Virtual reality headsets: Only of use when experienced with a module? mouse&keyboard?

[Jamesp1]

Note: Unsure if this is in the right section; mods: Please feel free to move this.

 

I'm beginning to shop for a VR headset (either HTC Vive or Oculus Rift) and am unsure on a couple of points:

When playing DCS I spend a fair amount of time, especially when new to a module, with the game referring to/using keyboard shortcuts or just looking up the right method to do something.

I also click a lot of virtual buttons!

 

When you guys with VR headsets are using them with DCS, how do you deal with these issues?

I assume you have to have everything mapped to a HOTAS or other control you can use by feel and cannot use a mouse to click buttons, so do you have the headset off for the startup and only put it on when you're ready to taxi?

What about when you need to use the keyboard/mouse? Take the headset off?

And obviously having to look up info would require the headset to come off as well.

 

So, would you initially not play a module with the headset until you are familiar with all the controls and have an extensive HOTAS setup?

 

One last thing: If you then need a monitor running as well, does this mean the computer has to render the image three times (one for each eye and a central view for the monitor)?

 

Thanks for the advice,

 

James

[ricktoberfest]

I don't own a VR device, but using the mouse should be no problem at all. You don't need to see it to move it in fact you shouldn't really need to see your keyboard to use it for most things either.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jamesp1]

I assumed the mouse wouldn't be rendered at the correct depth?

Maybe this kind of thing is solved now but I know it used to be a big problem when using a mouse in 3D

[Hadwell]

the mouse doesn't have correct depth, but you can fiddle around with it and use mouse click anyway, but the real reason 3d headsets won't be really practical is the pixel density, it's way less than even 1080p on a 27" screen outside of a headset, because the screen is so close to your face.

 

for example, if you made a 19" screen in 3D on your computer and viewed it through the DK2 it would only have maybe a 120x200 resolution if you viewed it from about a in-game/engine foot away, and the further away from the virtual screen you get, the lower the resolution gets from there.

 

what we'd need, in order to get the same pixel density of a normal 2D monitor outside of a headset, is something more like dual 5k displays, though twice that would be better, because, as i said, the more distance you get from something, the less resolution it is, unlike real life where the resolution stays the same, the thing just looks smaller.

 

so then, even when we do get high enough resolution displays... how do you build a PC to run a game at over 100 fps with dual 5k or even higher resolution displays?

 

right now, VR is pretty much a novelty thing, we have enough CPU power to give some convincing demonstrations, but until PC hardware can run a 3d headset with enough resolution to make a (current) 2D monitors pixel density look bad while the thing is on your face, it's impractical.

 

current 3D headset apps have graphics akin to playstation 2 and early playstation 3 era games, they mostly use the unity engine and low resolution textures....

 

so basically the problem is "can't see shit", not so much an input problem for DCS... well at least for me, since i have an x-55 and can pretty well do anything without taking my hands off the stick and throttle.

 

until a virtual 27" display is at least 1440p from 4 virtual feet away (not happening any time soon), VR headsets are not as good as my 2D monitor.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Hadwell

[hansangb]

I find DK2 to quite usable. I can't read every gauge or symbology w/o leaning in, but I'm told CV1 is much better. I'd *GLADLY* sacrifice CRYSTAL CLEAR for the realism that VR adds *any* day.

[hannibal]

VR headsets are the only gaming solution for me. as much as i tried, i hate using trackIR, and using the hat to change view points is a major turn off.

 

i wait patiently for the upcoming rift.

[Chivas]

Most DCS users have a Hotas system with much of their inputs mapped to it. Using a mouse shouldn't be a problem. If people can't move their hand a foot or so off their joystick, to their mouse position, they have bigger problems to worry about.

 

The DK2 wasn't good enough visually to be a consumer product, and the jury is still out on the CV1 consumer versions, as anyone who's tried them in flight sims have said very little, other than its night and day better than the DK2. There is little doubt that people will be able to read the gauges with these new VR headsets, but spotting distant objects could still be a problem. We should know the answer to that very soon.

 

Most people that have tried VR in flight sims, find themselves having very little interest in going back to fly with a monitor and trackIr, the immersion level is that good. I think the first consumer versions of VR headsets will still have issues, but it won't stop early adopters from flying exclusively with their VR headsets.

[wormeaten]

On youtube one guy using trackball attached on knee instead of mouse using cockpit instruments and switches.

 

Other solution is leapmotion for using your hands in virtual space.

[cichlidfan]

Other solution is leapmotion for using your hands in virtual space.

 

:megalol:

 

You have never used one, have you?

[FeistyLemur]

I see people saying they don't need to see their controls, I don't know how. I can't ever envision a VR headset working well unless you went full in cockpit clicking and hotas controls only.

 

I mean close your eyes, put your hands at your sides, then try quickly pressing a 2 modifier random key combo.

[Chivas]

I see people saying they don't need to see their controls, I don't know how. I can't ever envision a VR headset working well unless you went full in cockpit clicking and hotas controls only.

 

I mean close your eyes, put your hands at your sides, then try quickly pressing a 2 modifier random key combo.

 

A keyboard would be relatively easy if you can touch type, a mouse would be much easier. Personally I map everything to my four piece Hotas system, and use VAC for radio commands, and any other function I don't have room for on my Hotas system. I can also easily find a light switch in the dark. ;)

[FeistyLemur]

A keyboard would be relatively easy if you can touch type, a mouse would be much easier. Personally I map everything to my four piece Hotas system, and use VAC for radio commands, and any other function I don't have room for on my Hotas system. I can also easily find a light switch in the dark. ;)

 

I can touch type perfectly fine. Over 60 words per minute.

 

I can't take my hand from my side off my throttle and quickly press ctrl shift {key}. If you can when your hands aren't oriented to the keyboard and your eyes are covered I'd love to see it. Pressing complex key combos is a lot different than finding a light switch. My toggle switch box is a dead simple grid and if I don't glance at it with peripheral vision I can even make mistakes and flip the wrong switch. I'm sure it will be fine for FPS games. I can't see it working well for more complex sim modules. Unless you plan to learn braille or something.

Edited March 4, 2016 by FeistyLemur

[Frusheen]

I can touch type perfectly fine. Over 60 words per minute.

 

I can't take my hand from my side off my throttle and quickly press ctrl shift {key}. If you can when your hands aren't oriented to the keyboard and your eyes are covered I'd love to see it. Pressing complex key combos is a lot different than finding a light switch. My toggle switch box is a dead simple grid and if I don't glance at it with peripheral vision I can even make mistakes and flip the wrong switch. I'm sure it will be fine for FPS games. I can't see it working well for more complex sim modules. Unless you plan to learn braille or something.

 

I use a trackball in clickable cockpits. Voice attack with Vaicom for Comms and the buttons on my controls. I never have to touch the keyboard for the modules I fly. Who wants to fly a flight sim on a keyboard! It's the reason people build switch boxes in the first place i.e to increase immersion. What's more immersive than being inside the virtual cockpit? I much prefer to be flying in VR than using a button simulator.

 

EDIT: to the op. You are correct that for a new module you will probably want to run through the various routines, procedures and workflows a bit on a monitor so you can refer to a manual. Once you know the systems things become easier.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Frusheen

[FeistyLemur]

I use a trackball in clickable cockpits. Voice attack with Vaicom for Comms and the buttons on my controls. I never have to touch the keyboard for the modules I fly. Who wants to fly a flight sim on a keyboard! It's the reason people build switch boxes in the first place i.e to increase immersion. What's more immersive than being inside the virtual cockpit. I much prefer to be flying in VR than using a button simulator.

 

I also use Vaicom, a full TM warthog hotas setup, and a custom toggle panel I made with 15 additional switches.

 

I don't use much on the keyboard either, but I do still use it for some things. And I find using toggle switches without being able to glance at them frustrating as well. I'd much rather glance and hit the switch quickly than feel around the whole setup looking for the one I want and still make a mistake at a crucial point.

 

VR would have to be really, really amazing to make fumbling around blind worth it for me in sims. Now if you could make hand motion controls that weren't clunky and awful that allowed me to have a virtual avatar in the plane that actually was pleasant to use and interact with the clickable cockpit, I would be down for that. Until then though, I think I'll pass on vr.

Edited March 4, 2016 by FeistyLemur

[Chivas]

I can touch type perfectly fine. Over 60 words per minute.

 

I can't take my hand from my side off my throttle and quickly press ctrl shift {key}. If you can when your hands aren't oriented to the keyboard and your eyes are covered I'd love to see it. Pressing complex key combos is a lot different than finding a light switch. My toggle switch box is a dead simple grid and if I don't glance at it with peripheral vision I can even make mistakes and flip the wrong switch. I'm sure it will be fine for FPS games. I can't see it working well for more complex sim modules. Unless you plan to learn braille or something.

 

Real pilots were trained to find all the switches, and levers blindfolded. You will have no problem with a little practice. The immersion level of VR will give you the impetus to make it happen.

[Frusheen]

 

VR would have to be really, really amazing to make fumbling around blind worth it for me in sims.

 

It is really amazing. That's the point. I appreciate what your saying about button boxes and key combos etc. of course that will present challenges. It boils down to what you want to get out of the experience I guess. If you find it rewarding and get satisfaction from doing the correct workflow at the correct time and completing the objective then that's great too. There's nothing wrong with that and your success will probably suffer if trying to do that in VR. Putting on the headset and looking around the confined space of the cockpit in proper scale and 3D is just more rewarding for some of us. I'm willing to sacrifice the ability for quick cockpit interaction with some functions for the sheer awe of flying in VR and limiting interaction to the methods I've mentioned.

 

It's early days in VR and things will only improve. When resolution improves and we get haptic gloves in DCS then I think even the most doubting flight simmers will be converted :-)

[FeistyLemur]

That is kind of what I get my satisfaction out of in sims. Learning all the complex controls and the different procedures, as well as building panels. If I had the space I would build a full proper sim pit separate from my desk.

 

Maybe when there's a better interface and the resolution is better it will be more interesting to me.

[Frusheen]

That is kind of what I get my satisfaction out of in sims. Learning all the complex controls and the different procedures, as well as building panels. If I had the space I would build a full proper sim pit separate from my desk.

 

Maybe when there's a better interface and the resolution is better it will be more interesting to me.

 

:thumbup: nothing wrong with that.

[TomOnSteam]

I'm not sure how good the external overlay is on the HTC Vive, but it might be possible that you will be able to see your real life buttons overlayed into the VR helmet.

[hansangb]

I see people saying they don't need to see their controls, I don't know how. I can't ever envision a VR headset working well unless you went full in cockpit clicking and hotas controls only.

 

I mean close your eyes, put your hands at your sides, then try quickly pressing a 2 modifier random key combo.

 

That's why I'm building a switch box. I don't want to touch the keyboard, so I'll map the important ones to my switch box.

[Vedexent]

If you're a highly proficient touch typist @ 60 wpm, then you know that the F and J have raised dots on them, so you can orient your hands to the correct keys, by touch alone, in a split second, right?

 

You're right that a keyboard is less convenient with a VR headset, but it's not useless.

 

That said, I already don't use the keyboard with a monitor, trackir, and HOTAS.

 

Plane controls I use HOTAS mappings for core functions, clickable cockpit switches for functions only used sporadically. FC3 aircraft are simple enough that you can map everything to HOTAS, especially if using command modes.

 

Radio menus I handle with a custom Voice Attack profile.

 

If I have to reach for the keyboard, it's usually to pause the game, and map an omission to the HOTAS, or fine tune VA.

 

Personally, I don't like keyboard inputs: they're not realistic. Unless it's an Airbus A380 (and possibly other tubeliners contemporary to it), planes don't feature keyboards as primary controls.

 

Whatever works for you, works for you - there's no "one right way" - and if you wanted to use Kinect and interpretive dance to control your plane, that's your business.

 

But I don't think a VR headset will be a problem for the vast majority of simmers.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Vedexent

[FeistyLemur]

If you're a highly proficient touch typist @ 60 wpm, then you know that the F and J have raised dots on them, so you can orient your hands to the correct keys, by touch alone, in a split second, right?

 

You're right that a keyboard is less convenient with a VR headset, but it's not useless.

 

That said, I already don't use the keyboard with a monitor, trackir, and HOTAS.

 

Plane controls I use HOTAS mappings for core functions, clickable cockpit switches for functions only used sporadically. FC3 aircraft are simple enough that you can map everything to HOTAS, especially if using command modes.

 

Radio menus I handle with a custom Voice Attack profile.

 

If I have to reach for the keyboard, it's usually to pause the game, and map an omission to the HOTAS, or fine tune VA.

 

Personally, I don't like keyboard inputs: they're not realistic. Unless it's an Airbus A380 (and possibly other tubeliners contemporary to it), planes don't feature keyboards as primary controls.

 

Whatever works for you, works for you - there's no "one right way" - and if you wanted to use Kinect and interpretive dance to control your plane, that's your business.

 

But I don't think a VR headset will be a problem for the vast majority of simmers.

 

So your solution is I take both hands off my controls, orient them to my keyboard by looking for the f and j, the keyboard is also in front of my stick mounted vertically I might add.

 

Um no, and if you say you can press random 2 modifier combos in a "split second" with accuracy, with your eyes closed, Then ok Batman.

[KLR Rico]

I can't ever envision a VR headset working well unless you went full in cockpit clicking and hotas controls only.

 

That's what I'm doing. Between a X52 with the pinky button as a modifier and using the mouse, I don't use the keyboard for any flying task.

 

I can't see how anyone that's tried VR would even consider flying with a monitor, but I have to remember people have different tastes. I guess it's the same thing as accepting that Justin Beiber is popular.

[ricktoberfest]

So your solution is I take both hands off my controls, orient them to my keyboard by looking for the f and j, the keyboard is also in front of my stick mounted vertically I might add.

 

Um no, and if you say you can press random 2 modifier combos in a "split second" with accuracy, with your eyes closed, Then ok Batman.

 

 

I don't look at my keyboard. I leave my right hand on the stick (which is just to the right of the keyboard). I can use my left hand to find the right key by feel in about 1/2 a second, faster than looking usually. Any key combo that doesn't use left shift or left control I have programmed to my joystick. Any weird combo that you need quickly should be reprogrammed to be easier. Even looking for the key takes too long for say releasing chaff or flares.

 

In other words, nearly all required keystrokes can be programmed to be on the left side of the keyboard and done by feel very quickly.

 

Deciding that you can't do it means that you won't ever be able to

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cripple]

 

Deciding that you can't do it means that you won't ever be able to

 

 

+1

 

Yes, using a VR headset will require a different approach to input than one might be used to. However let's be mindful of what the keyboard is actually designed for: the entry of alphanumeric data. Nor are they used in the real world for flying aircraft, any more than I would use a hotas setup with 26 keys for typing a letter...blindfold. I mean I could, but it wouldn't be the best peripheral for doing so.

 

Yes, you will probably need to learn how to do certain things in-the-dark. This is no different from how real (military) pilots train, and have done for some years (I have a WW2 log that mentions being signed off on blindfolded checks). Nor is it any different from playing dakka-quake-2000 (or whatever) used the wsad-etc keys, plus numeric to change weapons etc. It's just a matter of learning new (or different) skills.

 

No, you shouldn't need to run a monitor as well. How would you see it with the googles on anyway?

 

As an aside, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when typists worked on manual typewriters they used to take a hand off the keys to operate the old carriage return. They were still able to touch-type. Experience, that's how.