[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues

[OnlyforDCS]

Ok, I bit the bullet and ordered a BENQ EW2775ZH 27" 1080p monitor. It features an improved MVA panel for extreme contrast and good color gamut.

 

Yeah it's pretty big for 1080p, which is exactly why I bought it. I realize that my pixel density will suffer, and things will probably look a bit crappy in regular desktop use, but DCS is all I care about at home, and I want to put the theory to the test that larger monitors offer a better experience in DCS. (At the same resolution)

 

I currently have a 23" Samsung LED 1080p monitor.

 

Picking it up after work today, will post my experiences and results here later today, or tomorrow.

[imacken]

Ok, I bit the bullet and ordered a BENQ EW2775ZH 27" 1080p monitor. It features an improved MVA panel for extreme contrast and good color gamut.

 

Yeah it's pretty big for 1080p, which is exactly why I bought it. I realize that my pixel density will suffer, and things will probably look a bit crappy in regular desktop use, but DCS is all I care about at home, and I want to put the theory to the test that larger monitors offer a better experience in DCS. (At the same resolution)

 

I currently have a 23" Samsung LED 1080p monitor.

 

Picking it up after work today, will post my experiences and results here later today, or tomorrow.

Why didn't you go for a higher res monitor, e.g. 2560x1440, to avoid the crappy look of desktop stuff and play DCS at a lower res, e.g. 1920x1080?

I have a 27" 5120x2880 but play DCS at 2560x1440. Best of both worlds!

[OnlyforDCS]

Why didn't you go for a higher res monitor, e.g. 2560x1440, to avoid the crappy look of desktop stuff and play DCS at a lower res, e.g. 1920x1080?

I have a 27" 5120x2880 but play DCS at 2560x1440. Best of both worlds!

 

TBH I was thinking of a 27" 1440p originally, however I couldn't justify the cost at the moment. (Struggling with getting a new business venture off the ground, and raising a family). Every cent counts, and the wife is keeping count. :) When the money starts rolling in (6-12 months most probably) Im thinking of getting into VR and buying a monster graphics card, so buying a top of the line monitor now doesn't make much sense. Though I might wait for the second generation of VR to get here. (Oculus CV2)

Edited May 9, 2017 by OnlyforDCS

[imacken]

Every cent counts, and the wife is keeping count. :)

 

Now I understand!

[OnlyforDCS]

Ok here is a quick report on the new monitor:

 

I just flew a sortie with the Spitfire on the Burning Skies server. Holy crap, the difference is huge!! Im having no issues with spotting AND keeping visual on a bandit in the merge. Got into a few furballs, managed to damage a 109 and kept after him as he tried to escape to base. Had to break off as I ran out of ammo for my cannons. Flew back, managed to avoid a couple of 109s that I noticed were flying above me, and landed at base. Wow.

 

Yes, there is definitely an advantage to having a nice, large, full color monitor with a great contrast ratio. The bandits are no longer disappearing when flying against the ground anymore.

 

Note: Switched from analog (VGA) port to a digital HDMI port. Don't know if this made a difference either, but I read that with an analog picture not every rendered pixel might be displayed.

 

*2nd note: The desktop, actually looks much, much better. I thought the lower pixel density would make things look crappy, but it's exactly the opposite. I don't know why that is. Not sure if Im really lucky or what, but I feel like I hit the jackpot with this particular monitor. Heartily recommended!

Edited May 10, 2017 by OnlyforDCS
additional info

[SeaW0lf]

Note: Switched from analog (VGA) port to a digital HDMI port. Don't know if this made a difference either, but I read that with an analog picture not every rendered pixel might be displayed.

 

It does make a difference, but I have a 2560X1080 monitor with displayPort and the problem persists. Then it might be resolution.

[OnlyforDCS]

Seawolf what is the make and model of your monitor?

[lemoen]

Was just trying to place some bombs close to some targets. When I'm a few miles away I can see them fairly clearly then there's a point where they suddenly become invisible and then when I'm MUCH closer I can start making them out. It should be the other way round, more difficult from further with no sudden jump (wtf did it just go!?) in visibility. PLS ED help us!

[SeaW0lf]

Seawolf what is the make and model of your monitor?

 

It is a Philips 298P4QJEB. Good overall monitor / but not for gaming. Very few IPS glow and a gorgeous image to my taste.

[OnlyforDCS]

Strange, that is a pretty good monitor you should be seeing better results with it. Have you tried turning off Antialiasing?

[SeaW0lf]

Strange, that is a pretty good monitor you should be seeing better results with it. Have you tried turning off Antialiasing?

 

Perhaps I don't use as much contrast as some gamers do, because I use it basically 24/7 (I work at home). The ingame colors outside the cockpit are too washed out in comparison to other games and I might need to work with SweetFX, although the sun-blinder effect has a good contrast and the cockpit look gorgeous, so my general impression is that they need to work on volume and constrast / reflection on the planes / terrain -- which they seem to be doing from the Normandy videos.

 

And yes, AA is off.

[Brigg]

Why didn't you go for a higher res monitor, e.g. 2560x1440, to avoid the crappy look of desktop stuff and play DCS at a lower res, e.g. 1920x1080?

I have a 27" 5120x2880 but play DCS at 2560x1440. Best of both worlds!

 

thats exactly what I do. for some reason flight sims are the only games i cant have at my native. and tbh it doesnt look to bad when you crank up the aa to 16xq

[ShuRugal]

I realize I am a bit late to the party here, but just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in (even if it will never be read by the devs... who would sift through 60 pages of this?):

 

Last weekend flying out of Hanover (KOFP) with my instructor, I was easily able to to spot traffic in the pattern around KRIC... 15 nautical miles away. Most of the traffic in and out of KRIC consists of short-haul passenger service (Dash 8s et al) and general aviation. At one point, I was able to spot and identify a Cessna 172 making his crosswind turn out of KRIC.... I know that's what he as because 15 minutes later, he was on the ground at KOFP...

 

If I can spot a 172 at 15nm IRL, but I cannot spot an F-15 at 5 in DCS, something is very VERY wrong.

[OnlyforDCS]

Thanks for the comment ShuRugal. It's always good to hear the experiences of real world pilots. I think things will improve with 2.1. and that won't be the end of it either.

[GGTharos]

Maybe you have exceptional vision? Maybe the day was exceptionally clear? Maybe you weren't head on? Maybe those aircraft presented great contrast? And official USAF studies disagree with you on the spotting distance, as do many pilots - more to the point, in the real world this spotting distance depends on many factors. There's even a write-up of eagle pilots describing needing the radar to show them where to look to spot a fighter 7-8nm away (and by that I mean with the TD, in the HUD). They wouldn't 'spot it' just looking around. Vietnam pilots lost sight of MiG-21's tail-on when they were chasing them from just 2nm.

 

Visual representation in-game has big issues, yes, but average spotting (search) distance for an aircraft is about 2-3nm. You definitely should be able to pick up an F-15 at 5; but there's something that the game doesn't simulate, and that's very important: Only the central 2 degrees or so of your vision have the acuity to do this, so you really have to know where to look. In-game, we already have all these 'dot wars', essentially reducing the usefulness of radars and other sensors to a great degree. The fact that you can spot an aircraft 20nm away so easily is far more 'wrong' than not being able to spot one inside of 5nm. Both have issues, but one is quite a bit worse than the other.

 

 

I realize I am a bit late to the party here, but just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in (even if it will never be read by the devs... who would sift through 60 pages of this?):

 

Last weekend flying out of Hanover (KOFP) with my instructor, I was easily able to to spot traffic in the pattern around KRIC... 15 nautical miles away. Most of the traffic in and out of KRIC consists of short-haul passenger service (Dash 8s et al) and general aviation. At one point, I was able to spot and identify a Cessna 172 making his crosswind turn out of KRIC.... I know that's what he as because 15 minutes later, he was on the ground at KOFP...

 

If I can spot a 172 at 15nm IRL, but I cannot spot an F-15 at 5 in DCS, something is very VERY wrong.

Edited May 11, 2017 by GGTharos

[ShuRugal]

Maybe you have exceptional vision?

20/500 ish. I'm legally blind without glasses.

 

Maybe the day was exceptionally clear?

 

About average. Clarity was to the horizon, but scattered showers in the area meant lighting was moderate to poor.

 

Maybe you weren't head on?

 

Maybe I stated that. I should have been more clear: I frequently cannot see aircraft in DCS from abeam when they are banked towards me with the light above and behind me.

 

 

Maybe those aircraft presented great contrast?

 

Definitely.

 

The fact that you can spot an aircraft 20nm away so easily is far more 'wrong' than not being able to spot one inside of 5nm. Both have issues, but one is quite a bit worse than the other.

 

Yeah, don't you just -hate- it when real life fails to align with your preferred facts??

Edited May 12, 2017 by ShuRugal

[GGTharos]

My 'preferred facts' are subjects of much study.

 

We have a simulator that can't do everything. You have to choose what to simulate :)

[NineLine]

I can spot and identify a hot girl at 15nm, aircraft, they can be a little tougher, especially if their goal is to hide from me. Saying you can spot on at an airport, or around one, well that is kind different as you know there is gonna be aircraft bopping around there.

 

Remember as well, this is a sim, if you want to spot from that distance, which, sorry, I have trouble believing you could find a fighter trying to kill you that easily... then turn on labels.

 

Spotting is getting better in DCS, but you have to be realistic as well. This is a computer simulation of real life, you are going to lose something in translation.

[AMEDooley]

So I'm not a pilot, I'm a crew chief and I get to watch airplanes all day. As they are coming in I can spot them from about 15nn away. Now I am on the ground and I obviously know where to look, but even if I didn't you can see them with the naked eye. I do have 20/20 vision but our visibility here sucks but I can tell you that what we have in the sim isn't very life like. At least from my vantage.

[AMEDooley]

I should also caveat that I'm talking about F-16 and F-35 with occasionally other fighters and heavy's.

[David OC]

I should also caveat that I'm talking about F-16 and F-35 with occasionally other fighters and heavy's.

 

Are you just rubbing it in here AMEDooley? Bit jealous here...:)

 

 

So I'm not a pilot, I'm a crew chief and I get to watch airplanes all day.

 

-

Edited May 12, 2017 by David OC

[NineLine]

WOuld you say when you started your ability to spot improved as you got more experience under your belt?

 

I also think there is a huge difference with knowing the position of the aircraft and where to look.

 

I know that in the sim, based on the current Normandy Backer version, I can see dots above 6nm. I think they could be a bit better contrast wise, but I think we are getting there.

 

But I am gonna stand firm on the fact that if those aircraft were coming to sneak up on you, and you didnt know they were coming or from what direction, you might not be able to pick them up quite as fast, I could be way wrong, but I know at an airshow I can lose a formation of display jets in the sky when my little on distracts me for a minute :D

[klem]

WOuld you say when you started your ability to spot improved as you got more experience under your belt?

 

I also think there is a huge difference with knowing the position of the aircraft and where to look.

 

I know that in the sim, based on the current Normandy Backer version, I can see dots above 6nm. I think they could be a bit better contrast wise, but I think we are getting there.

 

But I am gonna stand firm on the fact that if those aircraft were coming to sneak up on you, and you didnt know they were coming or from what direction, you might not be able to pick them up quite as fast, I could be way wrong, but I know at an airshow I can lose a formation of display jets in the sky when my little on distracts me for a minute :D

 

There are a large number of factors that come into play in RL, mostly angle and environment/lighting. We shouldn't expect one visibilty result from dots and models. I live 2nm from the local small airport (cessnas, robins, small twins etc ). Even from the ground (no terrain issues) what I see varies from day to day. Sun angle/direction has a huge effect, either a fast fading silver grey a/c lost within 1nm or perhaps clearly trackable 2nm++ by down-sun fuselage shadow. Yesterday I watched a Cessna 172 tail on heading directly away from me under the evening overcast, a grey blurring outline but still easily visible 2nm+ away.

 

There are several RL Pilots' sources out there that talk about eyeball contact at 5-7nm range. I'd be happy with that. If I can't see them they can't see me, radar apart. Instead of asking for unrealistic spotting perhaps we should make more use of radar GCI where there is no cockpit radar as in Korean/WWII scenarios even if it means using 'modern' ground systems or even a bogus E3A..

[lemoen]

The discussion seems to target spotting other planes in the air. However, this is an issue with spotting ground targets too. The way it is now is that we have dots with a given colour at medium ranges, so you can see the tank / plane / building. Then very suddenly, that dot changes both in size and colour and becomes effectively invisible. This is at a range where I think they really should be visible, if you know what you are looking for and where to look. Around 5-8km away I think. Spotting cars on a road from ~30 000ft, say, is possible on a clear day, I have seen this personally from an airliner. Contrast is good in this case, which helps. Clearly the change from the dot to the visible model needs to be tweaked so that we won't notice this change AND that we're able to see targets at a reasonable distance.

[ShuRugal]

We have a simulator that can't do everything. You have to choose what to simulate :)

 

So, you're saying it's a deliberate choice by the developers to not simulate real-world visibility?

 

I find that rather a large... quantity... to swallow.