Flight model

[Abburo]

Very much appreciated this plane.

 

My impression about flight model is that it feels a bit like on rails. It is very responsive and extremely precise in moves. Flying inverted is perfectly stabile with 0 input on joystick for example.

 

I am no expert and I would like to check others opinions too !

[RogueRunner]

My guess, FBW for the win :)

[Fudge]

Try disabling some of the FBW systems. There is one next to the artificial horizon ball. It is a very stable aircraft with FBW.

[Brisse]

This is because it's FBW. Anyone who's been flying the F-16 in Falcon4.0 BMS will feel very familiar with this flight model. For those only used to DCS, it might feel strange at first becouse we haven't had any aircraft like this in DCS until now. The aircraft is flown by a computer. The stick inputs only tells the computer where to fly. Look at the control surfaces when manoeuvring and you will see they aren't doing what you would expect them to do if the stick was coupled directly to the control surfaces the old fashioned way.

[jojo]

Try disabling some of the FBW systems. There is one next to the artificial horizon ball. It is a very stable aircraft with FBW.

 

:mad:

 

THIS AIRCRAFT IS NOT TO BE FLOWN WITHOUT FBW !!!

[OnlyforDCS]

Aircraft is very smooth and responsive, it features a similar FBW system to the F16C. This is going to be one hell of a dogfighter...

[Abburo]

Thanks for the hints. So, if this is indeed close to reality as it gets then I take a bow to the real project engineers ;)

[Jazz_44]

What about the F15C that we have, it incorporates a FBW system as well, no?

[QuiGon]

The F-16 was the first USAF aircraft with FBW, so no, the F-15 has none. I heard the F-15 Silent Eagle (a prototype by now) has been upgraded with a FBW system, but all the current F-15s do not have one as far as I know. I think they have some kind of stability augmentation system though, similar to the A-10C.

[hellking]

I love the plane, but one thing that I feel like missing is the roll inertia. You do a full left stick and start rolling like crazy, then as soon as you bring the stick back, the plane stops rolling instantly. There is no roll inertia whatsoever. Even with FBW on, this should not be possible. The flight surfaces have their limits. They should not be able to bring a plane at full roll to a full roll stop in miliseconds.

 

This is the only big issue I have with the flight model. Other than this it all feels good. I hope they fix this because it is destroys all the immersion for me..

[jaguara5]

I love the plane, but one thing that I feel like missing is the roll inertia. You do a full left stick and start rolling like crazy, then as soon as you bring the stick back, the plane stops rolling instantly. There is no roll inertia whatsoever. Even with FBW on, this should not be possible. The flight surfaces have their limits. They should not be able to bring a plane at full roll to a full roll stop in miliseconds.

 

This is the only big issue I have with the flight model. Other than this it all feels good. I hope they fix this because it is destroys all the immersion for me..

The M2000 is very sharp in rolling. Look at the following video (from HAF M2000 Simulator)at 12:34 and espacially at 12:54

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdgZ7K2piRY[/ame]

.

[rrohde]

Question on landings: Does the Mirage hold the flare automatically by the means of FBW controls? Or is that an something because the EFM is still in its "infancy"?

 

Each time when landing, it seems as if the Mirage holds a flare by itself until the front wheels drop down without me doing anything.... That normal?

 

Love the plane, btw. Instant winner in terms of fun-factor. Can't wait to learn all the systems well enough to navigate and engage bandits. Awesome first release, RAZBAM!

[Paradox]

:mad:

 

THIS AIRCRAFT IS NOT TO BE FLOWN WITHOUT FBW !!!

 

I'm pleased to report that I now know why...

 

woooow

 

It might appear a bit railsy at first but I actually think CptSmiley has outdone himself on the flight model

 

That switch is staying very much in the *on* position where it belongs thanks very much

[jojo]

I love the plane, but one thing that I feel like missing is the roll inertia. You do a full left stick and start rolling like crazy, then as soon as you bring the stick back, the plane stops rolling instantly. There is no roll inertia whatsoever. Even with FBW on, this should not be possible. The flight surfaces have their limits. They should not be able to bring a plane at full roll to a full roll stop in miliseconds.

 

This is the only big issue I have with the flight model. Other than this it all feels good. I hope they fix this because it is destroys all the immersion for me..

 

Have a look:

 

 

[Aginor]

One thing I noticed about the FM (besides that it flies really well and is a lot of fun) was how well the Mirage retained its speed.

 

I took a Mirage without external storages, but with full fuel, went to Mach 2.04 at 32,000ft and then throttled back to about 90%. I dropped below Mach 1.5 pretty quickly, but then, even when flying pretty much leveled off at around 10,000ft I lost the speed very slowly, which was astonishing to me. When flying only gentle turns I remained supersonic for quite some time.

 

I wonder if that is still WIP or if it works that way in the real plane.

[rrohde]

Thanks for those videos, jojo! Amazing to see how snappy the Mirage really is. RAZBAM seemed to have captured this in their EFM really well so far!

Edited December 25, 2015 by rrohde

[IvanK]

Question on landings: Does the Mirage hold the flare automatically by the means of FBW controls? Or is that an something because the EFM is still in its "infancy"?

 

Each time when landing, it seems as if the Mirage holds a flare by itself until the front wheels drop down without me doing anything.... That normal?

 

Love the plane, btw. Instant winner in terms of fun-factor. Can't wait to learn all the systems well enough to navigate and engage bandits. Awesome first release, RAZBAM!

 

Never flown the Mirage 2000 but have a lot of time on the Mirage III. the Mirage III had selectable FBW in Pitch known as Autocommand. If you landed the aircraft with Autocommand engaged (we wernt meant to) the first clue you got that it was still in was the fact that the aircraft maintained the pitch attitude during the landing roll out until it ran out of lift and the nose drops. So seeing this in the Mir2000 seems logical to me.

[rrohde]

Thanks for the insight, IvanK! Good to know! :)

[Reagan505]

Agreed!

[Reagan505]

The roll rate and handling during rolls is fantastic in the Mirage 2000 (And earlier Mirgaes). The wing makes it very stable during a roll, especially coupled with the Flight Control / Fly By Wire systems working in concert.

[hellking]

Thanks for the videos guys. I agree that Mirage has a very good roll control, but the videos also validate my point. If you look closely you see that all rolls are accompanied by some kind of correction due to inertia. Just focus on when the roll ends abruptly. The roll does not stabilize immediately. Some kind of correction kicks in as soon as the roll ends.

 

Because of this, in all videos, rolls feel very fluid (under corrections / over-corrections probably due to FBW). In the RAZBAM flight model there is no correction. It feels too much like it is on a wire.

[Brisse]

I noticed the flight model seem to be lacking simulation of control surface actuators. What I mean is that the control surfaces immediately moves into position at infinity high speed. This could be a reason for some of the complaints I've seen such as "lack of roll inertia" and "on rails". I'm pretty sure other DCS modules simulate the limitations of control surface actuators. You can see when you come out of a fast roll how the FBW dampens the roll, but if the control surface actuators had some limitations of what they are able to do then that dampening would be less effective.

 

Edit: Are you reading this Razbam, or do I have to make a bug report?

Edited December 25, 2015 by Brisse

[Reagan505]

 

What about the F15C that we have, it incorporates a FBW system as well, no?

 

Just some info to share about the F-15 and FBW:

 

The F-15 has a mechanical flight control system in conjunction with a fly-by-wire system. It is fully flyable without the FBW system. It has positive to neutral tendencies and a flight computer is not absolutely necessary for the pilot to adequately control it. (negative tendency aircraft are difficult to control or even uncontrollable without computer assistance)

 

"The pilot flies the machine through an analog electronic "fly by wire (FBW)" system named the "Control Augmentation System (CAS)", though the aircraft can still be flown if the CAS is disabled. "

 

F15A was designed without FBW but they added the "control augmentation system" later, on a few As, and later.

 

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf15_1.htm

Edited December 25, 2015 by Reagan505

[hellking]

I noticed the flight model seem to be lacking simulation of control surface actuators. What I mean is that the control surfaces immediately moves into position at infinity high speed. This could be a reason for some of the complaints I've seen such as "lack of roll inertia" and "on rails". I'm pretty sure other DCS modules simulate the limitations of control surface actuators. You can see when you come out of a fast roll how the FBW dampens the roll, but if the control surface actuators had some limitations of what they are able to do then that dampening would be less effective.

 

Edit: Are you reading this Razbam, or do I have to make a bug report?

 

Brisse, I think you are right. This is part (perhaps most) of the issue. Normally it should be like this:

 

Control stick sends signal to move actuators (this is probably instant)

Actuators move, generates force to roll (some delay)

Force generates roll velocity (some delay)

Roll velocity generates roll displacement (some delay)

 

I don't know what portion of the total delay is due to what portion of the physics. But currently, all of these delays sum up to a too small number.

[Zeus67]

I noticed the flight model seem to be lacking simulation of control surface actuators. What I mean is that the control surfaces immediately moves into position at infinity high speed. This could be a reason for some of the complaints I've seen such as "lack of roll inertia" and "on rails". I'm pretty sure other DCS modules simulate the limitations of control surface actuators. You can see when you come out of a fast roll how the FBW dampens the roll, but if the control surface actuators had some limitations of what they are able to do then that dampening would be less effective.

 

Edit: Are you reading this Razbam, or do I have to make a bug report?

 

Oh. I am reading your post but I cannot reply since CptSmiley is the one with the knowledge and he is out for the time being.