFLIR, which is on top of the aircraft's nose.

 

I wonder how likely it is that there isn't one, it's hard to imagine considering how incredibly useful it is in the A10C.

[Zeus67]

Okay Folks, let´s calm down a bit.

 

1. The hot spot detector will be implemented since the real aircraft has it. Our only concern is FPS stability.

2. The NAVFLIR is not a radar. It is not steerable although it is stabilized to keep it pointing down. It has a narrow FOV, no more than 20° overall since it can fill the HUD.

3. Yes, the hot spot detector is quite sensible and can see sunlight reflecting on something shiny and display it in the HUD/MPCD. But none of these false terrain returns last more than 4 seconds. A detected hot vehicle would remain in the display far longer than that. The manual advises the pilot about these false returns in order to make him understand that they are a normal feature and not an indication of sensor damage.

4. Overpowered? Who ever claimed that combat is a fair fight? The hot spot detector was developed by the British, since GR.7 was the first to have it, to help pilots with their Mk 1 eyeball detector. Americans would rather use radar, thus the Plus version. And the Plus version also has the NAVFLIR with its hot spot detector.

5. I cannot put in the HUD any TGP data if the documentation I have says that there is no TGP/HUD integration. That may have changed with later versions but I have nothing, not even symbology so unless someone gives me a document it cannot be done. I doubt they did that because the latest NATOPS I have says that the HUD is maxed out in symbology and that it has display problems on certain modes for some symbols/data.

6. Originally the TGP could be carried only in Station 5, innermost left pylon, but now it can be carried on Station 3 and Station 4 (centerline pylon) as well. Prowler told me that Station 3 was enabled in 2003 and Station 4 in 2005.

 

Now, like I said, we have to work within DCS limitations, which are plenty. DCS is a simulator after all and running it uses most of your computer resources. ED will develop the hot spot detector taking into consideration these limitations. Once we have it, we will talk about fake returns.

 

Oh. BTW, the manual says that the IR Maverick suffers from the same hot spot noise problem and that it is a huge factor in missile accuracy. The missile will lock to the hot spot only to have it disappear while in flight. The explanation is a lot more complex but that is the TL;DR version.