Does a FFB controller make a HUGE difference ?...

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I've never been able to geta a good old MS FFB joystick, but in both sims I use presently, users have reported that it provides a better experience overall.

 

When I tried a controller of that kind, long ago, with MS CFS 2 I didn't like the feel and the simulation of the effects at all, but I assume it is done much better in DCS and my other sim...

 

Actually, in that other sim users report that in the pre-stall region, buffeting is clearly sensed in the FFB stick. In DCS when approaching critical AoA I already have the visual clues, and I just don't "feel" the stick shaking, but I wonder of those of you using such devices can give me more insight into the advantages of using it ?

 

THX!

[Jef Costello]

Hi jcomm!

I use the MS FFB2 with FSX and the warbirds of DCS. Personnally I really enjoy it and the"feeling of flight it gives you":joystick:, the lightness of the controls at low speed, the shaking of the stick at the buffeting...there are many discussions on the net about FFB(See A2A topics), many people think it's useless but at the end it's your own taste that prevails.

 

Cheers

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Hi jcomm!

I use the MS FFB2 with FSX and the warbirds of DCS. Personnally I really enjoy it and the"feeling of flight it gives you":joystick:, the lightness of the controls at low speed, the shaking of the stick at the buffeting...there are many discussions on the net about FFB(See A2A topics), many people think it's useless but at the end it's your own taste that prevails.

 

Cheers

 

Thx Jef...

 

I'm one of those who think that, if you're simulating "flying" an Airbus, it doesn't make sense, but for conventional aircraft, or aircraft that even being FBW reproduce force feedback ( like a 777 IRL ), it makes all sense :-)

[Sporg]

I've never been able to geta a good old MS FFB joystick, but in both sims I use presently, users have reported that it provides a better experience overall.

 

When I tried a controller of that kind, long ago, with MS CFS 2 I didn't like the feel and the simulation of the effects at all, but I assume it is done much better in DCS and my other sim...

 

Actually, in that other sim users report that in the pre-stall region, buffeting is clearly sensed in the FFB stick. In DCS when approaching critical AoA I already have the visual clues, and I just don't "feel" the stick shaking, but I wonder of those of you using such devices can give me more insight into the advantages of using it ?

 

THX!

 

You could also consider getting a FFB seat. ;)

With that, you have the FFB in your butt instead of in the stick. :D

 

I'm using this one, Gametrix KW-908 Jetseat, and can hardly think of flying without it anymore:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134704

 

My own review shortly after receiving it here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2437849&postcount=212

 

Another enthusiastic review from a real life pilot:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2430581&postcount=182

 

With this, I clearly feel the pre-stall buffeting, right from the onset, and I rarely stall out anymore.

The sense of immersion is fantastic overall.

 

And as stated in my review, I feel I have become a much more consistent and "clean" pilot than I was before.

 

(A PS: Since my review, full gun and cannon effects have been implemented in the 109.

I can also feel when I release drop-tank or bomb.

Other effects like vibration in the back from afterburner and shudders from speed brakes in jets are fantastic.

Vibrations in the Huey when in transition zones and when nearing max speed has also transformed both my flying and the general feeling of immersion there.)

 

(PPS: I would imagine that this seat in combination with a good FFB stick would be phenomenal. But haven't felt the need to replace my WT yet. :) )

Edited January 10, 2016 by Sporg

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

You could also consider getting a FFB seat. ;)

With that, you have the FFB in your butt instead of in the stick. :D

 

I'm using this one, Gametrix KW-908 Jetseat, and can hardly think of flying without it anymore:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134704

 

My own review shortly after receiving it here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2437849&postcount=212

 

Another enthusiastic review from a real life pilot:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2430581&postcount=182

 

With this, I clearly feel the pre-stall buffeting, right from the onset, and I rarely stall out anymore.

The sense of immersion is fantastic overall.

 

And as stated in my review, I feel I have become a much more consistent and "clean" pilot than I was before.

 

(A PS: Since my review, full gun and cannon effects have been implemented in the 109.

I can also feel when I release drop-tank or bomb.

Other effects like vibration in the back from afterburner and shudders from speed brakes in jets are fantastic.

Vibrations in the Huey when in transition zones and when nearing max speed has also transformed both my flying and the general feeling of immersion there.)

 

(PPS: I would imagine that this seat in combination with a good FFB stick would be phenomenal. But haven't felt the need to replace my WT yet. :) )

 

 

Thx Sporg!

 

Didn't even such a thing existed !!!

 

Anyway, wife and budget wouldn't accept it :-/

 

Thanksfully I have one of those when flying my glider :-)

[Sporg]

Thx Sporg!

 

Didn't even such a thing existed !!!

 

Anyway, wife and budget wouldn't accept it :-/

 

Thanksfully I have one of those when flying my glider :-)

 

Hehe, ask Andre, the developer, I think you will find it is not overly expensive.

 

And for your wife, just sell it as a "massage seat", that's what other people have done (incl. me :D).

It even comes with a massage demo. :D

 

As for your glider seat, a bit envious here. ;)

[gavagai]

I would give up trackir before I would give up my msffb2. Get one.

[Rain]

Best stick you can buy.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Best stick you can buy.

 

Have to get one, really :-)

 

And that seat too Sporg :-)

[Fri13]

I bought Logitech G940 exactly for the reason to have a FFB. And I wouldn't switch it to any other exactly for that reason.

I even made a 35cm extension for helicopter flying and it is incredible. The FFB is strong enough to give good force and push back.

 

Many praise the Microsoft Sidewinder FFB2 but I didn't like it as much as from G940. You can mod the MS stick to have much stronger FFB by using motors from a another stick, but in my opinion it already goes way over the good FFB strength that G940 gives with 35cm extension. And then if I remove the extension (it is attachable in 30 seconds) I need to lower FFB strength from 80% to about 40-50% to get good power control as that stick can push back too much.

 

The FFB benefits are that you can feel aircraft nicely, like when it is starting to stall, when angle of attack is going over optimum one etc before any warning even is raised. This way you stay better in control of the aircrafts.

 

But where the FFB really is the thing, is the KA-50 and Mi-8MTv2. It is so easy just feel the helicopter, get it trimmed perfectly so easily and then just take hands off from HOTAS and let the autopilot fly the route or focus to cockpit or just look around without worrying.

 

But the FFB is not so crucial for fighters as it is for helicopters with trim. It is nice in Su-27S that trimming moves the stick and then it stays there, so you know what is your trim positions. It is nice in Su-25 how you feel air breaks affecting the aircraft, and how you need to use more force to pull aircraft from dive when in heavy load. But nothing is so crucial that FFB HOTAS is worth to buy as fighter pilot alone.

 

Why? Because DCS does't really support FFB well. They don't use everywhere the effects when firing cannons etc. Example with KA-50 you can feel the stick shaking on each fire of the cannon and when firing the rockets you can feel the aircraft to change attitude etc, but nothing very serious. It is more for the flight modeling really.

 

When Microsoft released the Sidewinder 2 FFB stick back in 90's there were few flight games that used its effects. Like Red Baron II was such that if you had FFB 100% then you couldn't really fire any machineguns as stick was shaking in full force all around the base and your aircraft went crazy. So quickly to down the FFB and if I remember correct, only way really was to disable FFB.

 

Where I really liked FFB in Microsoft products was the Sidewinder FFB Wheel. I have it even today (not tested since Windows 2000) and it was excellent when driving NFS Porche, how you felt the different grounds and the tires grip etc.

 

But for todays flight sims, if you don't fly helicopters, it isn't so much worth.

For fighters I would take a "G-suit". A vest that is locked around you from back of the chair and behind the chair is simple motors that can pull the ties on the vest. So when you pull G forces, the vest squeeze you to the chair just a bit (for safety reasons not much as older people can actually get heart attack) and you can feel being little uncomfortable and difficult to breath. And such simulates very well the fighter pilots capability to fly high G attacks.

[S-GERAT]

I had a Logitech G940,and was using it during a couple of years until I get the Warthog.. never again used it after that..

 

The FFB effects are great, and the most useful of it is trimming the helicopters, but it lacks a lot of precision compared with the Warthog, and it feel like a toy compared with that one..

[Yo-Yo]

But the FFB is not so crucial for fighters as it is for helicopters with trim. It is nice in Su-27S that trimming moves the stick and then it stays there, so you know what is your trim positions. It is nice in Su-25 how you feel air breaks affecting the aircraft, and how you need to use more force to pull aircraft from dive when in heavy load. But nothing is so crucial that FFB HOTAS is worth to buy as fighter pilot alone.

 

Why? Because DCS does't really support FFB well. They don't use everywhere the effects when firing cannons etc. Example with KA-50 you can feel the stick shaking on each fire of the cannon and when firing the rockets you can feel the aircraft to change attitude etc, but nothing very serious. It is more for the flight modeling really.

 

When Microsoft released the Sidewinder 2 FFB stick back in 90's there were few flight games that used its effects. Like Red Baron II was such that if you had FFB 100% then you couldn't really fire any machineguns as stick was shaking in full force all around the base and your aircraft went crazy. So quickly to down the FFB and if I remember correct, only way really was to disable FFB.

 

..................

 

But for todays flight sims, if you don't fly helicopters, it isn't so much worth.

 

 

You got the point why ED "does not support FFB" :) We support those options that are real and do not suuport all that pop-music named "true FFB" by mistake. Real fighter stick will never shake during firing, for expample. Our opponents often tell that this shaking represents the relative movement (the airframe and the pilot shaking differently, so the FFB simulates this unwanted input!).

Never. Our arm is a mechanical system having two levers and ball hinges. This system allows to eliminate direct transmission from the body to the hand, otherwise everybody would jerk the steering wheel on a slightly uneven road. :)

The effect of touchdown must not be translated to the stick too, excluding the case of a bobweight in the lateral control linkage.

Instead of it we implemented true hinge moment effects including reverse fligh snatching (but not so pronounced because of low joystick forces at low speed).

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I bought Logitech G940 exactly for the reason to have a FFB. And I wouldn't switch it to any other exactly for that reason.

I even made a 35cm extension for helicopter flying and it is incredible. The FFB is strong enough to give good force and push back.

 

Many praise the Microsoft Sidewinder FFB2 but I didn't like it as much as from G940. You can mod the MS stick to have much stronger FFB by using motors from a another stick, but in my opinion it already goes way over the good FFB strength that G940 gives with 35cm extension. And then if I remove the extension (it is attachable in 30 seconds) I need to lower FFB strength from 80% to about 40-50% to get good power control as that stick can push back too much.

 

The FFB benefits are that you can feel aircraft nicely, like when it is starting to stall, when angle of attack is going over optimum one etc before any warning even is raised. This way you stay better in control of the aircrafts.

 

But where the FFB really is the thing, is the KA-50 and Mi-8MTv2. It is so easy just feel the helicopter, get it trimmed perfectly so easily and then just take hands off from HOTAS and let the autopilot fly the route or focus to cockpit or just look around without worrying.

 

But the FFB is not so crucial for fighters as it is for helicopters with trim. It is nice in Su-27S that trimming moves the stick and then it stays there, so you know what is your trim positions. It is nice in Su-25 how you feel air breaks affecting the aircraft, and how you need to use more force to pull aircraft from dive when in heavy load. But nothing is so crucial that FFB HOTAS is worth to buy as fighter pilot alone.

 

Why? Because DCS does't really support FFB well. They don't use everywhere the effects when firing cannons etc. Example with KA-50 you can feel the stick shaking on each fire of the cannon and when firing the rockets you can feel the aircraft to change attitude etc, but nothing very serious. It is more for the flight modeling really.

 

When Microsoft released the Sidewinder 2 FFB stick back in 90's there were few flight games that used its effects. Like Red Baron II was such that if you had FFB 100% then you couldn't really fire any machineguns as stick was shaking in full force all around the base and your aircraft went crazy. So quickly to down the FFB and if I remember correct, only way really was to disable FFB.

 

Where I really liked FFB in Microsoft products was the Sidewinder FFB Wheel. I have it even today (not tested since Windows 2000) and it was excellent when driving NFS Porche, how you felt the different grounds and the tires grip etc.

 

But for todays flight sims, if you don't fly helicopters, it isn't so much worth.

For fighters I would take a "G-suit". A vest that is locked around you from back of the chair and behind the chair is simple motors that can pull the ties on the vest. So when you pull G forces, the vest squeeze you to the chair just a bit (for safety reasons not much as older people can actually get heart attack) and you can feel being little uncomfortable and difficult to breath. And such simulates very well the fighter pilots capability to fly high G attacks.

 

Thanks so much for the comments !

[OnlyforDCS]

Short answer? Yes, yes it does!

[humptydumpty]

The FFB is only good on shakes and bumps and probably when banking or elevating as there is a force which will oppose it

[Sporg]

You got the point why ED "does not support FFB" :) We support those options that are real and do not support all that pop-music named "true FFB" by mistake. Real fighter stick will never shake during firing, for example. Our opponents often tell that this shaking represents the relative movement (the airframe and the pilot shaking differently, so the FFB simulates this unwanted input!).

Never. Our arm is a mechanical system having two levers and ball hinges. This system allows to eliminate direct transmission from the body to the hand, otherwise everybody would jerk the steering wheel on a slightly uneven road. :)

The effect of touchdown must not be translated to the stick too, excluding the case of a bobweight in the lateral control linkage.

Instead of it we implemented true hinge moment effects including reverse flight snatching (but not so pronounced because of low joystick forces at low speed).

 

I love this. :)

 

This is also why I like my FFB seat, that translates all the airframe vibrations (incl. guns etc.) to my back instead of the stick.

 

And your explanation is the confirmation to my idea, that a FFB stick could be a benefit to use in combination with the seat.

It's two different sets of FFB effects. :)

[DD_Fenrir]

As a RL student glider pilot and having some stick time in powered aerobatic cleared a/c, the FFB experience in DCS with the piston powered analogue control a/c is excellent.

 

I am dreading the day mine falls over with no apparent equivalent replacement on the market.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I really have to try and get one of those then ...

 

Thank you All for your comments.

 

Yo-Yo, why do you say ED doesn't support FFB? It does, right ? It's even the the controller options menu ???

[Bounder]

Glad to see you were persuaded jcomm, just wanted to add a big +1 on the MSFFB for DCS warbirds. I’m a recent convert but not for the ‘shaky’ feedback (I turn this off/tune it right down – nothing worse than your stick buffeting around as you hold a turn) but for the way the stick forces increase resistance to match the in-game stick at high speeds – very very useful especially in the 109.

[Sporg]

I really have to try and get one of those then ...

 

Thank you All for your comments.

 

Yo-Yo, why do you say ED doesn't support FFB? It does, right ? It's even the the controller options menu ???

 

What Yo-Yo says is that DCS does not support FFB in it's commonly seen implementation: Stick shaking with guns, shaking from wheels on ground etc.

(More "arcade"-ish if you like.)

Reason: You would not feel these effects in the stick in real life.

 

Instead DCS FFB supports realistic sensations from the flight, like airflow on flight controls (incl. buffeting), pressure from trim movement etc.

But only that.

 

For me it both gives me a reason to consider a FFB stick to complement my seat, and confirms that the seat in itself is a good idea:

The seat conveys the sensations from the airframe, but not the control surfaces.

The stick then conveys the flight control sensations.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

What Yo-Yo says is that DCS does not support FFB in it's commonly seen implementation: Stick shaking with guns, shaking from wheels on ground etc.

(More "arcade"-ish if you like.)

Reason: You would not feel these effects in the stick in real life.

 

Instead DCS FFB supports realistic sensations from the flight, like airflow on flight controls (incl. buffeting), pressure from trim movement etc.

But only that.

 

For me it both gives me a reason to consider a FFB stick to complement my seat, and confirms that the seat in itself is a good idea:

The seat conveys the sensations from the airframe, but not the control surfaces.

The stick then conveys the flight control sensations.

 

Ok Sporg, now I understand... :thumbup:

[NineLine]

I really want to try one of these seat pads, I have heard nothing but good things about them.

 

You could also consider getting a FFB seat. ;)

With that, you have the FFB in your butt instead of in the stick. :D

 

I'm using this one, Gametrix KW-908 Jetseat, and can hardly think of flying without it anymore:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134704

 

My own review shortly after receiving it here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2437849&postcount=212

 

Another enthusiastic review from a real life pilot:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2430581&postcount=182

 

With this, I clearly feel the pre-stall buffeting, right from the onset, and I rarely stall out anymore.

The sense of immersion is fantastic overall.

 

And as stated in my review, I feel I have become a much more consistent and "clean" pilot than I was before.

 

(A PS: Since my review, full gun and cannon effects have been implemented in the 109.

I can also feel when I release drop-tank or bomb.

Other effects like vibration in the back from afterburner and shudders from speed brakes in jets are fantastic.

Vibrations in the Huey when in transition zones and when nearing max speed has also transformed both my flying and the general feeling of immersion there.)

 

(PPS: I would imagine that this seat in combination with a good FFB stick would be phenomenal. But haven't felt the need to replace my WT yet. :) )

[Nirvi]

The Gametrix KW908 was my best purchase last year, highly recommended:thumbup:

My landings in the WWII birds are much softer now, because I can feel the correct speed for a 3 point landing :D

 

FFB really makes a big difference.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Nirvi

[upupandaway]

Many people dislike the Logitech G940. I have never had any bigger issues with it during the last three years. Throttle and pedals had to be replaced though. The stick conveys very adequate feedback from control surfaces in props or the trim in helicopters. Wouldn't want to miss it.

[Merlin-27]

Another option if you only desire the stall onset vibration...

 

1. Grab a Logitech Rumblepad 2

2. Crack it open.

3. Extend the wiring to the primary weighted motor.

4. Use a clamp to secure the motor somewhere on your stick extension.

5. Optional - Extend some of the buttons for extra input options.

 

Works great with 1.5

 

EDIT:

And if you do want other "rumbles" I can attest that the AuraSound AST-2B-4 Pro Bass Shaker Tactile Transducer works great in DCS.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Merlin-27