Settling With Power????

[AG-51_Razor]

Has nobody yet complained about this model's propensity for entering settling with power (or the deaded vortex ring state)??

 

I must confess that, as a professional helicopter pilot, I have traditionally kept away from desktop simulators of helicopters simply because I know just how difficult they are to master with all of the tactile input from my a$$ and nearly impossible without it. I have tried the MS Bell 206 in FSX and was greatly embarrassed. I even tried the UH-1 from Belsimtek thinking that, with 1100 hours or so in the Huey, it shouldn't be too difficult. NOT!! So, after seeing several videos of the Mi-8 in action, I was extremely impressed with how real it seemed and wanted to try it for myself. Now, I have spent the majority of my career in the utility segment of helicopter operations, doing external load work on seismic exploration projects, firefighting, logging, downtown construction jobs, powerline costruction projects, as well as the odd engineering test flight project and even about 1200 hours of dual instruction given. I am writing this, not to try to impress anyone here but rather to let you know that I am not a wannabe, or rivet counter or avid reader of text books about helicopter aerodynamics. I am just a real life helicopter pilot with about 11,000 hours of rotorwing flight time in my log book and not making this complaint about the Magnificent 8 out of ignorance.

 

I have flown along side of them while fighting fire down in Australia and they work all around us down in the Amazon basin in Peru. They are marvelous machines and fly very well under some very tuff conditions. They have a very well earned reputation of being extremely reliable and an honest helicopter to fly. The only real problem with them is that the rotor blades turn the wrong direction!! My problem with this model is that it seems to want to enter settling with power at the drop of a hat and about 4 out of 5 approaches to a landing site ends up in a smoking hole! I can assure you all that if this were anything like the real Hip, it would have a well deserved reputation as a widow maker and nobody would fly it....willingly. I love the vibrations while going through translational lift! That depiction is absolutely spot on! Both while accelerating AND decelerating. But once in a hover, it's like, the lead programer read the FAA's description of settling with power and committed it to memory and took it as gospel. I can promise you that, just because a helicopter is at zero to near zero airspeed, has 300 FPM or greater rate of descent and at least 20% power applied to the rotor system, you will not automatically enter settling with power. The Hughes/Schweitzer/Sikorsky 269/300 is an excellent example. The Sikorsky S-64 is another. I can't speak directly to the Mi-8, having never flown one, but as I said, I have fought fire right along side of one and we were going up and down the hills, into and out of the dip sites together and I can say for certain that, if that helicopter was as tricky to fly as this one in the simulation is, that pilot would have stacked his up right off the bat!!

 

I'm all for realism, and Belsimtek is right up there with the very best as far as I am concerned. But this seems to be a bit over done in my professional opinion. I'll grant y'all that the 2D, desktop, lack of tactile input part of it makes this WAY more difficult than it is in real life and any of you out there that have mastered this module, or any desktop helicopter for that matter, have my undying admiration and respect because you have accomplished something that most real helicopter pilots could never do. I am just shocked that I saw no threads in here about this "problem". Maybe it's only a problem for me??? :joystick:

[Justin Case]

Nice to get some inputs from someone with credibility!

 

When I went from Huey to Hip I had the same problem but now I have learned when the dangerous part occurs, and it's much later than I would think coming from the Huey.

 

I initially thought the same thing, this seems dangerous, but later assumed it was due to the missing "seat of the pants". I can't claim myself to be an expert with my 20 minutes of hovering time in a Hughes 269 but if I recall correctly the guy who created the Mi-8 for DCS flies the Hip IRL.

[Mud]

That was a good read, thanks Razor.

 

I'm especially curious on how you experience flying the Huey in DCS. I assume that missing the tactile input is the greatest difference, but are there any other things that you find which really stand out?

[AG-51_Razor]

I never spent that much time in the DCS Huey Mud, but I can say that all the switches are in the same place they were when I flew them in the Army. The sounds seem to be right on as well. The visual model is absolutely beautiful but I can't fly it to save my life! The only thing I can say about the Huey that is missing, is the plate on the belly that was supposed to diffuse the heat signature coming out of the transmission oil cooler. It was part of the Strella kit, which included the toilet bowl on the exhaust and some panels along the outside of the engine cowling doors.

 

We had a VHF-AM, a UHF and an FM for radio communications. On any given day when you walked out to the flight line to fly a mission, you could usually count on 2 out of the 3 radios working and usually the attitude and heading indicators were operational. There was a VOR reciever and an ADF for navigation but no ILS. We did not have rotor brakes or radar altimeters. They were very basic but got us where we needed to be, along with a bunch of snuffies in the back! A very easy helicopter to fly. I can say without any hesitation whatsoever that any of you guys flying these helicopters in this sim would have no trouble at all getting into a real machine and be hovering it around in no time!

[Cibit]

The developers have at least 2 Mi-17 pilots working with them, I would imagine and going off the Mi-8 news thread they are a very thorough bunch and would not model anything unrealistic if avoidable.

No offence Razor but pilot error may be a factor

 

BTW what is the gross weight of a Sikorsky 300 because a single engine piston driven toy like that will never perform anywhere like a twin turbine weighing 16,000 Lb empty

Edited February 3, 2016 by Cibit

[zaelu]

AG-51_Razor, I am just a "gamer" in this... so zero real life experience but I can say this:

 

Mi-8 doesn't feel really deadly while I fly it. Yes I enter the settling with power often but I always feel is because I am sloppy/careless (because hey.... is just a game). We... the "virtual" pilots are used to fly these only by the gauges with absolute zero expectations from the butt accelerometer :) so maybe we have an advantage here because we have different expectations of feed-back.

 

Also a good FFB Joystick and head tracking (not sure if you are using) could help a bit recreating the reality of the situation.

 

So I would suggest you to contact AlexandrT and the rest of the BST team that are real Mi-8 helicopter pilots, get over language barrier and try to understand how they translate their real life experience to the sim. AlexandrT said once that when he was invited to work with BST he would have not agree if the correct engineering of the simulation wouldn't have been assured. It seems he was satisfied with BST approach that he actually enjoys playing the simulation and shares stuff with us here.

 

Keep in mind that while BST is away from forums (like the last months) usually is because they work on private projects where they have professional simulators for Mi-8 (at least from what I could understand). I can guess that the professional side of the Mi-8 simulation could not exist without them being quite close to the real thing -minus the expected bugs and mishaps.

Edited February 3, 2016 by zaelu

[msalama]

I agree with Zaelu, this beastess ain't so dangerous when you get used to her. There's a distinct slot in the transition sequence from forward flight to hover where you'll encounter VRS if you're not careful, but that is easily avoided if you watch your vertical speed and add collective as needed. Nowadays I'm finding I only enter the dreaded VRS if I'm totally concentrating on something else than flying the bugger, but otherwise, no problems whatsoever.

 

And yah, just a sim pilot here with zero RL copter experience too. I've taken the controls of a 172 a couple of times though, but that hardly counts...

[AlphaOneSix]

800 feet per minute rate of descent.

 

That's around where the Mi-8 will actually settle (or enter VRS or whatever). Well, that and the usual >20% power applied and airspeed well below ETL (or near zero).

[AG-51_Razor]

I have no doubt whatsoever that my problem with this is every bit pilot error. I'm just saying that, from my prespective, this does not seem real.

 

As for the gross weight of a Hughes 300, I don't remember, it was too long ago. I can tell you though, that tyring to demonstrate settling with power in it as an instructor was very challenging. You could bring it to an out of ground effect hover and lower the collective to well over 500 fpm and then just pull pitch to stop it. Very frustrating. The helicopter that I have been flying for the last 23 years and have over 4,000 hours in is the Sikorsky S-64 Skycrane with an empty weight of 20,000+ lbs and is just as stuborn about getting into settling with power, even up towards it's max gross weight of 47,000 lbs.

 

Now don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that either of these helicopters are not susseptible to this phenomina. All I am saying is that it seems to me that it is way to easy to get into it in this simulation. An approach to an airport from a thousand feet and 220 kph begun several miles out ends up in a smoking hole 4 out of 5 times. I do understand that it is just a matter of practice and repetition, and I have acheived major strides in the several hours I have been trying to learn the Mi-8 but I really still have to believe that this helicopter, in real life, is a lot easier to fly than this. That said, the Huey has got to be one of the easiest helicopters in the world to fly and I fail miserably at that in this game! Maybe the ugly truth is, I just suck as a computer pilot :joystick:

[unknown]

I have no doubt whatsoever that my problem with this is every bit pilot error. I'm just saying that, from my prespective, this does not seem real.

 

As for the gross weight of a Hughes 300, I don't remember, it was too long ago. I can tell you though, that tyring to demonstrate settling with power in it as an instructor was very challenging. You could bring it to an out of ground effect hover and lower the collective to well over 500 fpm and then just pull pitch to stop it. Very frustrating. The helicopter that I have been flying for the last 23 years and have over 4,000 hours in is the Sikorsky S-64 Skycrane with an empty weight of 20,000+ lbs and is just as stuborn about getting into settling with power, even up towards it's max gross weight of 47,000 lbs.

 

Now don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that either of these helicopters are not susseptible to this phenomina. All I am saying is that it seems to me that it is way to easy to get into it in this simulation. An approach to an airport from a thousand feet and 220 kph begun several miles out ends up in a smoking hole 4 out of 5 times. I do understand that it is just a matter of practice and repetition, and I have acheived major strides in the several hours I have been trying to learn the Mi-8 but I really still have to believe that this helicopter, in real life, is a lot easier to fly than this. That said, the Huey has got to be one of the easiest helicopters in the world to fly and I fail miserably at that in this game! Maybe the ugly truth is, I just suck as a computer pilot :joystick:

Perhaps you shoul upload a Track-file of your approach so we can have a look what is going on/wrong? The Mi-8 is easy to hover as long as you watch your vertical speed, don't let it drop to more than 3m/s(some say 2m/s) descent with your airspeed lower than 40 km/h.

[msalama]

Maybe the ugly truth is, I just suck as a computer pilot

 

Maybe... but I'm willing to listen to you regardless, since you still have those RL hours under your belt. But then there's this guy Aleksandr here who has over 7000hrs on the type, and he says ours is pretty accurate. So I don't know...

 

Anyway, there's no "butt gauge" as the Russians call it. And this does make some things overtly hard compared to RL, does it not?

[Cibit]

Razor I started a landing thread a little while ago and lots of useful tips where posted

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=155017

and my sig has a link to some video's I have done which may or may not be useful:)

 

Also if you would like some tips for both huey and hip pop along and introduce yourself here, always a rotorhead handy to help

http://1stcavdiv.conceptbb.com/

Edited February 3, 2016 by Cibit

[Rangi]

"Elvis" saved my parents a few years ago, if that was you Razor, thank you.

[AlphaOneSix]

I really still have to believe that this helicopter, in real life, is a lot easier to fly than this.

 

It is quite a bit easier to fly in real life than in-game, in my opinion. I, however, am not the pilot, I just fly in the back. I asked one of out pilots just for giggles, and he said that you have to be descending at about 800fpm before you get into settling with power. But hey, he's a former Marine pilot, so I'm not sure I can trust him. ;)

[Ashilta]

I'm pleased I'm not the only one with any real helicopter experience (although I'm nowhere near 1100 hours, let alone 1100 hours in a given airframe!) questioning the relative ease with which DCS whirlywopters enter Vortex Ring State!

[OnlyforDCS]

Has nobody yet complained about this model's propensity for entering settling with power (or the deaded vortex ring state)??

 

I must confess that, as a professional helicopter pilot, I have traditionally kept away from desktop simulators of helicopters simply because I know just how difficult they are to master with all of the tactile input from my a$$ and nearly impossible without it. I have tried the MS Bell 206 in FSX and was greatly embarrassed. I even tried the UH-1 from Belsimtek thinking that, with 1100 hours or so in the Huey, it shouldn't be too difficult. NOT!! So, after seeing several videos of the Mi-8 in action, I was extremely impressed with how real it seemed and wanted to try it for myself. Now, I have spent the majority of my career in the utility segment of helicopter operations, doing external load work on seismic exploration projects, firefighting, logging, downtown construction jobs, powerline costruction projects, as well as the odd engineering test flight project and even about 1200 hours of dual instruction given. I am writing this, not to try to impress anyone here but rather to let you know that I am not a wannabe, or rivet counter or avid reader of text books about helicopter aerodynamics. I am just a real life helicopter pilot with about 11,000 hours of rotorwing flight time in my log book and not making this complaint about the Magnificent 8 out of ignorance.

 

I have flown along side of them while fighting fire down in Australia and they work all around us down in the Amazon basin in Peru. They are marvelous machines and fly very well under some very tuff conditions. They have a very well earned reputation of being extremely reliable and an honest helicopter to fly. The only real problem with them is that the rotor blades turn the wrong direction!! My problem with this model is that it seems to want to enter settling with power at the drop of a hat and about 4 out of 5 approaches to a landing site ends up in a smoking hole! I can assure you all that if this were anything like the real Hip, it would have a well deserved reputation as a widow maker and nobody would fly it....willingly. I love the vibrations while going through translational lift! That depiction is absolutely spot on! Both while accelerating AND decelerating. But once in a hover, it's like, the lead programer read the FAA's description of settling with power and committed it to memory and took it as gospel. I can promise you that, just because a helicopter is at zero to near zero airspeed, has 300 FPM or greater rate of descent and at least 20% power applied to the rotor system, you will not automatically enter settling with power. The Hughes/Schweitzer/Sikorsky 269/300 is an excellent example. The Sikorsky S-64 is another. I can't speak directly to the Mi-8, having never flown one, but as I said, I have fought fire right along side of one and we were going up and down the hills, into and out of the dip sites together and I can say for certain that, if that helicopter was as tricky to fly as this one in the simulation is, that pilot would have stacked his up right off the bat!!

 

I'm all for realism, and Belsimtek is right up there with the very best as far as I am concerned. But this seems to be a bit over done in my professional opinion. I'll grant y'all that the 2D, desktop, lack of tactile input part of it makes this WAY more difficult than it is in real life and any of you out there that have mastered this module, or any desktop helicopter for that matter, have my undying admiration and respect because you have accomplished something that most real helicopter pilots could never do. I am just shocked that I saw no threads in here about this "problem". Maybe it's only a problem for me??? :joystick:

 

The lead developer on the Belsimtek Mi-8 was (is) AFAIK a real life Mi-8 pilot. Can I ask you what input hardware are you using, specifically the collective?

[ESAc_matador]

Perhaps you shoul upload a Track-file of your approach so we can have a look what is going on/wrong? The Mi-8 is easy to hover as long as you watch your vertical speed, don't let it drop to more than 3m/s(some say 2m/s) descent with your airspeed lower than 40 km/h.

 

That s what I was about to say!

[mytai01]

I find that it helps to take the Mi-8 out and abuse the hell out of its flight envelope. Just go crazy with it and try not to rip parts off it. That might help you in dealing with its performance and getting used to its handling characteristics.

[AG-51_Razor]

Thanks, I'll see if I can make that happen.

[AG-51_Razor]

I am using a TM Warthawg and have the throttle inverted for the collective.

[Derbysieger]

I am using a TM Warthawg and have the throttle inverted for the collective.

 

The TM HOTAS Warthog is a great joystick for jets but not so great for helicopters due to its big heavy spring. At least not without modifications to the stick

[lmp]

Given your vast real life experience, I'm almost sure this won't be the case, but I'll ask anyway. You're not by any chance reading the vvi as 100ft/min instead of m/s? I made that mistake at first (though I'm not a helicopter pilot, all I ever flew was a paraglider ). I'm asking cause you mentioned 300ft/min, and the Mi-8 in the game will happily manage that, but at 3m/s on the other hand, which is roughly 600ft/min, your margin for error is getting indeed rather slim.

[AG-51_Razor]

Are you saying that the gage in the cockpit reads in meters per second??

[hansangb]

AG51-Razor,

You should try it with Rift. I always tended to try and fly the Huey with my eyes glued to the gauges to avoid what you're talking about. And I have three monitors with TrackIR! Then I put on Rift and *everything* changed. I could sense speed and altitude. I could make crazy ass landings. Bolt up side of a building and land on top, fly under the wires with ease, etc. What i was missing was the 3D vision and the lack of physical feedback. While Rift does nothing for inertia, just the natural 3D view made all the difference in the world. Given your real life example, I think I'd lean towards 2D world of monitors as the culprit.

 

Regardless, thanks for your perspective. Very interesting read.

[AG-51_Razor]

The TM HOTAS Warthog is a great joystick for jets but not so great for helicopters due to its big heavy spring. At least not without modifications to the stick

 

I couldn't agree more! I have managed to learn to hover fairly smoothly but it is far more work than I can remember back when I was learning at Ft Rucker! If anything, I would say that the throttle/collective is my biggest problem. I'm not sure what I'm going to do to overcome that.