How do I survive F-15s?

[DieHard]

I find hiding from the FC3, F-15's radar to be impossible unless, once spotted, and I survive the initial attack, I can get on the ground quickly and dead-stopped / no rotors rotation.

 

Me being down low, flying feet off the ground, but no dust / wake cloud, in the ground clutter, I don't think the F-15 should be able to find me so easily.

 

I think ED has the F-15's radar too simplistic and is my biggest gripe in Multiplayer.

 

Thoughts?

 

Criticism?

Edited March 12, 2016 by DieHard

[BIGNEWY]

If your rotor is spinning you are a big target, as far as I am aware that is true in real life as well ( I remember reading it somewhere).

 

ED as far as I can tell have done the best they can to get as close to real life, but if you have data that suggest different please share it.

[probad]

you'd get punished even harder irl for flying a ka-50 around when the other side has free reign to engage over your ao

 

maybe you should complain to your team to tighten up cap

[Reaper6]

When flying from place to place: Set your Shkval to scan(1.0-1.5) just above the horizon, select A/A and A/A HO. This is what I generally do, along with keeping my head on a swivel. More times than not(especially with 1.5) you can spot them first. Generally they will come after you with guns, or once in a while heaters. Either way, more times than not I can get a pair of Vikhrs off before they can even fire on me. AND STAY IN CITIES AND TOWNS!

 

As for their radar, it makes no difference. If they know you are in the area they will just select up heaters and that will generally find you. But usually they have to go lower and slower than they normally would. And that's when you give them a couple Vikhrs to think about(while they're ejecting), because they will get absolutley no warning they are coming.

 

Reaper6

[Frostie]

The NCTR on an F-15s radar can determine the fighter type, eg. F-16, F-18 etc. by the blades in the engine, this should give you a good indication of how loud spinning blades can be in the radar world.

[kilix]

modern radars utilise doppler effect for target acquisition. A spinning helicopter rotor enhances this effect, so no wonder, that helicopter RCS is huge, especially when viewed from above. So BIGNEWY is right ofcourse, there is nothing unrealistic about it. And really nothing we, as helicopter pilots, can do about it. We stick out as a sore thumb.

source:

[ame=http://dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/1947/10130/3/DSTO-TR-2547%20PR.pdf]http://dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/1947/10130/3/DSTO-TR-2547%20PR.pdf[/ame]

 

I read through it, even thou I don't understand all of that :)

TLDR: helicopter RCS is huge thanks to doppler effect happening on rotor blades. Modern radars can even recognize helicopter type by the typical backscatter it receives. That document is all about simulation of this effect and analysis of data acquired by radar. By the acquired data, one can analyze the radar return from helicopter and can recognize characteristic return from helicopter fuselage, helicopter engines, tail rotor, main rotor and various other parts of the helicopter. Spinning rotor disc is one huge source of return signal, which is strongest when viewed (of course) from above.

Edited March 12, 2016 by kilix

[RvETito]

The lack of RWR is probably the biggest disadvantage of the Ka-50. Even the Mi-24 being produced much earlier has at least the SPO-15.

[Isegrim]

I think its more a DCS MP-Missions Problem.

 

T-Zones in Flat areas and the Point that other Clients in Fighterplanes know where you are Coming from and where you try to go are the bigger deal in my Opinion.

 

Also unfairness by other Clients and Teamplay at around Zero are a reason why KA-50 Pilots get punished on PvP Servers.

 

I remember Joining a Empty PvP Server.

Me Joining Red - KA-50

 

20-25 Minutes later there have been 16 x F-15 Clients on Blue side

and 2x SU-27 on Red.

 

I also cant understand why mission builders on big PvP servers do not set up Captureable FARPs close to all different Target zones.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Why not set up a lure zone in mission to drag F-15s towards it?

[Oceandar]

Well I was just being hunting by a flanker today in MP. While it seem the pilot not (yet) very skilfull but it was really annoying, I mean c'mon man finish it and kill me quickly lol.

First it launched 2 R27 missiles at me and it all kissed the ground. Second it tried gunning me but missed too. He just buzzing me around. I couldn't shoot him back because I already lost my skhval. What I do was exploiting the tree, since atm in DCS we all can fly through tree safely (yeah I know its cheating and not very smart tactics) and finally made it back to base :D

 

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Edited March 15, 2016 by Oceandar

[Sweep]

I find hiding from the FC3, F-15's radar to be impossible unless, once spotted, and I survive the initial attack, I can get on the ground quickly and dead-stopped / no rotors rotation.

 

Me being down low, flying feet off the ground, but no dust / wake cloud, in the ground clutter, I don't think the F-15 should be able to find me so easily.

 

I think ED has the F-15's radar too simplistic and is my biggest gripe in Multiplayer.

 

Thoughts?

 

Criticism?

 

You just wait until BST (hopefully) gives us an ASM F-15C...You'll be crying all day every day about the radar then. :joystick:

 

Just a little FYI, in the 90s F-15Cs shot down two Blackhawks that were flying low level in some mountains. IIRC they acquired them from about 40 nmi. ;)

 

BTW, I think that was on Wikipedia about acquisition range, don't remember...

Edited March 15, 2016 by Sweep
Because I can?

[GGTharos]

RL F-15's don't have any problems whatsoever finding and tracking helicopters. They'll pick up the doppler shift for the rotors alone at significant range.

 

You may be aware of the famous GBU kill against a chopper by an F-15E. There is a very good account of this incident,and it went like this:

 

The helicopter was detected from 50nm away while on the ground with its rotors spinning. The APG-70 in air to air mode for the entire duration of the attack (the F-15E was flying 5000' AGL, IIRC).

 

Once the heli was detected and tracked on radar, the WSO slaved the targeting pod to the radar, and used it for long range ID of the helicopter. At that point, because the heli was on the ground and stationary, they decided to use a GBU to destroy it. When they dropped the GBU, the heli took off, but the GBU hit anyway.

 

Lucky for you, ED allows the notch to work for helicopters even though this should not be then case. Likewise, you get reduced radar and IR signature, even though that should not be the case.

 

In other words, you're complaining about nothing.

 

Now, the AI might be better at finding you than human players ... that's a different complaint :)

 

 

@Sweep: You can find out range and aspect if you read the position of the aircraft carefully. And yes, it was ~40nm.

 

 

I find hiding from the FC3, F-15's radar to be impossible unless, once spotted, and I survive the initial attack, I can get on the ground quickly and dead-stopped / no rotors rotation.

 

Me being down low, flying feet off the ground, but no dust / wake cloud, in the ground clutter, I don't think the F-15 should be able to find me so easily.

 

I think ED has the F-15's radar too simplistic and is my biggest gripe in Multiplayer.

 

Thoughts?

 

Criticism?

[Vedexent]

I think Isegrim has it right - it's an issue with MP mission design.

 

RL deployment doctrine for helos does not put them in a theater with enemy fast-movers, with no CAP.

 

Put up a pretty typical "everyone against everyone PvP" mission on a server, and make Helos an option, and they die. Hell - A2G aircraft die as well.

 

However, making a multi-layered, nuanced, realistic mission design takes time and effort - and does not lend it'self well to "drop in traffic".

 

Best you're likely to see - out of a pre-planned (multi) squadron event - is an MP mission where helos are protected from fast-movers because the fast-movers aren't there.

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

That's the right idea.

[Frostie]

There are servers without fighter harassment but without the numbers, I don't know what is expected here. You enter a busy server in which the mission is clearly pvp and has fighters then expect to be shot down. You either relish the challenge or join a more sedate server and do the taskings set out without harrasment from fighters.

 

I don't understand the desire to join a busy pvp server based on all aircraft by those that just want to rack up ground kills without facing competition the two don't marry up so why expect something else.

[GGTharos]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Frostie again.

 

All I wanted to say is that some nail out there is taking a lot of advil/tylenol right now. :D

[DAZnBLAST]

Yup, you shouldn't be flying around with no friendly CAP. Look at the way the Red Flag SP missions play out to see how it should actually work.

 

Way back in the day the 355th Flying Tigers (CAS), JaBoG32 (CAS and CAP) with and a load of other squads use to set-up campaign type missions including TS with whispers enabled to simulate CAS talking to CAP etc. God them were the days, and how it should be done :)

Edited March 16, 2016 by DAZnBLAST

[OneBlueSky]

Yup, you shouldn't be flying around with no friendly CAP. Look at the way the Red Flag SP missions play out to see how it should actually work.

 

Way back in the day the 355th Flying Tigers (CAS), JaBoG32 (CAS and CAP) with and a load of other squads use to set-up campaign type missions including TS with whispers enabled to simulate CAS talking to CAP etc. God them were the days, and how it should be done :)

 

That sounds like SO much fun!

 

But yeah OP, that's how you survive F-15s. Much like in real life, you have friendly CAP that swats them down for you before they're ever your problem to worry about. Outside that, you just hope and pray :D

[Slazi]

Mission design is the key. From my experience, most multiplayer missions add helicopters as an afterthought.

[Elwood]

Honestly a ka50 shouldn't fly without air superiority or heavy AA. Isn't?

[LIONPRIDE]

one tactic ~

 

This is a tactic I learned from back in my Janes Longbow & EECH days ~ Richard Hawley did a great graphic representation in one of the users-manuals; you turn towards the enemy fast-mover so that it makes the attack angle incredibly steep and cuts the time they have you as a target down considerably. This technique, couple with cover use to greatly add to my odds in survival in those sims. I hadn't flown a great deal of missions in BS2 before shelving it. I will have to give it a try some time down the road.

 

 

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