Universal Model Visibility Setting Mod

[SeaQuark]

Just now discovered this mod and tried it out with latest Beta version 1.5.3.51870.58

 

It seems to work pretty great! I no longer get those balloon-like imposters from all the way across the map. But dots are nice and contrasty against the sky at a reasonable distance.

 

There are some small hiccups now and then-- the contrast of the dots seem to blink on and off at certain distances. But that is far preferable to the crazy 1.5 imposters. The mod's dots also seem to scale well while zooming in and out, which was one of the biggest issues for me with 1.5's imposters.

 

I also agree 100% with your decision to simplify enhanced visibility to either ON or OFF; consistency should be of paramount importance in a multiplayer Sim, splitting it into 4 different settings was always madness.

 

Will need to try some more flying, but so far, my impression is very favorable. Thank you so much for addressing this huge issue.

[Why485]

Just now discovered this mod and tried it out with latest Beta version 1.5.3.51870.58

 

It seems to work pretty great! I no longer get those balloon-like imposters from all the way across the map. But dots are nice and contrasty against the sky at a reasonable distance.

 

There are some small hiccups now and then-- the contrast of the dots seem to blink on and off at certain distances. But that is far preferable to the crazy 1.5 imposters. The mod's dots also seem to scale well while zooming in and out, which was one of the biggest issues for me with 1.5's imposters.

 

I also agree 100% with your decision to simplify enhanced visibility to either ON or OFF; consistency should be of paramount importance in a multiplayer Sim, splitting it into 4 different settings was always madness.

 

Will need to try some more flying, but so far, my impression is very favorable. Thank you so much for addressing this huge issue.

 

Unfortunately there's only so much I can do with the limited information and access I have, so it's not perfect by any means. There's some flickering and resizing that sometimes happens because of the way sprite sizes and aspect change that this mod exacerbates a bit.

 

Presumably an ED natively implemented solution would have none of these issues. This is more of a proof of concept to show to visualize what I think a smartly implemented model visibility setting would look like.

[Windsortheater]

This should be implemented in the official game.

[zaelu]

This should be implemented in the official game.

 

Yes, something like this but more tweaked. Maybe that's why we have so many options now so more settings are tested and analyzed. I for one I had to disable this mod after joining the "Case Blue" campaign because I couldn't see anything around me. Let alone in the distance. I had a friend flying with me and he had no mod and also imposters completely disabled and he was calling bandits while I could see anything. I had to use flak and tracers to get close to see something.

 

I think also the levels of AA and AF affect heavily this things.

[Why485]

Yes, something like this but more tweaked. Maybe that's why we have so many options now so more settings are tested and analyzed. I for one I had to disable this mod after joining the "Case Blue" campaign because I couldn't see anything around me. Let alone in the distance. I had a friend flying with me and he had no mod and also imposters completely disabled and he was calling bandits while I could see anything. I had to use flak and tracers to get close to see something.

 

I think also the levels of AA and AF affect heavily this things.

 

I think I mentioned it somewhere in this thread, if not in the OP, but if you fly with this against people who are using the vanilla settings you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. This mod doesn't make spotting easier, it makes it more realistic compared to the default settings, as well as compensates for resolution differences and a few other things.

 

I do not see this mod as the final solution to this problem. Rather I'd like to see ED use it as inspiration for a better implementation of their visibility system.

 

The problem though is that I don't know what ED thinks of the issue, or if they think an issue exists at all. For all I know they are perfectly content with the current model visibility setting and don't see it as anything more than an assist, like labels, to make the game easier. If that's the case, then I doubt they will ever be improved from where they are now. The current settings are reasonable if that's what you're going for, but I don't think that's what ED should be going for.

 

I'd love to hear ED's stance on this.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Why485

[Gliptal]

ED doesn't like giving its stance on anything but what directly brings them more money.

[chihirobelmo]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwis8d_Cv_jLAhVCJR4KHa58CSUQFgg9MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA414893&usg=AFQjCNHKm798R5vMZNOJFfz5dxX2GJwwHA&sig2=YAF950PMFgtBbKimsif_Bw&bvm=bv.118443451,d.dmo&cad=rjt

 

I have just found a dissertation about "Improving Target Orientation Discrimination Performance in Air-to-air Flight Simulation" from bmsforum. Seems BMS devs made there "Smart Scaling" (is to BMS as the "Enlargement" is to DCS) using the paper as reference. Hope this may help for something...

[zaelu]

I think I mentioned it somewhere in this thread, if not in the OP, but if you fly with this against people who are using the vanilla settings you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. This mod doesn't make spotting easier, it makes it more realistic compared to the default settings, as well as compensates for resolution differences and a few other things.

 

I do not see this mod as the final solution to this problem. Rather I'd like to see ED use it as inspiration for a better implementation of their visibility system.

 

The problem though is that I don't know what ED thinks of the issue, or if they think an issue exists at all. For all I know they are perfectly content with the current model visibility setting and don't see it as anything more than an assist, like labels, to make the game easier. If that's the case, then I doubt they will ever be improved from where they are now. The current settings are reasonable if that's what you're going for, but I don't think that's what ED should be going for.

 

I'd love to hear ED's stance on this.

 

I think the Mod would be OK... I don't mind the disadvantage if it is realistic. But in combination with big Antialiasing and Anisotropic filtering it gets really bad and even the default imposters are hard to follow plus they had that wormhole effect making you chasing mirages. Same happens up close withing model rendering where this mod does not interfere I think, because many times I had to look after the flak to find the targets just to see them coming and going out of existence in front of my eyes.

 

I think ED is testing those 3 settings for now and they also have to take into consideration how VR users will see things. PLus they have a lot of things on their hands so I am not surprised by their silence.

 

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwis8d_Cv_jLAhVCJR4KHa58CSUQFgg9MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA414893&usg=AFQjCNHKm798R5vMZNOJFfz5dxX2GJwwHA&sig2=YAF950PMFgtBbKimsif_Bw&bvm=bv.118443451,d.dmo&cad=rjt

 

I have just found a dissertation about "Improving Target Orientation Discrimination Performance in Air-to-air Flight Simulation" from bmsforum. Seems BMS devs made there "Smart Scaling" (is to BMS as the "Enlargement" is to DCS) using the paper as reference. Hope this may help for something...

 

Smart Scaling was talked around here ad nauseam and I think the current system is a smart scaling gone wrong because of how different DCS engine is from BMS. Personally I was against this but I also don't mind testing it if it will be conclusive it fails to deliver.

Edited April 11, 2016 by zaelu

[chihirobelmo]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwis8d_Cv_jLAhVCJR4KHa58CSUQFgg9MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA414893&usg=AFQjCNHKm798R5vMZNOJFfz5dxX2GJwwHA&sig2=YAF950PMFgtBbKimsif_Bw&bvm=bv.118443451,d.dmo&cad=rjt

 

I have just found a dissertation about "Improving Target Orientation Discrimination Performance in Air-to-air Flight Simulation" from bmsforum. Seems BMS devs made there "Smart Scaling" (is to BMS as the "Enlargement" is to DCS) using the paper as reference. Hope this may help for something...

 

According to the BMS manual and the referenced paper, Their object magnification even starts at 0.7 miles close.

 

 

 

This is because the paper did not only focused on the average detection range of the real pilots, but they also focused on how often the pilots correctly identified the attitude of the target, so that the training with flight simulator become as same as actual flying.

 

 

I don't know at which point DCS begins to draw impostors, but I guess there might be the problems not only on the way of drawing impostors but also on 3D object rendering. BMS way might not be the best way of course (they added smart scaling delay option for their latest updates due to the EEGS miss match and landing gear sink on runway problems), but I am not satisfied with WVR in DCS regarding to this matter. Dogfighting in current DCS1.5 forces me to increase FOV max out but then I can't guess on which direction am I seeing the bandit. When I play BMS I never had to increases FOV more then 60 while I'm on 2 circle fight with opposed F-16 aggressor.

[Golo]

According to the BMS manual and the referenced paper, Their object magnification even starts at 0.7 miles close.

...

...

This is because the paper did not only focused on the average detection range of the real pilots, but they also focused on how often the pilots correctly identified the attitude of the target, so that the training with flight simulator become as same as actual flying.

...

I don't know at which point DCS begins to draw impostors, but I guess there might be the problems not only on the way of drawing impostors but also on 3D object rendering. BMS way might not be the best way of course (they added smart scaling delay option for their latest updates due to the EEGS miss match and landing gear sink on runway problems), but I am not satisfied with WVR in DCS regarding to this matter. Dogfighting in current DCS1.5 forces me to increase FOV max out but then I can't guess on which direction am I seeing the bandit. When I play BMS I never had to increases FOV more then 60 while I'm on 2 circle fight with opposed F-16 aggressor.

 

Yes, same with me. As I said many times, I do not even care about visibility past 5miles and EDs imposters for that mater.

What I care most about is visibility in close 0-5miles...dogfighting being most critical at that.

Zooming in FOV is not and option for loosing overall SA as you said.

Figuring out visibility needs to start from 0 distance and go up, not from imposters 10-20miles away and smart scaling seems like best option of doing it.

[Why485]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwis8d_Cv_jLAhVCJR4KHa58CSUQFgg9MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA414893&usg=AFQjCNHKm798R5vMZNOJFfz5dxX2GJwwHA&sig2=YAF950PMFgtBbKimsif_Bw&bvm=bv.118443451,d.dmo&cad=rjt

 

I have just found a dissertation about "Improving Target Orientation Discrimination Performance in Air-to-air Flight Simulation" from bmsforum. Seems BMS devs made there "Smart Scaling" (is to BMS as the "Enlargement" is to DCS) using the paper as reference. Hope this may help for something...

 

Wow, I wish I had seen this sooner. I've always heard that BMS based their scaling off of research papers used in actual military simulators but I could never find a source for that. This whole paper is fascinating.

 

Thanks for pointing this out.

 

I don't know at which point DCS begins to draw impostors, but I guess there might be the problems not only on the way of drawing impostors but also on 3D object rendering.

 

For the record, there is no fixed distance at which impostors start drawing. The distance they draw is determined by the pixel size of the fighter. For example with medium settings, the model switches to an impostor when it takes up 8 pixels. As this is basically a measurement of the objects apparent size, the exact distance that it turns into an impostor varies based on the targets aspect (when head on, a target takes up less pixels, thus would switch closer), true size (a B-52 switches much further than an F-5), and screen resolution (the higher your resolution, the further the switch occurs).

Edited April 16, 2016 by Why485

[dmagebringer]

Dude... you are amazing.

Not only that you made one of the most superb posts of all times, about important matter, with

very well presented examples, etc, but you ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Amazing really.

You know what is even more amazing?

That you are finding solution,working on one of the most important problems of DCS, spending your own time, helping ED to make more money, AND THEY DON'T EVEN SHOW UP TO FREAKING THANK YOU, or at least give their own opinion, or at least give some explanations, or at least promise us they are working on this...

And I think I know why. From my point of view they are highly unorganized horde, that got

lucky with starting project, but now they are totally unable to follow growth of a story called DCS.

I m not sure they even work more than 1 hour per day. Really. They let third parties fix their problems, make all the work, implement new things, and they just collect money, hoping for the best...

 

Your work is very important for us, WW2 pilots. You can imagine why. I fly sims for more than

6 years. Tried everything that worth, and even tried Warthunder :P

Never in my life I saw more disgusting scaling system, that this one recently implemented by ID. Actually, it is even worse than previous problem.

It is total immersion killer.

That is really shame, because I can't say I tried better flight models of P51 or 109, than anywhere else. So, why are they shitting on their own work? Who knows. Probably that is what horde does.

Just that ridiculous amount of time it takes to come out with Normandy map. It is ridiculous really. Unless there is area on Mars, called Normandy, and they are actually making map of that place, and all of us misunderstood what is that all about. And Spitfire and P-47?

And you know what? I m not going to buy any of these... map, Spit, 47... or anything else, unless they fix visibility problem.

And speaking of that, none of us should! Trust me, this issue, that they don't even want to speak about now, would be fixed in 7 days then. As money flow would become unexpectedly weak, they would panic and move their asses, and fix this. I am sure.

They need either that, or really strong manager that would take things in to his own hands, and made things moving forward.

Game should be about us, not about cash flow. If we were happy, cash flow would never be the problem.

If they don't do this.. they will loose part of WW2 community. The day Battle of Stalingrad crew starts moving things West, and come up with the first planes of Western Alies, and they already did with P-40, they will become core of WW2 sims, and new legendary thins, that old

IL-2 1946 already is.

Sorry ED for all the critique I posted here. But trust me, it is meant for the good. I just hate to see such great models as P51 and 109, fade and die with the time, never reaching full potential.

And for you Why485: well done, cheers! I can't wait to get home and try your mode.

 

 

TheHoncho

~S~

Edited April 28, 2016 by dmagebringer

[chihirobelmo]

For the record, there is no fixed distance at which impostors start drawing. The distance they draw is determined by the pixel size of the fighter. For example with medium settings, the model switches to an impostor when it takes up 8 pixels. As this is basically a measurement of the objects apparent size, the exact distance that it turns into an impostor varies based on the targets aspect (when head on, a target takes up less pixels, thus would switch closer), true size (a B-52 switches much further than an F-5), and screen resolution (the higher your resolution, the further the switch occurs).

 

Thanks, I got it.

According to your post, It seems ED has implemented the "Enlargement" option only to increase detection distance ability, but not to increase model size enough to be able to make accurate orientation judgements at the appropriate ranges.

 

I also wonder why enlargement setting goes OFF when I choose "SIMULATION" presets of setting. Is ED really implementing "Enlargement" as a option that is "Not realistic but will help player to tally like labels do"? Hope they are not.

 

Anyway thanks for your great mod! I'll use it until the official updates solve the problem.

[Why485]

Thanks, I got it.

According to your post, It seems ED has implemented the "Enlargement" option only to increase detection distance ability, but not to increase model size enough to be able to make accurate orientation judgements at the appropriate ranges.

 

I also wonder why enlargement setting goes OFF when I choose "SIMULATION" presets of setting. Is ED really implementing "Enlargement" as a option that is "Not realistic but will help player to tally like labels do"? Hope they are not.

 

Anyway thanks for your great mod! I'll use it until the official updates solve the problem.

 

That's the real question, isn't it? Did ED implement this with the intent of it being a realistic solution to a problem plaguing DCS for years? Or was the intent just to have an alternative to labels?

 

Frankly, I think it's the latter. ED showed no interest in the slightest until they started experimenting with VR, a situation which greatly exacerbates all the spotting problems. The way the system works plays right into the low pixel densities and limitations of current VR headsets, and I don't think that, or the timing, is a coincidence.

 

By this point, I've given up all hope of model visibility ever getting the treatment it deserves. I get the impression that ED genuinely doesn't believe the inability to see aircraft is a problem. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong, but ED doesn't ever talk about these kinds of things so I can only go by their actions, and their actions have not been encouraging.

 

Inspired by the paper you posted earlier in the thread, I experimented with the scaling method they described. The combination of reading the paper and seeing the result of it first hand really changed my mind on a lot of things I had previously thought about aircraft visibility and how it should work.

 

I'd post a direct quote and the video itself, but I can tell you from my own experience that doing such things is grounds for a ban on these forums. If you're interested in those experiments and my thoughts on how they apply to DCS check out this link. TL;DR: This is a solved problem, and it's a solution that DCS needs.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Why485

[Gliptal]

In the meantime, I'm still using your Mod.

[klem]

Why485,

 

can you tell me if this mod is effective as a server-side setting or is it only 'local' to the PC I am flying on regardless of the server preferences?

[Why485]

Why485,

 

can you tell me if this mod is effective as a server-side setting or is it only 'local' to the PC I am flying on regardless of the server preferences?

 

It's local to your computer. There's no way currently for the server to force the mod on clients.

 

If you join a vanilla server with the mod activated, you would actually be putting yourself at a disadvantage in most cases because this makes the impostors overall more difficult to spot than the medium and large settings. Versus small, impostors should be easier to see at close range while vanilla would be easier to see at a distance.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Why485

[Shahdoh]

That is actually incorrect. The server does enforce the setting. What's true is there is no in game setting to do this (initial mission creation pulls the option from the creators settings). But, if you open the mission and edit the value in the "options" file, the server can thus change/enforce the setting.

 

The VA uses this setting:

["impostors"] = "small",

[St3v3f]

That's something different. The mission enforces a setting, but the mod changes what is made out of it. And with the mod enabled, impostors are smaller than vanilla, regardless of the setting that is enforced

[Shahdoh]

Ah, sorry, got lost in what thread I was in, didn't notice the was for the mod. My apologies.

[klem]

Thanks for the information guys. Yes, I can see now that the Options file captures the mission builders current setting so can enforce Small/Medium/Large. As pointed out, what that actually means can be overridden by the local imposters.lua values.

 

Having played around with these settings it can definitely help or even hinder distant imposter detection. I think the vanilla settings aren't very good (WHY485's do seem better) but the ED enlargements go too far for the imposters, particularly on fade or lack of it. I know they will be popular for gameplay and that's fine for those that want to use them.

 

However, for me, the more fundamental problem remains. The Models themselves are harder to see than in RL and that creates a real problem for eyeball dogfighting. I live 3 km from my local airport (light aircraft) and can see clearly the aircraft in the air against a clear sky and even quite well at 4km in the approach. Against cloud it is even easier. They are clearer than seen in DCS. They are not necessarily full contrasted and I may not be able to be sure what type it is but I have no problems picking the shapes out against the sky at 3-4km. ED seem to wash out the model contrast too much too quickly. Now if someone has a fix or that......

 

Also, they may be technically perfect on size but we all know the problems of monitors vs the Mk1 eyeball.

 

I think the reason the vanilla imposters (imposters off) are too hard to see is that they start from the poor position of the Model contrast and are designed not to give a step increase in contrast when they kick in. As a result of the model visibility problem the step increase in contrast when the imposters do kick in can easily be seen in Enlargements, even with WHY485's universal imposter settings.

[x39crazy]

In general I love this mod, however I have a pretty major Hangup that keeps me from using it.

All is good until other aircraft get between 300 and 500 meters or so, where they completely vanish unless I zoom way in. Really kills it for my Messerschmitt flying.

Perhaps I have done something incorrectly with this mod?

[Haukka81]

+1 For this to be in stock dcs.

[Brigg]

In general I love this mod, however I have a pretty major Hangup that keeps me from using it.

All is good until other aircraft get between 300 and 500 meters or so, where they completely vanish unless I zoom way in. Really kills it for my Messerschmitt flying.

Perhaps I have done something incorrectly with this mod?

 

That's interesting x39crazy. Does any other of the ww2 warbird pilots suffer from the same thing?

Edited June 22, 2016 by Brigg

[x39crazy]

I'd be curious as well.

Tested in a repaired mod-free install and my leaders/wingmen/opponents would vanish.